2019 Subaru Ascent Mid-sized SUV - True 3-row vehicle

[SBT]

Mega thanks. Have been trying to visualize this from the numbers only, and that doesn't tell nearly enough of the story.

 

 

And, FWIW, I don't get the narrow tire on the Ascent, but I guess to get the mileage (MPGs) they need out of this platform. But it just looks like it needs some hunker-down meat at the corners, a la BMW X5ish... Of course, you'd have to have some ridiculously light (16lb) wheels to not rob too much power from the 2.4T.

 

 

[covertrussian]

Agreed, side by side pictures really helped me visualize it and understand that it is actually an upgrade (higher roof will really help with carrying drywall sheets, those have been tricky in my Outback...)

 

As for wider tires, I actually wish they stuck to even smaller tires. My ~300whp LGT had plenty of straightline traction on 215/50/17's all season tires, even in the freezing temps.

 

Now as for wide tire drawbacks? There are plenty actually:

• Worse in rain (more hydroplane prone)
  
• Worse in icy slush, but better in dense packed or deep snow, since they wont dig in (same effect as deflating the tires).
  
• Worse Fuel Economy
  
• More Expensive to buy
  
• But most importantly, increases cornering traction. Why is this a negative? On a high roll center SUV increased grip can cause roll over. Narrower tires will give out and start sliding before the SUV reaches it's tipping point. We are actually seeing this in Autocross even on Fiesta's and Fiat's!
  

Edited November 22, 2018 by covertrussian

[ehsnils]

Wider tires aren't necessarily better in snow though.

[covertrussian]

Wider tires aren't necessarily better in snow though.

 

You're correct, narrow tires are better in most snow conditions too, until there is so much of it that it's better to glide ontop instead cutting in (actually had to use this tactic last winter here in VA, made a night and day difference). This is where deflating the tires helps, since it increases the overall surface area, wide tires have the same effect.

 

I updated my bullet point to clarify this:

Worse in icy slush, but better in dense packed or deep snow, since they wont dig in (same effect as deflating the tires).

 

In the end, unless you are racing/cornering hard on a low CG car, wide tires suck

Edited November 22, 2018 by covertrussian

[TwoTone]

Ouch- finally went to build one because we are close to purchasing- really hate that the moonroof can only be added as part of expensive packages I don't want or need.

[SBT]

Agreed, side by side pictures really helped me visualize it and understand that it is actually an upgrade (higher roof will really help with carrying drywall sheets, those have been tricky in my Outback...)

 

As for wider tires, I actually wish they stuck to even smaller tires. My ~300whp LGT had plenty of straightline traction on 215/50/17's all season tires, even in the freezing temps.

 

Now as for wide tire drawbacks? There are plenty actually:

• Worse in rain (more hydroplane prone)
  
• Worse in icy slush, but better in dense packed or deep snow, since they wont dig in (same effect as deflating the tires).
  
• Worse Fuel Economy
  
• More Expensive to buy
  
• But most importantly, increases cornering traction. Why is this a negative? On a high roll center SUV increased grip can cause roll over. Narrower tires will give out and start sliding before the SUV reaches it's tipping point. We are actually seeing this in Autocross even on Fiesta's and Fiat's!
  

 

 

Once you see the Ascent's interior laydown, you get how much bigger it is, but you don't see just how far and high that "bigness" stretches until you see it in perspective to the Outback. Would really like to see it similarly aligned with a Tribeca since that is what it replaces.

 

 

 

FWIW - I only run a wider tire in the Summer, and then it's the best dry and wet performing tire I can get - and not on overtly large diameter wheels in order not to raise the CG even more. For Winter driving I drop down to the narrowest tire I can source that will fit the wheel and give me the narrowest profile with a solid performing winter tire to cut down through and not float on the snow, slush and ice. But we don't get deep snow here, or would rethink/go with a slightly wider winter tire.

[FLlegacy]

Narrow tires would also mean understeer to the max...but I do like that the tires aren't nearly truck sized like the Tribecas were.

[covertrussian]

Off-Roading and snow driving videos are starting to show up on Youtube. One particular one that caught my eye is this video, at 2:00 he takes the Ascent up to 20% grade:http://youtu.be/f4Vnbmk5W5M?t=122

 

That's the CVT slipping, overheating and TCU/ECU pulling all power and preventing the tires from free spinning, even with traction control off. TFLCar saw the same issue when taking the Outback up the Goldmine hill at around 10:00:

 

That unfortunately is a deal breaker for me, I don't do extreme off-roading but I have a ton of hills, my driveway is probably 15-20% grade, and my parents is 20-25% grade. In snow/slush/ice my 6MT Outback will make it up both, even with TC on, with enough speed, but it's really unsafe to try to carry required speed when entering either of the driveways. If I stop at bottom of the driveway only way to make it up is to turn off TC. Which my Outback will make it up my driveway, but it will spin the tires a lot while doing it, this would overheat the CVT in no time.

 

Here's to hoping for Subaru to go to a 6-8 speed Auto, like the new Rav 4 or Highlander. Or better yet, a Limited Ascent in 6MT

[xt2005bonbon]

Dedicated stud less snow tires during winter then, no?

 

 

I still own a set of Nokian Hakkapellita studded snow tires. Man, when I put these on, the car is almost unstoppable!

[covertrussian]

Dedicated stud less snow tires during winter then, no?

 

 

I still own a set of Nokian Hakkapellita studded snow tires. Man, when I put these on, the car is almost unstoppable!

 

I live in a climate that goes from 20F in the morning to 50F going home for lunch. Snow tires would burn up really quickly, and it doesn't snow quite enough to justify them. This is why I have AWD cars now, AWD on all seasons is good enough up to 1ft of snow, and usually anything more then that and it's more of a ground clearance issue then tires.

 

AWD allows me to not waste $1k a year on snow tires, that would be destroyed in one season due to temperature swings

[xt2005bonbon]

yeah well, all season tires (at least the ones I own) still suck for me in the snow (even below 1ft). When I lived in Norway, they laughed at me when they saw my 'all season' tires. They actually don't even use these there. It's either summer or winter tires. But of course, temps don't really go in the 50F during winters. Probably varies between 0F to 32F depending on where you live of course.

 

 

 

Just carry your set of snow tires in your trunk. At the bottom of the hill, swap tires and off you go!

 

 

Here in MD, when we get these rare big snow storms, I actually swap my tires just for that day so I can go have some fun . Even had a chance during one of those to tow an Econoline van which was stuck in the snow.

[SBT]

Personally I would never take a CUV/SUV out into the woods, and certainly not up those kinds of mountain grades with leaves on top of wet clay, with just AS tires on it. I'm sure a typical, uneducated, suburban family wouldn't even give that a second's thought.

 

That the family got as far up that mountain pull as they did, on AS tires, is pretty amazing in inself.

Same would apply even more to the rough trail that TFLC took the Outback up.

 

But the CVT is one of the reasons I'm still looking at a 13-14 3.6R Outback with 5EAT.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SBT

[ehsnils]

The major point behind winter tires is to be able to stop and corner safely.

[xt2005bonbon]

You could also argue that these kind of tires (or light offroad tires for when the TFL folks do their offroad test) would yield less stress to the AWD system since it does not have to work as hard to find traction.

[covertrussian]

Personally I would never take a CUV/SUV out into the woods, and certainly not up those kinds of mountain grades with leaves on top of wet clay, with just AS tires on it. I'm sure a typical, uneducated, suburban family wouldn't even give that a second's thought.

 

That's the whole point of getting a high ground clearance, AWD rugged SUBARU, instead of a Highlander or CX9 (though CX9 might actually be more capable).

 

The other concern is actually with towing up hills, if CVT starts having issues with taking the car up 20% grade, how is it going to handle 5k lbs even on interstates (Highway 64 has some serious mountains on east coast)

 

 

That the family got as far up that mountain pull as they did, on AS tires, is pretty amazing in inself.

Same would apply even more to the rough trail that TFLC took the Outback up.

 

But the CVT is one of the reasons I'm still looking at a 13-14 3.6R Outback with 5EAT.

 

I'm not surprised, when AWD is working fine (ie not being forcefully detuned), AWD on Subaru's works great even with all season tires. I wish I lived closer to the TFLC guys, I would let them test my 6MT Outback on their rig and offroad trail

[Brady]

The angle shown on the dash seemed to average 17°, up to 20°. A 17° slope is actually a 30% grade (and 20° is 36%)

 

Max grade for interstates is 6%. That's a far cry from 30%, or even 20%.

[SBT]

The other bit about towing on highway, grade or otherwise, is that all four wheels are on essentially flat tractive surface. Not so when you get out in the willy-wags.

 

I'm sure the CVT will be fine with a load on behind, over most of the hilly and mountain pass highways in this country. The one exception would be starting from a dead-stop with 5,000 lbs out behind on a 6-10% grade - think accident further up the mountain and it's all stop and go.

 

That would challenge most EATs, and other manufacturer's CVT offerings would probably give up on the first try (think NISSAN), but I think Subaru's Lineratronic HD-CVT might actually manage it well enough for the short term.

[covertrussian]

The angle shown on the dash seemed to average 17°, up to 20°. A 17° slope is actually a 30% grade (and 20° is 36%)

 

Max grade for interstates is 6%. That's a far cry from 30%, or even 20%.

 

This is really useful, thank you for this tidbit! Looks like 64 in West Virginia hits up to 7%, but still that's way less then the 30%.

 

I'm gonna try to measure my driveway grade at it's most inclined spot. For kicks and giggles, here is my driveway after I climbed it with my 6MT Outback with about 1/2" ice/sleet and some snow on top. From dead stop, right after pavement, I got up to the blue tube on the left without traction control but couldn't go any further. I then rolled back down, started again with TC, and turned it off halfway up, you can see the car fishtailing but it eventually made it up.

 

[Brady]

This is really useful, thank you for this tidbit! Looks like 64 in West Virginia hits up to 7%, but still that's way less then the 30%.

 

7% is actually also the max grade, but only for downhill sections! Odd quirk of the federal standards. I-70 has a few sections of 6% near the Continental Divide and the highest point of the Unites States Interstate System. I was long confused by the one section that I did see listed at 7% (posted) and originally assumed it was a special exemption due to the limited options of terrain through the mountains. I don't remember where or how I learned of the 7% downhill quirk, but you'll find then highway doesn't parallel itself on both sides in those areas.

[covertrussian]

Aha! That explains that too, I remember seeing the 7% signs myself, but also found it while googling around for 64 max grades. That makes sense though, also explains why they would divide the highway in those sections too.

 

Those 7% are nice, I would engine brake all the way down in 5/6th gear, getting 9999 MPG. One time I was on empty, on my old 1999 Sentra SE with 13gallon tank, and no gas stations in sight. Those long downhills is the only thing that got me to a gas station without running out of gas, I think I got close to 40mpg that one time haha.

Edited December 5, 2018 by covertrussian

[Gabo]

Test drove it a couple of weekends ago and loved it, not the payment though. ($600/month w/ $8000 down) and I have excellent credit, 800+.

[Brady]

Excellent credit doesn't reduce the price of the vehicle. Either way, the payments have to add up to the total cost plus the interest.

[Gabo]

Excellent credit doesn't reduce the price of the vehicle. Either way, the payments have to add up to the total cost plus the interest.

 

Excellent credit implies a low interest rate which does happen to have a direct correlation with the monthly payment.

 

In any case for those in the rust belt, are Subaru prices better? Here in San Diego the fully loaded Ascent with the Java interior is $46,700.00

[Brady]

And? Even at 0%, assuming you roll Tax, Title & License into your financing, the Touring has an MSRP of $44,695. I'll assume (conservatively) 6% to cover those additional costs, which brings you to just north of $47,000. Subtract your $8k, and you're left with $39K, divided by 60 months and you have a $650 monthly at 0% apr.

 

Math is math. Good credit doesn't magically make it go away. You'll pay MORE for bad credit, but good credit doesn't cost *less*.

[SBT]

Don't forget the $950+ shipping. That's not factored into MSRP. It's on top of it.