New to me OBXT, help me sort out some issues...

[MTBwrench]

Hi everyone, I've been lurkin' on here since I bought my Outback in early December, haven't chimed in much as I'm super unfamiliar with the way these cars work as of yet. I'm having some issues with my idle when cold, and I can't seem to sort it out. (The frigidly cold weather here in the midwest isn't helping...)

 

A little background:

 

I'm very knowledgeable with GM full-size trucks, and most domestic stuff. I owned a GMT400 for years, and performed all the maintenance on it, including some major engine work, trans rebuild etc. Essentially, I'm pretty mechanically inclined.

 

The wagon:

 

Known as "gramps"(yes, I'm a MCM fan ), is a 2005 Outback XT 5EAT Limited. 191,000 miles. Believe it or not, it's in fantastic condition, and original block! My main decision in buying the car was: old people owned, no rust, and impeccable maintenance records. here it is:

2006 Subaru Outback XT by CenzoBear, on Flickr

 

I've been having a really annoying issue when the motor is cold though. Whenever the motor is cold, say, after a long night, I get a terrine vibration while stopped and in gear. The idle also seems a little low, sometimes reaching as low as 550ish rpm while in gear. It does;t feel like a misfire, as it's very even and smooth, and no codes are showing. If I press the gas slightly and bring it to say 800rpm, the motor becomes smooth as glass. Then, as the car warms up, the vibration gets progressively less noticeable, until it disappears almost completely. I'll also get the vibration *just* before I come to a complete stop, but once again, only when cold. I also have a little valve noise coming from what seems to be like CYl #4(closest to driver). I can hear the valve through the entire RPM range when the cabin is quiet...but just barely. Nobody notices it except me because I'm an obsessive compulsive car owner.

 

I have OBDwiz software(saving up for an AP, don't worry) and everything looks okay, EXCEPT: it's richening up bank 1. LTFT was at ~21%! I have no clue which bank is which on these cars, or if they have multiple banks.

 

Any ideas folks? I'm pretty new to these, my only experience was installing a new(er) VF40 and a Grimmspeed catless up pipe. I did the turbo because the wastegate took a poo on account of 191k miles and the old people drivers never using it.

 

Thanks for the help!

[Rhitter]

I've been having a really annoying issue when the motor is cold though. Whenever the motor is cold, say, after a long night, I get a terrine vibration while stopped and in gear. The idle also seems a little low, sometimes reaching as low as 550ish rpm while in gear. It does;t feel like a misfire, as it's very even and smooth, and no codes are showing. If I press the gas slightly and bring it to say 800rpm, the motor becomes smooth as glass. Then, as the car warms up, the vibration gets progressively less noticeable, until it disappears almost completely. I'll also get the vibration *just* before I come to a complete stop, but once again, only when cold.

 

A compression and leakdown test will show whats going on. If you know anyone near you with a tactrix or AP you can monitor misfires on the cylinders. What you are describing sounds like what my misfires felt like. Only once did I ever get a code.

 

Turned out I had a cracked ringland. Even though when warm the engine felt fine and the misfires went down significantly.

[MTBwrench]

A compression and leakdown test will show whats going on. If you know anyone near you with a tactrix or AP you can monitor misfires on the cylinders. What you are describing sounds like what my misfires felt like. Only once did I ever get a code.

 

Turned out I had a cracked ringland. Even though when warm the engine felt fine and the misfires went down significantly.

 

I'll see what I can muster up in this cold, looks like doing a compression/leakdown test would be a major PITA on a boxer... I'll probably take it somewhere.

 

Woul'dnt a cracked ring land make me consume a ton of oil though? I currently have 1500 miles on Amsoil 5w30 and no consumption. My last OCI with Syntec 5w30 I lost maybe 1/4 quart over 2500 miles.

 

I'll also throw this into the mix, as I forgot to mention: If I start it up and rive away immediately within a minute it doesn't vibrate in gear much at all, not for a minute or two. It's only when I let it warm up for a few that the vibration happens the second I put it in gear. In neutral/park it idles perfectly fine as well.

[Rhitter]

Yeah - ringland should cause more oil consumption. Mine didn't though - I also don't know when I broke it. So it might have been only on 300-600 miles on it.

 

Without the ability to monitor if it's misfiring it's hard to say for sure what's going on.

If you have an extra $100 - this is pretty cool. http://www.btssm.com/

 

Although if you are planning on getting an AP it just duplicates some of the functionality.

 

It could be something as simple as - coilpacks, spark plugs, or injectors, intake manifold gaskets, or a loose / leaky hose.

 

Is it due for another spark plug chage?

 

oh, just realized you are on a 2005 - I think you can buy a VAG-COM cable (take a look at the tuning forum) and use RomRaider to monitor misfires.

 

Intake Manifold gasket replacement - this is for an 07-09. Yours is an 05 with sidefeeds so it might be slightly different

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-rough-idle-cold-start-cold-temps-lgt-07-09-155325.html

[MTBwrench]

Yeah, unfortunately the VAG-COM cable isn't an option for me... I was going to get the access port anyways, not for just data logging, but the stage 1 OTS tune to get rid of the lean spot and timing advance issues.

 

I pulled the plugs yesterday actually, well, the driver's side plugs. They were both perfect, a nice powdery tan/gray color, and lots of electrode left.

 

I've read abut the intake gaskets and it has me wondering. That could be why the fuel trim is richening up, the gaskets shrink and cause a leak... I really just need to get the AP and examine all the data. Not enough moneys right meow though....

[magnusonsubie]

I wouldn't through the vag-com cable option out the window. It is ~$15 on ebay and romraider is free.

 

Have you checked for boost leaks? I know I've had some between the throttle body and intercooler and the turbo flange to intercooler. A boost leak would cause the fuel trims to lean out so I'm not sure how you know that the fuel trims are richening up if you do not have a way to monitor?

 

If you can get the vag-com cable you can use romraider to pull a learning view and that will tell you your learned fuel trims as well as if the ecu has any learned knock locations where it pulls timing. Like OB2.5XT said there isn't much to be able to diagnose what your problem is exactly without having any monitoring abilities.

[MTBwrench]

I wouldn't through the vag-com cable option out the window. It is ~$15 on ebay and romraider is free.

 

Have you checked for boost leaks? I know I've had some between the throttle body and intercooler and the turbo flange to intercooler. A boost leak would cause the fuel trims to lean out so I'm not sure how you know that the fuel trims are richening up if you do not have a way to monitor?

 

If you can get the vag-com cable you can use romraider to pull a learning view and that will tell you your learned fuel trims as well as if the ecu has any learned knock locations where it pulls timing. Like OB2.5XT said there isn't much to be able to diagnose what your problem is exactly without having any monitoring abilities.

 

I stand corrected! I could've sworn I read '05 cars aren't compatible with VAG-COM cables. Just read through the thread again, ordering one now

 

Currently, I'm using a cheap OBD II monitoring program, called obdwiz, you can get it with an ELM327 cable on amazon for $25. Worked great on my GMT 400. It has the ability to read sensors and fuel trims, but nothing as detailed as romraider's learning view. The bank 1 longterm fuel trim in obdwiz showed me a range of ~+21%, short term was same as bank 2, ~+3%.

 

I replaced the turbo-TMIC gasket, and throttle body-TMIC hose when I replaced my turbo. I'm really just posting up to see if it's a common thing or not, that vibration. Because in 0º wind chills, it's real hard to sit in the garage at night and troubleshoot! The wagon drives like new when warmed up so I'm not super concerned right now, but I still have concern. I'm very OCD with both my bikes and my cars. I race XC mountain bikes in the summer season, and I've learned the hard way (once or twice) the cost of not being proactive on maintenance and repairs.

[magnusonsubie]

It may be some cold weather piston slap on start up then. I stayed the night in the mountains and it dropped to 20*F overnight and then in the morning I noticed significantly more vibration on start up until the car was warm. It could be the metallurgy of the pistons expanding as the engine warms up.

 

As far as getting off the stock tune as you have read about here and mentioned previously I would suggest using romraider and ecu flash and an etune from Cryo. I am running a stage 2 tune from him and I know that OB2.5XT was as well until he had his ringland issue. Using the etune will be far cheaper then getting the Accesport as you can use romraider for your logging to send to him. I use btssm as OB2.5XT mentioned earlier with a tablet I got on Ebay for $50. The program is awesome and is a great way to monitor while you are driving as well.

[MAP]

If there is no obvious vacuum leak, i would throw in some techron fuel injection cleaner at 1.5x to 2x the suggested concentration. If you notice a smoother idle, lower fuel trim ratios then the injectors were partially clogged.

The 21%ltft seems high but the stft at 3% seems fine.

 

How's the throttle response? I noticed a lag that disappeared after about 1/4 of the tank (treated with fuel injector cleaner ) was consumed.

[MTBwrench]

It may be some cold weather piston slap on start up then. I stayed the night in the mountains and it dropped to 20*F overnight and then in the morning I noticed significantly more vibration on start up until the car was warm. It could be the metallurgy of the pistons expanding as the engine warms up.

 

As far as getting off the stock tune as you have read about here and mentioned previously I would suggest using romraider and ecu flash and an etune from Cryo. I am running a stage 2 tune from him and I know that OB2.5XT was as well until he had his ringland issue. Using the etune will be far cheaper then getting the Accesport as you can use romraider for your logging to send to him. I use btssm as OB2.5XT mentioned earlier with a tablet I got on Ebay for $50. The program is awesome and is a great way to monitor while you are driving as well.

 

I could see truth in that theory, but I feel like I would get a lot of piston slap noise... but it sounds great. And its not just a tiny vibration, the entire car shakes pretty good, I feel it shakes more than what piston slap would produce. Not to mention my old iron block V8 had scary amounts of piston slap when cold, and never shook like that, even at a 400rpm idle.(For sake of comparison)

 

If there is no obvious vacuum leak, i would throw in some techron fuel injection cleaner at 1.5x to 2x the suggested concentration. If you notice a smoother idle, lower fuel trim ratios then the injectors were partially clogged.

The 21%ltft seems high but the stft at 3% seems fine.

 

How's the throttle response? I noticed a lag that disappeared after about 1/4 of the tank (treated with fuel injector cleaner ) was consumed.

 

Funny you mention that, as I'm actually ~100 miles into a tank with a bottle of Techron injector cleaner in it! Not much of a difference though, honestly. A

 

As for throttle response, it feels the same as the day I bought it, feels like an N/A 4 banger till about 2000rpm, then it makes cool whooshing noises and turns into a WRX type of thing

[BarManBean]

Idle issues when cold? I would look at the intake manifold gaskets--the orange orings that go between the intake mani and the TGV bodies. They are known to shrink and leak over time and yours will certainly be overdue

[MAP]

Just an fyi.. I didn't notice any difference using the fuel injector cleaner until I ran double the concentration.(2 bottles at a time of the stuff that treats up to 20 gal. per bottle)

I also ran 2 bottles of this stuff made by Redline that is supposed to be really good. Passed smog and no problems thuss far.

 

If the car is shaking that bad when cold you might have a pretty bad vacuum leak or misfire. Those manifold seals might be the issue. Stick a vacuum gauge on there to compare when hot and cold.

[MTBwrench]

Just an fyi.. I didn't notice any difference using the fuel injector cleaner until I ran double the concentration.(2 bottles at a time of the stuff that treats up to 20 gal. per bottle)

I also ran 2 bottles of this stuff made by Redline that is supposed to be really good. Passed smog and no problems thuss far.

 

If the car is shaking that bad when cold you might have a pretty bad vacuum leak or misfire. Those manifold seals might be the issue. Stick a vacuum gauge on there to compare when hot and cold.

 

Idle issues when cold? I would look at the intake manifold gaskets--the orange orings that go between the intake mani and the TGV bodies. They are known to shrink and leak over time and yours will certainly be overdue

 

 

This is all just more reason for me to get a Boost gauge for the cubby pod I just bought too

 

I'll rent a vacuum gauge tomorrow and post up the results!

[kzr750r1]

I'd get the new intake seals on as a cheap insurance it's done. You can tell the difference from new to old quick.

 

While your at it change the power steering intake oring.

 

If these don't fix it your next stop is OCVS.

 

Leak down and comression will give you a picture of base mechanical status.

Thats a good number of miles but sounds like you found a great car to tidy up.

 

It's probably mostly highway miles.

[MTBwrench]

I'd get the new intake seals on as a cheap insurance it's done. You can tell the difference from new to old quick.

 

While your at it change the power steering intake oring.

 

If these don't fix it your next stop is OCVS.

 

Leak down and comression will give you a picture of base mechanical status.

Thats a good number of miles but sounds like you found a great car to tidy up.

 

It's probably mostly highway miles.

 

Ill be stopping at my local stealer today to get some updated gaskets. If don't have them I'll go online, as they've messed up 3 of my orders in the last month.

 

The power steering o-ring needs to be done. It's seeping fluid, tough to turn right after start up, etc. However fluid level drops maybe 5mm over two months. I'm trying to hold off for warmer weather... And yes, many many highway miles between Chicago and central Wisconsin.

 

By any chance, is there an OCVS sensor located on the rear of the passenger head? Theres a smalls sensor back there thats weeping oil. I originally thought head gaskets/rocker covers but they're both dry. Im 99% sure its the sensor leaking, but I can't find out what the hell its for. Im guessing cam position?

[kzr750r1]

There are a couple of things that can be leaking back there. If someone messed with the screen then they could have put the banjo bolt back together without new seals.

 

Check to see if the OCVS was ever changed on the maintenance record.

 

Get some new copper gaskets for the banjo bolts.

 

Given all other items are in order your intakes are suspect if they haven't been swapped.

[MTBwrench]

There are a couple of things that can be leaking back there. If someone messed with the screen then they could have put the banjo bolt back together without new seals.

 

Check to see if the OCVS was ever changed on the maintenance record.

 

Get some new copper gaskets for the banjo bolts.

 

Given all other items are in order your intakes are suspect if they haven't been swapped.

 

I replaced the banjo when I did the turbo, used a new bolt and washers, so all is good there! Maintenance records show nothing ever being done to OCVS system.. maybe I'll go against my better judgement and throw some parts at it...

 

I ordered the intake gaskets today, got them online, the dealer wanted $12 a piece! Did I mention how much I hate my local dealer?

 

For what its worth, I delved a little deeper into my diagnostic software and found some basic PID's, and went for a drive. Revealed a little more info.. Keep in mind I'm not familiar with the base tune/map for these things yet.

 

notable things At idle, in closed loop:

timing advance: floated between 15-17º

Maf reading: 0.41 Lb/Min

MAP pressure: floated around 4.5 PSI

 

notable things Driving around:

When accelerating/driving Bank 1 LTFT was around +5%

(Do we actually have 2 banks of fuel trim, or are all 4 cylinders on a single bank?)

When coming to a stop, LTFT spikes to +10 to +15%

Max map pressure: 14.5 PSI

couldn't keep an eye on timing advance