TMIC vs. FMIC

[rang0]

Hey guys, I have a few questions regarding intercoolers...excuse my naive-ness (word?) in advanced.

 

Preface: Currently, my 05 LGT 5spd Wagon with a VF52 is tuned by tuning alliance with target boost set at 17.5 psi (278 awhp/284 awtq). I plan to be re-tuned again and have target boost be closer to 21 or 22 psi. That's about the extent of my goals power-wise (300-320 awhp or so).

 

I'm trying to decide on getting a better/larger TMIC or go to a FMIC. The GS TMIC appeals to me the most, but do I need it? Would an AVO/Perrin/Torque Solutions suffice (are there fitment issues with those? in regards to front strut bar and/or hoses). Most TMIC, other than GS, are obviously smaller than most FMIC, so I assume that can affect the capacity of those particular TMICs. Then GS comes along with their big pimpin' TMIC that makes me question why get a FMIC when I can fit a similarly sized IC under the hood/direct fitment.

 

Now, for getting a FMIC; at what point or goals dictate the necessity of a FMIC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most FMIC are the same size (AVO, ETS, FMS, PERRIN, RACERX) and the IC piping/routing/fitment is what changes? Quality of core and end tank welds? I definitely would want to keep fog lights if I were to get a FMIC.

 

What are the pros and cons of TMIC vs. FMIC? Quality? Cost? Size? Street Cred (w/ FMIC)? Install time?

 

Cost seems to be why most just replace the TMIC with a better/larger one. I've heard with a FMIC the turbo takes longer to spool? Is that an actual/noticeable issue? If I am missing any other features or specifications that I should be aware of and pay attention to please let me know.

[Zack Spec B]

You may also want to start saving money for a BPV. OEM are rated for 18-20 PSI and I've read that they start leaking once you roll over 20.

[AutoXCivic]

I've only had my legacy for a week or so, but the garage I go to has done numerous back to back dyno tests that show a front mount will outperform a top mount ... and (potentially) be cheaper.

 

They've tested some of the more expensive TMIC setups (can't remember the name, but the setup cost $1k or so) vs a shop FMIC set up (cost for this set up came to $600ish), and the FMIC outperformed it everywhere.

 

I don't have the numbers on me, but from the talk we had there's no reason not to convert to a front mount if you are thinking of upgrading the intercooler.

[rang0]

You may also want to start saving money for a BPV. OEM are rated for 18-20 PSI and I've read that they start leaking once you roll over 20.

 

I picked up a GFB Hybrid BOV, running it 100% recirc, not too long ago. I knew that was something I was going to have to change in the near future.

[rang0]

I've only had my legacy for a week or so, but the garage I go to has done numerous back to back dyno tests that show a front mount will outperform a top mount ... and (potentially) be cheaper.

 

They've tested some of the more expensive TMIC setups (can't remember the name, but the setup cost $1k or so) vs a shop FMIC set up (cost for this set up came to $600ish), and the FMIC outperformed it everywhere.

 

I don't have the numbers on me, but from the talk we had there's no reason not to convert to a front mount if you are thinking of upgrading the intercooler.

 

Gotcha. When you say outperform you mean like by cooling temps being lower and holding more boost? I mean it seems pretty obvious to get a cheaper FMIC vice a TMIC in most cases. I want to hear people's experiences with other TMICs and how they perform against FMICs. I'm looking for the best bang for the buck. What are the negatives of a cheap FMIC/what makes them cheap??

[SCASEYS]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=TMIC+VS+FMIC+LEGACYGT.COM#

[AutoXCivic]

Gotcha. When you say outperform you mean like by cooling temps being lower and holding more boost? I mean it seems pretty obvious to get a cheaper FMIC vice a TMIC in most cases. I want to hear people's experiences with other TMICs and how they perform against FMICs. I'm looking for the best bang for the buck. What are the negatives of a cheap FMIC/what makes them cheap??

 

As to what makes them cheap, I can't speak to that. I wouldn't say that they cheaped out on the set up though, just that the parts were cheaper than the expensive top of the line top mount set up. I guess run of the mill might be a better term than cheap.

 

They saw better spool times, increased HP/TQ numbers throughout the curve (which I assume would be linked to better cooling of the air charge).

 

It didn't sound like they found any negatives in running a front mount. If you are worried about spool times/pipe volume you could always flip the intake manifold to face the front, which would reduce the length of piping needed.

 

I will state that I don't have any personal experience with the FMIC set up, this is all based on discussions I've had with the guys at the shop.

[rang0]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=TMIC+VS+FMIC+LEGACYGT.COM#

 

right... I searched for FMIC in this forum section and couldn't find much. I guess I should have looked elsewhere. Thanks though that was some good info on there. I'm still confused on how the FMIC performs as far as lagging spool a bit (just between gear shifts?), but then people also just say that can be accounted for in the tune. Would it be right to say a TMIC is better for tracking where FMIC is good for daily driving? I know that going to a bigger TMIC or FMIC either way will outperform stock. I'm just weighing the differences.

 

side note to Scaseys: I just moved to Dover!

[whitrzac]

Any FMIC will require 'messing with it' to get it to fit. Most directions say "assemble loosely, then tighten":lol:

 

Most don't use the oem crash bar.

 

Most require the front bumper to be cut.

 

More 'stuf' going on in the engine bay.

 

 

I have an FMS fmic. It works great, but I have been thinking of a GS topmount.

 

 

Do not buy the perrin/torque solutions IC. I've had one, it's a PIA to install and remove. The AVO one is different.

[Max Capacity]

Talk to Mike, I'm sure for your HP goals he'll say a tmic. The fmic is more work to install and has more piping that can get in the way of doing other things.

 

Mike has tuned both my cars both have GS tmic. For a DD its the way to go.

[oODanKNesSOo]

At what point should an aftermarket IC be even thought of?

[quick4dr]

Talk to Mike, I'm sure for your HP goals he'll say a tmic. The fmic is more work to install and has more piping that can get in the way of doing other things.

 

Mike has tuned both my cars both have GS tmic. For a DD its the way to go.

 

yup TMIC is easy for DD

 

I DD my racersX FMIC and love it, however it makes me wonder

 

if I was TMIC... (current 19psi at 3100rpm) could I bring that down to 19psi at 2800?

[oODanKNesSOo]

Talk to Mike, I'm sure for your HP goals he'll say a tmic. The fmic is more work to install and has more piping that can get in the way of doing other things.

 

Mike has tuned both my cars both have GS tmic. For a DD its the way to go.

The GS set you back nearly 1K? That seems steep for a tmic sob!

[Phillip J. Fry]

At what point should an aftermarket IC be even thought of?

 

any time. its bigger. allows more flow. wont come apart unlike stock. stock bpv bolts directly to an AVO tmic with no modification.

 

the engine cover may need some trimming to keep stock appearance though.

[Phillip J. Fry]

Gotcha. When you say outperform you mean like by cooling temps being lower and holding more boost? I mean it seems pretty obvious to get a cheaper FMIC vice a TMIC in most cases. I want to hear people's experiences with other TMICs and how they perform against FMICs. I'm looking for the best bang for the buck. What are the negatives of a cheap FMIC/what makes them cheap??

 

with a tmic it bolts up to factory pipes and hoses. avo now bundles the throttle hose with their tmic. no leaks anywhere with it.

 

fmic? i dont know. but there is too much drama to put one in imo. extra pipes more connections etc. i prefer to keep it simple. fogs are about useless though if you put in a decent hid kit. so dont worry about losing those if need be.

[shralp]

Based on your power goals I'd stick with TMIC for sure. Now that we have good options for this like the Grimmspeed one I don't see any need to go with the hassle of a FMIC if your goals are >350HP to the wheels. With FMIC you've got a lot more to contend with: losing your front crash beam, potential for slower spool due to increased pipe running length, and the biggest complaint I hear all the time - chasing down boost leaks. Thats the number one thing I hear about from FMIC owners. Unless you live in an exceedingly hot climate all year long, I just don't see any reason to go FMIC. On a final note, (and just .02 cents) "street cred" should never be a factor in making a decision

 

Also, unless you're going to do the work yourself, the labor cost on the FMIC install plus parts will far outweigh the pricey-ness of that Grimmspeed TMIC.

[joeleodee]

Hey guys, I have a few questions regarding intercoolers...excuse my naive-ness (word?) in advanced.

 

Preface: Currently, my 05 LGT 5spd Wagon with a VF52 is tuned by tuning alliance with target boost set at 17.5 psi (278 awhp/284 awtq). I plan to be re-tuned again and have target boost be closer to 21 or 22 psi. That's about the extent of my goals power-wise (300-320 awhp or so).

 

I'm trying to decide on getting a better/larger TMIC or go to a FMIC. The GS TMIC appeals to me the most, but do I need it? Would an AVO/Perrin/Torque Solutions suffice (are there fitment issues with those? in regards to front strut bar and/or hoses). Most TMIC, other than GS, are obviously smaller than most FMIC, so I assume that can affect the capacity of those particular TMICs. Then GS comes along with their big pimpin' TMIC that makes me question why get a FMIC when I can fit a similarly sized IC under the hood/direct fitment.

 

Now, for getting a FMIC; at what point or goals dictate the necessity of a FMIC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most FMIC are the same size (AVO, ETS, FMS, PERRIN, RACERX) and the IC piping/routing/fitment is what changes? Quality of core and end tank welds? I definitely would want to keep fog lights if I were to get a FMIC.

 

What are the pros and cons of TMIC vs. FMIC? Quality? Cost? Size? Street Cred (w/ FMIC)? Install time?

 

Cost seems to be why most just replace the TMIC with a better/larger one. I've heard with a FMIC the turbo takes longer to spool? Is that an actual/noticeable issue? If I am missing any other features or specifications that I should be aware of and pay attention to please let me know.

 

The advice already given has been generally sound. A couple things to add. The size of the fmic kits available for our vehicles is definitely not the same. The budget ones use smaller cores and smaller pipes. They are still good for the 400+whp range, nevertheless. Someone mentioned that with a fmic, you'll be regularly chasing down boost leaks. This is only partially true. I initially sprung for one of the cheaper ones mentioned and it regularly had leaks. More than 2 years ago, I upgraded to the AVO. Better fitment, bigger core and pipes, still kept fogs and bumper beam, and in that time, any boost leak I had was NEVER tracked down to the intercooler and/or piping. Understand, however, that came at nearly twice the cost of the other one.

 

For your purposes, I think you'd be fine with a good tmic. I haven't had any loss in spool with a fmic even on a stock turbo, but they are more involved in their install and maintenance. If you find yourself wanting the most out of a turbo 20g or larger, revisit this debate.

[Max Capacity]

The GS set you back nearly 1K? That seems steep for a tmic sob!

 

That's why both my cars have one.

 

I also know I will not have any problems with either one of them with hoses blowing off or installing them when the car needs maintenance.

[GrimmSpeed]

That's why both my cars have one.

 

I also know I will not have any problems with either one of them with hoses blowing off or installing them when the car needs maintenance.

 

Also, our customer support is pretty darn good too, if you were to ever have a problem

 

Our TMIC also eliminates something that I hate about the connection at the turbo's outlet flange. The fact that so many people end up stripping them, especially if they need to remove their TMIC more than a few times. With ours you install the adapter and leave it.

 

This also makes the TMIC extremely fast to install and uninstall. You can undo two hose connections and two nuts, and it comes right out. Super fast.

 

But you'll also see a substantial difference between our TMIC and most others in the end tank and weld quality. Take a look at how many companies are painted, instead of raw like our own. We're not hiding bad grinding and shaping, filler, or welds. We're showing that off!

 

However, the core, which does the real work here, is so well chosen that it provides an excellent balance of temperature drop and pressure drop. In testing it both had less pressure drop, and rejected more heat than the other extremely popular large TMIC. Unfortunately for most, there is no way to visually look at a core and tell if its a decent design until you've looked at and tested a lot. So that other company, that chinese brand, that ebay whatever, might look like it walks the walk, but doesn't necessarily talk the talk. And you'd be sickened by how many cores leak, and never ever get tested. We test every single intercooler after it gets welded together to ensure that you don't get one that leaks. If we weren't buying high quality cores you can imagine that we'd lose a lot of money if we had a bunch of finished intercoolers with leaks that are getting thrown out. Luckily we're doing things right!

 

But strictly as a choice between TMIC and FMIC, other than what people have already noted about install, sacrificing crash beam, pipe routing potentially interfering with other parts, quality of components and potential for leaks, it's kind of up to you. Sometimes you can spend very little money on something cheap and it works out just fine. Just like I have some Harbor Freight tools in my own garage. Except the difference is they're things like extensions, and not torque wrenches, or taps and dies where their fit and function are vital.

 

BUT, I just saw a lot of people showing us some love in this thread, and wanted to thank you all for the continued support, and to toss a few cents into the discussion as well.

 

Chase

Engineering

[Max Capacity]

Great post Chase.

 

I drive my wagon as my DD and it also goes to VT most winter weekends. The old tmic I had, every now and then it would blow the TB off. I no longer have the worry of when its going to happen next.

 

When its sub zero temps on the weekend drive to VT to ski, the last thing I want is a car that doesn't run well. The GF in the passenger seat wouldn't be to happy with that. The wagon has over 222,000 miles on it a blast to drive. We'll take it back to VT tomorrow after work, again.

[rang0]

Wow. Yes guys thanks for all the great replies. It seems like going for a GS TMIC is the way to go for my purpose (I was leaning towards the decision already). I wanted to weigh the differences and see the pros and cons of each and you all helped a great amount with that. Thanks again.

 

Hey I'll also be heading up to VT after work today. Going to the Burlington area. Wave if you see a BSM wagon on the highway or in town!

[Max Capacity]

If you see a black wagon with GOTSNO plate, that's me. My Spec B has GOTSNOW for its plate.

 

I did find it easier when installing the second GS tmic to put the hoses on the inlets and outlets for a couple day's in the hot shed (summer time) and let them form to the tube's ends in the tmic.