Inlet, TGV, and Topfeed questions

[xtea]

Thinking ahead for next year when I go dom 1.5. Ideally I'd like to pick up as many used parts as possible. I know fitment can become a big issue with some of these parts.

 

Is there a 3" inlet that fits better than another?

 

Are all TGV deletes created equal? Is the DIY method any better or worse then another? Do the TGV deletes affect fitment? Do I really need tgv deletes? I've heard it's just 5hp difference.

 

I've been recommended ID's for topfeed conversion. Can I get the rails used? I've been told used injectors are a bad idea. Can I mix rails and injectors?

 

Thanks!

[Max Capacity]

I think the 3" intake will fit if you get the phanlic spacers for the TGV's to head. But IMO unless your looking for big HP why bother ?

 

What are your HP goals ?

 

IMO you don't need TGV deletes.

 

If you buy used injectors you should send them out and have them tested and cleaned.

[fahr_side]

I like the Perrin inlet for fitment and quality. It doesn't collapse at Dom flow rates but I have seen others do that.

 

I prefer to weld up the holes, then hog out the dividing wall, then clean up. Having the TGV motor and sensor assemblies out of the way certainly frees up some space for bigger inlet tubes and snails. The Dom is a pretty snug fit in there so the more room you can make for yourself the better. I had to grind the bell housing a little on my 6MT to install the turbo in the right location. This would be harder with a 3" inlet vs. the regular 2.4" one I used. I did search around before I ordered the turbo to see if there was any data to support the 3" one spooling any earlier or making better power but found nothing.

 

If you're going to topfeeds (which I'd highly encourage) then why not pick up some GH8 rails and TGV housings? Those should just plug and play with your intake manifold and might be easier to find than the later topfeed LGT items.

 

The Bosch EV14 injectors that ID and DW use now are great, really easy to tune, much nicer than the modified Denso ones. I'm using the DW750s with meth. For gas alone I'd have gotten the ID850s.

 

I didn't run with the TGVs in place on the Dom. I deleted when I installed the turbo (along with the STi manifold and TMIC). I have seen the delete make more than 5whp extra on 18G-sized turbos so I'd expect not deleting the TGVs would hold the Dom back more than that.

[xtea]

Two kings! Sweet.

 

HP goal 400hp. But really I want the fattest torque band above 325 that doesn't fall off till 5.5k. I have 93 and e85 locally. I've got forgies and arp studs already.

 

3" inlet is solely for spool. I'll do more research on that but I think my tuner locally mentioned it.

 

Used gh8 rails would be great! ID uses bosch injectors then. Maybe pricing out separately will be better then the kits that ID sells.

 

I was under the impression that tgv's help with start up and that idle is funky with out them. But maybe with top feeds the idles ok? I assume the tgv delete is just to make more room then? I'll give up 10 hp for better idle and start up.

 

And then yeah I've read with bigger stock location turbos AND with an aftermarket inlet things just don't fit well together.

[fahr_side]

You get a cleaner burn at low load with the TGVs intact but once you're tuned idle is very smooth on these EV14 injectors. At least as smooth as stock.

[MTBwrench]

 

Used gh8 rails would be great! ID uses bosch injectors then. Maybe pricing out separately will be better then the kits that ID sells.

 

I was under the impression that tgv's help with start up and that idle is funky with out them. But maybe with top feeds the idles ok? I assume the tgv delete is just to make more room then? I'll give up 10 hp for better idle and start up.

 

And then yeah I've read with bigger stock location turbos AND with an aftermarket inlet things just don't fit well together.

 

I have the ID top feed conversion kit with deletes.

 

For rails, I would spring for something a little nicer(as far as features go). The lack of pulse dampers in my ID rails really bit me in the ass, as I had a crazy fuel harmonic to sort through. It took weeks of troubleshooting to resolve. I would look at IAG or radium rails, and get the rail mounted dampers for them. For injectors, I could be off (fahr_side would have a better idea!) but you'll probably want to get ID1300's or something of the like if you plan on ethanol. It always nice to have a little wiggle room.

 

The whole "idles worse without TGV's" is kind of hogwash... I noticed zero difference in idle quality between my TGV's, and subsequent deleted units. Idle quality is more so in the tune, and a well sorted ignition and fueling setup, than anything else. Mine idles very smooth, save for the NVH from the group N mounts, rallitek race trans bushing, and aftermarket pitch stop.

[MTBwrench]

You get a cleaner burn at low load with the TGVs intact but once you're tuned idle is very smooth on these EV14 injectors. At least as smooth as stock.

 

^this is true. The narrow passage created by the small orifice in the TGV's crates a high velocity jet of air which feeds directly in front of the injector spray, atomizing it more efficiently.

[StkmltS]

Concerning idling without TGVs; dont worry about it, at all. I diy-gutted mine and I couldn't tell a difference with or wothout them. Obviously you'll be getting tuned for the monster turbo, so any minor affect it has on idle will be tuned out.

 

Sent from inner space.

[fahr_side]

I actually think idle quality and part-throttle fueling is better on the EV14 injectors + TGV delete than the stock intact setup. Very high quality injectors. And I think you'll have a hard time installing the Dom with the TGVs in place.

You will pay for the larger turbo in terms of spool and response no matter you keep the TGVs or lose them. Having paid that price I'd be sure to get that last 10whp from it, especially when that mod itself seems to have zero downside.

[xtea]

What do you guys think of the efr 7163? I know it needs different pipes.

[fahr_side]

It's a great turbo if you're looking for high 400s. It has a turbine larger than the full-size GT30R and the smallest turbine housing available is .85 a/r. The only kit out there now to install in stock location is the Full Race setup.

I think it's a great alternative to a GT35R if a GT30R isn't enough, and you're into going rotated.

[xtea]

It's a great turbo if you're looking for high 400s. It has a turbine larger than the full-size GT30R and the smallest turbine housing available is .85 a/r. The only kit out there now to install in stock location is the Full Race setup.

I think it's a great alternative to a GT35R if a GT30R isn't enough, and you're into going rotated.

 

I don't want high 400's. The powerband looks fatter then the dom 1.5 and starts a littler earlier it seems. The only reason I thought about it is because the powerband is nicer and except for up and dp everything else is stock.

 

No one really talks about the GT's over here. I think the 7163 still spools earlier.

[fahr_side]

Not many people have used this turbo on an EJ25x. We did one on a 5th gen LGT that was amazing, buuut... remember the turbo position makes a world of difference. The exhaust gas has cooled so much by the time it's passed through that meter or so of tubing that it plays very differently. It's one thing to push a 63mm turbine in a .85 housing when it's 20cm away from the exhaust ports and quite another when it's a meter away. Also note that we had DAVCS to help with spool, and the only results I've seen for the Full Race 7163 kit were on '08~ STi models with same.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the EFR turbos for quality and response. With that much flow potential you can forget about using a TMIC with the 7163, way too much air for that. I found the 7163 didn't really come alive until above about 19psi so that rules out just holding the boost down a bit for around 400whp. At around 18psi it just feels a bit flat. Keep the turbo in it's happy zone and you're in the high 400s already.

 

If you want an EFR in the stock location I'd look at the 6758 in the .64 a/r housing for the broadest possible torque curve. Jeff Perrin tested this and loved it. Spools like a VF-48 and at 25psi does right around 400whp. Note the Full Race kit isn't perfect but it's still quite expensive. If you insist on using the 7163 you would really want to do a rotated setup and you definitely need a FMIC. Even then I would not expect it out-spool the Dom 1.5XTR with it's little 56.5mm turbine.

 

Here's a thing people forget. We all want to have the widest possible torque curve possible. Not a mountain of torque but a whole mountain range of it. The thing is, the bigger you go with turbos the more difference there is in spool between gears. It takes more time to accelerate the bigger wheels up to speed and in the lower gears a lot of revs go by before the turbo spins up. So for example you may see full spool in 4th gear at 3k2rpm but in 2nd gear it can be in the high 4k range. Even on a mid-size turbo like the 1.5XTR this difference is quite obvious. Peak torque in the lower gears arrives much later in the rev range and the peak value much lower than in the higher gears. Yes you can run more boost in the lower gears to compensate for that a little but what you find is that you get a spiky, narrow torque curve in the lower gears and a much broader one in high gears. The bigger the wheels and housings are the more obvious this is, and also the further the turbo is from the heads.

 

Honestly, I think you'd be a lot happier with the Dom. And if you're not happy with it it's easy to sell on. What are you going to do with a Full Race 7163 kit if you don't like it?

[Tuning Alliance]

EFR FTW!

 

-Brian

[fahr_side]

Also look at the Spoolinator kit from Killer B. Garrett have a new .86 a/r Ni-resist v-band housing http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-315&Category_Code=NGH that works with the smaller 56.5mm 90 trim 30R turbine (now named GTX29) the 1.5XTR uses. That would spool faster than the full-size 60mm GT30 turbine Killer B have been using in testing but be plenty to drive the GTX3067R compressor. The updated aero on the 67mm wheel is much more impressive than the GTX 71 and 76mm items. Basically build your own Dom clone with a v-band housing you could use on the Spoolinator adapter, made from a GTX2967R with a 90 trim turbine. Use the T04E compressor housing intact with a 3" inlet or have it turned down as Killer B did to 2.4"

I'm sure this would do about the same power as the Dom and spool / respond faster.

[xtea]

Not many people have used this turbo on an EJ25x. We did one on a 5th gen LGT that was amazing, buuut... remember the turbo position makes a world of difference. The exhaust gas has cooled so much by the time it's passed through that meter or so of tubing that it plays very differently. It's one thing to push a 63mm turbine in a .85 housing when it's 20cm away from the exhaust ports and quite another when it's a meter away. Also note that we had DAVCS to help with spool, and the only results I've seen for the Full Race 7163 kit were on '08~ STi models with same.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the EFR turbos for quality and response. With that much flow potential you can forget about using a TMIC with the 7163, way too much air for that. I found the 7163 didn't really come alive until above about 19psi so that rules out just holding the boost down a bit for around 400whp. At around 18psi it just feels a bit flat. Keep the turbo in it's happy zone and you're in the high 400s already.

 

If you want an EFR in the stock location I'd look at the 6758 in the .64 a/r housing for the broadest possible torque curve. Jeff Perrin tested this and loved it. Spools like a VF-48 and at 25psi does right around 400whp. Note the Full Race kit isn't perfect but it's still quite expensive. If you insist on using the 7163 you would really want to do a rotated setup and you definitely need a FMIC. Even then I would not expect it out-spool the Dom 1.5XTR with it's little 56.5mm turbine.

 

Here's a thing people forget. We all want to have the widest possible torque curve possible. Not a mountain of torque but a whole mountain range of it. The thing is, the bigger you go with turbos the more difference there is in spool between gears. It takes more time to accelerate the bigger wheels up to speed and in the lower gears a lot of revs go by before the turbo spins up. So for example you may see full spool in 4th gear at 3k2rpm but in 2nd gear it can be in the high 4k range. Even on a mid-size turbo like the 1.5XTR this difference is quite obvious. Peak torque in the lower gears arrives much later in the rev range and the peak value much lower than in the higher gears. Yes you can run more boost in the lower gears to compensate for that a little but what you find is that you get a spiky, narrow torque curve in the lower gears and a much broader one in high gears. The bigger the wheels and housings are the more obvious this is, and also the further the turbo is from the heads.

 

Honestly, I think you'd be a lot happier with the Dom. And if you're not happy with it it's easy to sell on. What are you going to do with a Full Race 7163 kit if you don't like it?

 

So everything I read is telling me the 6758 and the 7163 have amazing transient response and builds boost instantly on the street. I can see building boost under high load like you would on a dyno or doing wot logs being extremely slow. I am quicker study but I am also a complete idiot. I can imagine how the built in bpv would keep boost up between shifts and flooring it from cruising speed would also create boost more quickly then on the dyno.

 

I already have a beautiful full race header on my car. I keep wanting to have the rest of the piping be the same as well and I think EFR turbos are more uncommon which having something different is always neat. And after multiple upgrade cycles I really just think you should buy more turbo then you think you want as I've already done two swaps.

 

The dual avcs affecting the spool up though is a factor. I've seen a few graphs that push the 7163 hitting peak a bit afer 4k.

 

Also with your recent event with the dom is making me think again about it. I really want to be done power mods and so lets just do it once and have more power then I want.

 

The spoolinator kits are interesting. I'm kind of jaded against killer b products though after getting into a stupid conversation with one of their pr/marketing guys on nasioc.

[fahr_side]

No argument from me on those points. I think the built-in BPV has a lot to do with the speed of boost recovery after shifts and wonder why it's not more commonly adopted.

Dual AVCS does indeed make a big difference in spool on larger turbos.

 

Honestly, if I'd known the Dom would shit the bed so quickly I'd have done either a Spoolinator setup or EFR kit in the first place.

 

PR / marketing guys who don't know one end of a wrench from the other are ******* annoying and harm a brand more than they help IMO. They might pull in more noobs but they definitely drive away more knowledgeable customers.