Ultimate Race Wagon build

[Jaybird2013]

Sub'd, Looking forward to seeing how this project unfolds, as well as gaining some knowledge along the way.

[boxkita]

@ Sgt.Gator - i have a "source" for an sti. Was thinking 08 jdm sti powertrain and suspension. Then contact wrc spares and upgrade the hubs to rally spec.

 

I've already got a "we might be interested" from msi to make the rear subframe to match sti to lgt. Still need to measure a stock subframe from each to see how far off it is. Short of buying one of each or finding a shop that has them, a bit stumped on this one.

Swapping subframe would also solve the wheel clearance issue on the inside.

 

@NSFW - the oil starvation issue is what killed my oem motor which led to the killerb pan, windage tray and oil pickup on the current motor. over filling before each session and running heavier weight oil, imo, is what kept it alive. The Blackstone analysis (nearly every change ) showed heavier than normal usage for average user but within range for my usage .

I think, based on rapidity of color change, the oil filter was overwhelmed almost immediately by track usage. The first session would show color change. end of day it was dark and gritty.

 

With regards engine management, I have a line on a Motec system at a discounted price. Its still crazy money tho. For the time being, I'd like to stay with open source tuning because of the success of my current system. unfortunately I didn't program my current configuration nor save it off. My fallout with the tuner leaves me hanging. Tuning a racecar is different than tuning a "i hit boost at least once a day" street car. Learning from someone who has done it already is ideal.

 

However part of the reason I bot 7 blocks was to have a learning experience granted some of that was because I thought Sgt.Gator had gone thru motors like water. Of course, once you get into the mode of buying cheap blocks, there's always another one. I've got enough to learn something about tear-down & re-assembly.

[legacybt]

@ Sgt.Gator - i have a "source" foran sti. Was think 08 jdm sti powertrain and suspension. Then contact wrc spares and upgrade the hubs to rally spec.

 

I've already got a "we might be interested " from msi to make the rear subframe to match sti to lgt. Still need to measure a stock subframe from each to see how far off it is. Short of buying one of each or finding a shop that has them, a bit stumped on thus one.

Swapping subframe would also solve the wheel clearance issue on the inside.

 

@NSFW - the oil starvation issue is what killed my oem motor which led to the killerb pan windage tray and oil pickup on the current motor. over filling before each session and running heavier weight oil, imo, is what kept it alive. The Blackstone analysis (nearly every change ) showed heavier than normal usage for average user but within range for my usage .

I think, based on rapidity of color change, the oil filter was overwhelmed almost immediately by track usage. The first session would show color change. end of day it was dark and gritty.

 

With regards engine management, I have a line on a Motec system at a discounted price. Its still crazy money tho. For the time being, I'd like to stay with open source tuning because of the success of my current system. unfortunately I didn't program my current configuration nor save it off. My fallout with the tuner leaves me hanging. Tuning a racecar is different than tuning a "i hit boost at least once a day" street car. Learning from someone who has done it already is ideal. however part of the reason I bot 7 blocks was to have a learning experience granted some of that was because I forgot how many Sgt.Gator actually blew in his car (sorry ).

 

More later when typing with actual keyboard.

 

 

I have a rear subframe sitting in the garage, what measurements do you want from it?

[boxkita]

I have a rear subframe sitting in the garage, what measurements do you want from it?

How good are you at drawing?

 

Need accurate measure of holes on section that attaches to wagon and same for those that attach to the suspension bits?

 

Basically a 3d drawing of the whole thing. I can send that to msi and see they can modify a sti subframe s mount points to fit the lgt mount points.

 

Or 3d scan it?

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm a little confused. Is this thread about building your wagon that you tracked before, or the Silver Eagle? If it's your original LGT Wagon why would you want two LGT Wagon racecars?

[NSFW]

Because racecars!

[boxkita]

I'm a little confused. Is this thread about building your wagon that you tracked before, or the Silver Eagle? If it's your original LGT Wagon why would you want two LGT Wagon racecars?

" The racecar formally known as Silver Eagle " ? This thread is about taking what I learned about my street car plus random thoughts then applying to unnamed racecar.

 

As for 2 racing wagons, that's only a pipedream

[legacybt]

How good are you at drawing?

 

Need accurate measure of holes on section that attaches to wagon and same for those that attach to the suspension bits?

 

Basically a 3d drawing of the whole thing. I can send that to msi and see they can modify a sti subframe s mount points to fit the lgt mount points.

 

Or 3d scan it?

 

Haha I can model it just fine, but I don't have any ways to accurately measure it - a tape measure is all I have. No access to a 3d scanner anymore

[magnusonsubie]

What you need to do is go crazy and order a bunch of machinist precision measuring tools so you can help Boxkita get an accurate 3d model of the subframe. It's only logical.

[legacybt]

What you need to do is go crazy and order a bunch of machinist precision measuring tools so you can help Boxkita get an accurate 3d model of the subframe. It's only logical.

 

completely totally logical. I'll buy all of it tomorrow

[Sgt.Gator]

" The racecar formally known as Silver Eagle " ?

 

You're right, you should rename the Silver Eagle the Garage Fixture II.

[boxkita]

You're right, you should rename the Silver Eagle the Garage Fixture II.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here you go, How to Build the Ulitmate Wagon in 3 minutes. Note the Labor Hours ticker:

Vermont SportsCar's Rally Car Build Time Lapse

 

What takes them 800 hours in their shop would only take you about 3,600 hours in your garage.

[boxkita]

What you need to do is go crazy and order a bunch of machinist precision measuring tools so you can help Boxkita get an accurate 3d model of the subframe. It's only logical.

 

What I need is a list of tools that work well, so I don't keep buying junk. I don't mind paying for good tools, I just hate paying good tool money for bad tools.

 

Does school have a list of "when you have paid off your school loans, these are your 'forever' tools" ?

[boxkita]

Here you go, How to Build the Ulitmate Wagon in 3 minutes. Note the Labor Hours ticker:

Vermont SportsCar's Rally Car Build Time Lapse

 

What takes them 800 hours in their shop would only take you about 3,600 hours in your garage.

 

Thank goodness I started with an already complete car. Just needs an engine.

 

A "race" quality motor is 20-30k, depending on parts (rallispec lists cosworth long block for 12k). I spent 12 on my last one plus 2k in tuning. I bought 7 short & long blocks for ~$800. Miscellaneous parts are ~$4k depending on what's usable on the racecar.

 

So, allowing for worst case scenarios (new engine builder, new race engine tuner, new race car builder), I can attempt 6 motors for 30k. Compared to the $100k I put into the street wagon over 2 years (car, rebuild, suspension, track time, private instruction, etc) only to give up and buy a pedigreed Miata, this seems like a real bargain. I've already established I can drive (every race in the Miata I was on the podium), so now I get to learn whether I can build.

 

Since my job for the last decade has been turning complex software projects into sweet running processes, building a motor that can survive a 30 minute race doesn't seem all that hard. I got a bunch of books. A bunch of people who have some experience with subaru motors. A bunch of youtube videos on how to do it. I even have a 3 minute video on how to do it right. I'm golden.

[magnusonsubie]

What I need is a list of tools that work well, so I don't keep buying junk. I don't mind paying for good tools, I just hate paying good tool money for bad tools.

 

Does school have a list of "when you have paid off your school loans, these are your 'forever' tools" ?

Hmmmmm not that I've seen. People leaving here pretty much just buy craftsman, snap on, and Mac tools. Out on the ships they have their own tools already so you don't need to take your own.

[boxkita]

Hmmmmm not that I've seen. People leaving here pretty much just buy craftsman, snap on, and Mac tools. Out on the ships they have their own tools already so you don't need to take your own.

I've been on the snap-on & mac tools trucks. Although I have a few "must have" tools from them, the stuff I'm looking for is precision measuring tools. I have a full box of craftsman & HF.

[magnusonsubie]

Starrett for precision measurement.

[boxkita]

Starrett for precision measurement.

I've a few of their things. Pricey.

[legacybt]

Mitutoyo does good stuff as well

[Saltysubie]

Hey Boxkita, I think this brings up a good point regarding engine building. Starrett, Mitutoyo, and Brown & Sharpe are all respectable manufacturers of accurate and precise measurement instrumentation, but you still need to look at the specs for the instrument you're looking at. As a rule of thumb, it should have a measuring accuracy at least one order of magnitude better than the tolerance of what you are trying to measure. So, if you are measuring to plus/minus 0.001mm, then your instrument should have an accuracy of near 0.0001mm. If you are going to build good, reliable engines for racing (and by "build" I really mean assemble), I personally think that you have to have access to really good measuring instrumentation to check the work of your machine shop, etc. Definitely possible to build an engine that will run and can daily for a while without those tools (I've built a few engines with just plastigage and dial calipers) but they never seem to last as long as stock, and you are putting much faith into your shop that does the machining and balancing for you. Plus, the clearances are really important on an engine that is seeing severe service for racing, even though you may be loosening things up (like bearings, PTW clearances when going forged).

Some things, like micrometers, aren't too expensive to get high accuracy. But others, like bore gauges, to measure cylinders, are a pretty pricey investment for a set that has the necessary accuracy. And don't confuse the smallest increment of measurement for its accuracy. A lot of times the smallest increment is smaller than the instrument's rated accuracy. Also, instruments with "high" accuracy should be checked every once in a while against a "standard" to ensure that they are still in specs. Temperature differences between the part and the instrument can even have a small influence. And there is a little skill involved to use these instruments correctly.

I read through your drama thread regarding your heads (great read btw), so I know you are well aware of the importance of tolerances and the ability of machine shops to perform. Based on what you spend on cars and the interest you have in engine building, I would think that this would be on your investment priority list. Otherwise, you'll never be able to verify the machine work of others.

Anyways, hope to read about the wagon on the podium in the near future.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[magnusonsubie]

Saltysubie, we just had our machine shop teacher leave because he got offered better pay at another school. You want to come teach machine shop because everything you just listed is the first couple classes where we learn precision measurement. Sooooo many people don't pay attention and then when they measure something hot still on the lathe and later when it cools and doesn't fit inside the other thing you drilled out or its too loose they are so confused.

 

I think that post is one of the most useful things I've seen on this forum and often one of the most overlooked things when most people here do their rebuilds.

[boxkita]

Hey Boxkita, I think this brings up a good point regarding engine building. Starrett, Mitutoyo, and Brown & Sharpe are all respectable manufacturers of accurate and precise measurement instrumentation, but you still need to look at the specs for the instrument you're looking at. As a rule of thumb, it should have a measuring accuracy at least one order of magnitude better than the tolerance of what you are trying to measure. So, if you are measuring to plus/minus 0.001mm, then your instrument should have an accuracy of near 0.0001mm. If you are going to build good, reliable engines for racing (and by "build" I really mean assemble), I personally think that you have to have access to really good measuring instrumentation to check the work of your machine shop, etc. Definitely possible to build an engine that will run and can daily for a while without those tools (I've built a few engines with just plastigage and dial calipers) but they never seem to last as long as stock, and you are putting much faith into your shop that does the machining and balancing for you. Plus, the clearances are really important on an engine that is seeing severe service for racing, even though you may be loosening things up (like bearings, PTW clearances when going forged).

Some things, like micrometers, aren't too expensive to get high accuracy. But others, like bore gauges, to measure cylinders, are a pretty pricey investment for a set that has the necessary accuracy. And don't confuse the smallest increment of measurement for its accuracy. A lot of times the smallest increment is smaller than the instrument's rated accuracy. Also, instruments with "high" accuracy should be checked every once in a while against a "standard" to ensure that they are still in specs. Temperature differences between the part and the instrument can even have a small influence. And there is a little skill involved to use these instruments correctly.

I read through your drama thread regarding your heads (great read btw), so I know you are well aware of the importance of tolerances and the ability of machine shops to perform. Based on what you spend on cars and the interest you have in engine building, I would think that this would be on your investment priority list. Otherwise, you'll never be able to verify the machine work of others.

Anyways, hope to read about the wagon on the podium in the near future.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

you have a pm. We need to talk. :-)

[FJuan]

Have you started yet?

[boxkita]

time passes with little work. I might be overwhelmed by how much work I need to do and how many skills I lack.

 

The garage finally has walls and has stopped flooding. The renters have moved in, but we're still short on an income stream to re-fi the note. I'm looking at part-time jobs to pay for a built motor and get the re-fi done.

 

Talked to a local racer who has tools I don't (welder, etc) and skills (on his 3rd racecar) about renting part of the garage in return for skills/tools sharing. There might be paying projects to finance wagon work, too.

 

Sent an email to Mary Fields's shop about building a race motor to get on track faster. Preferably for a turn-key motor I can drop in and race.

 

Bought a front-damaged 05 sedan to get motor parts from as well as the rear suspension parts. Still laboring under the theory that an 08 sti suspension & drive train swap is possible. There is a local shop (TSS Fab) that builds rear sub frames & front lca for STi. With measurements and parts in hand, maybe they can build a conversion subframe. Maybe they can't. Never hurts to ask.

 

Have been buying tools from HF cause top-quality costs more than I have. Have enough to do sheet metal work. Still looking at a 3-d printer and mini-mill.

 

I missed out on the valve grinder because really old and figured costs to refurbish were too high.

 

Still looking at the alignment machine. It's only 600 and 20 years old. Something tells me I'll be better off taking car to a shop and paying extra to bug the heck out of them while I watch. Getting a set of scales (I know a few people who have sets collecting dust) and doing the corner balance in the garage is a start.

 

Sgt.Gator sent a flyer for deals on a lift. Still want one, just don't know where to put it in the garage, though do know where I don't want it (dead center where the old one was). $1500 for a 2-post is a good price.

 

Still need to get good measuring tools. And learn how to use them. Buying HF tools that give a different reading every time is too frustrating.

 

Trailer should be out of the garage in another week or so. At which time, I'll start parting the 05 sedan. Well, I'll pull parts off and then put them back on again. Then take them off. Disassembling a car is pretty easy. Putting it back together is less so.

 

Once trailer is out, I can move the racecar in. And get the street car unburied from garage and back on the road. Oh the joy!