___ Legacy

[Mblock66]

Ehh that entire statement doesn't really hold much water.

 

Give you a less powerful car b/c life isn't all about the 1/4 mile????

 

The Z06 is NO WHERE NEAR the cost of even a carrarra nevermind the 911 turbo. It is less then half the cost. Secondly it isn't all about the 1/4 mile. I think the new Z06 holds over a g in the corners so it will out carve all our rally cars just as it does a porche.

 

70hp per liter for the NORMAL coupe. The Z05 with the same engine is 500 hp. And you know it can hold more. So now you are looking at double the power of the LGT with double the cyldrs.

 

Can it carry people and get groceries? No but no one argues that, that is what the CTS V would be for then. No one is comparing the vette to the LGT anyway, the point is that GM DOES make some mean ass cars. Who cares if it is 50 year old technology???? You think the average buyer even knows that. And the old technology is still pissing on the new stuff at cheaper and more efficiat costs. So why not.

 

Your sledge hammer theory makes no sense either. Yes the interiors may not be as lush but other then that, the Viper, Z06, CTS V, etc are doing the same things that the 911, M5, NSX etc are doing........building fast powerful performance cars. I think that people get lost in the snob factor not overall performance and value.

 

If this argument is about status then I will shut up b/c you are all right. Owning a GM is nothing compared to tooling around in a 911. Not even close. That is like saying that Miller Lite is the same as Guiness. It just isn't. But I don't care much about status. That isn't why I buy a car.

[Mblock66]

Ok I totally realize this is going to get into an all opinion BS war. I apologize if I started it. I will stop! My bad

[Beanboy]

Umm, Subaru had the Outback classified as a car up until the 2004... Gee, Outback has been out since when, 1996? And they have been considered a separate line by Subaru (different brochure, listings in used car sites) since the late 90s. Government has certain standards as to what meets a truck... Ground clearance, approach/departure angles, flat-loading floor, if rear seat can be removed, etc... Subaru decided to raise the Outback a few tenths to get it re-classified as a truck. Here is an article on the subject:

 

http://www.azcentral.com/class/marketplace/cars/0117wheels17subaru.html

"DETROIT - The Subaru Outback sedan looks like any other midsize car with a trunk and comfortable seating for four adults.

 

But Subaru is tweaking some parts of the Outback sedan and wagon this year to meet the specifications of a light truck, the same regulatory category used by pickups and sport utilities. Why? Largely to avoid tougher fuel economy and air pollution standards for cars."

 

Of course, the mileage has improved on them. But Subaru overall was close to the limit in terms of overall fuel economy. They don't have any very small economy cars to compensate for the AWD turbos in their lineup. With the release of the turbo LGT/Outback XT, it would have pushed them over the limit, especially with the Outback outselling the Legacy. Solution? Get the Outback classified as a truck!

 

As far as dirty engines go, go to the EPA site:

 

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-SUBARU-Forester-05.htm

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-SUBARU-Impreza-05.htm

 

There is a supplemental around somewhere with the LGT specs, trying to find it, but I am at work... But as you can see, the WRX and FXT both receive a 2/10 for air pollution score, and a 5/10 for greenhouse gas score. The LGT is the same. And the STi is even worse!

 

The older, dirtier C5 Corvette has a air pollution score of 3/10, and a greenhouse score of 5/10.

 

And bigger hammer? The new Corvette Z06 is lighter than the Porsche 911 Turbo and lighter than the F430. It outperforms them and costs much, much less. So heavy scalpels versus lightweight hammer I guess? Yes, the 911 can launch amazingly well and has AWD. And may or may not have better feel. The F430 has a wail at high RPMs that nothing can match. Both are great cars. But the Corvette is also a great car, and since all are designed for performance, the Corvette should be mentioned beside them.

 

Oh, here comes the output-per-liter argument. Gee, gets better gas mileage and pollutes less, but puts out less-power-per-liter! OMG! It SUX! Bah! Hell, with all that displacement and low-stress, it makes spinning bigger turbos that much easier!

 

-B

[gfxdave99]

Yes exactly the z06 is only fast in a straight line, thats why a $440,000 Porsche GT takes 7 mins and 32.44 sec lap at Nurburgring Nordschleife and a Z06 can make it in 7 mins 42.99 sec. And the 283K Murcielago takes 7 mins 50 sec and the 452k Mercedes MacLarenSLR takes 7 mins 52 sec...

 

If you're going to bash something at least know what the F&*@ you are talking about.

 

And for the record a stock Z51 package vette is only 16 sec slower on the ring which means its just as fast around the bends as a several half a million dollar supercars, but you know.. its really a mullet mobile..

[tantal]

Corvette? Fast in straight line? Yes! Fast in the corners? Yes! Nothing even comes close to it for all-around performance for the dollar. If you want to track race a car, the Corvette is in the top five in terms of performance, aftermarket support, parts availability, and reasonable cost to race. Better by far than anything Subaru or any import has to offer.

 

Subaru raised the ride height of the Outback...and guess what? It is now considered a truck! Guess Subaru was a little slow and has learned something from the domestics. And this is from a company that is all touchy-feely about the environment! Subaru has some of the dirtiest engines on the road, and now a vehicle they advertise as an alternative to an SUV is considered an SUV by the government!

 

Cadillac CTS-V? XLR? The new STS-V? Come-on, you might not think they are cool, but one part domestic V8 with one part European-tuned handling and makes for a potent combination!

 

Oh, and the Corvette gets better highway mileage and has cleaner/equal emissions than our LGT motors...and produces 400HP!

 

-B

 

Blah, blah, blah, domestic car lovers have been saying this for years. GM doesn't know what european handling is. "If you want to track a car" Well, what if I don't? Most ppl don't ever track their cars. Most corvette owners put less than 5k mi on their cars each year. What about a real car for normal pple who want a nice car with excellent performance. For ages GM has been saying "this car is a real bmw fighter" but they've never even come close. Ever driven a CTS? The car is not in the same class as the 325, with respect to performance or styling. The GTO is a good car, but they are going to give it a makeover to look like a child's matchbox again. IF you want to lure bmw drivers, this is NOT the way to do it.

 

GM bites.

[Beanboy]

GM bites...and owns 20% of Subaru's parent company, hehe.

[tantal]

People seem to be blinded by thinking that the car and brand they own is the best!!! Subaru is the bestest!!!! hahaha. Subaru engines are VERY dirty. The turbo engines are something like a 8.5 out of 10 on high pollution motors. While the Covette that will run circles around the LGT, STI, EVO, UMM practiaclly anything you name in ALL catagories except wet and snow.

 

I've never said that or even close. The ONLY reason I own the new GT wagon is that in its category (wagon, manual, not fwd, at least good performance), there are only two competetors: the A4 which is a fit pig and the 3 series, which is not good enough performance as the 325 xi. I don't care about awd; I'd rather the rwd version. I don't like the haldex cars like the volvo awd. Also the GT is a bigger car; the 3 is just too small. Oh, and btw, I HATE the outback bec it does not handle like a car. I want a car.

 

In fact, I cross-shopped my GT with 3 yr old 5 series wagons, the only real all round competition.

 

If I was buying a sedan (unlikely) or a coupe, I would not have even test-driven the legacy GT. There are too many other good options (yes, including the GTO) to even consider a car like the GT which leans too far toward the luxury feel, without the actual luxury to match.

 

My next car is going to be a coupe; teh RX-8, an '02-04 330Ci, the G35 coupe, or a GTO.

 

So, um, I'm not blinded by subaru loyalty. It is simply that this car (MANUAL wagon) is the closest match for my and my family's needs.

[tantal]

The Cassdys are in the same class as the equally priced German and Jap cars too. They just stop at 60k while the others go up into the 100k's so again you can't compare apples to really expensive apples.

 

 

Um, not. You simply don't know what you are talking about. Go test drive the cars.

[tantal]

IWANNASPORTSEDAN

 

+100. Well put.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Give me a less powerful car, because I like the Porsche (any porsche car) more than I would miss the extra horsepower. Handling, and quality of the driving experience means more to me than statistics and more horsepower. It isn't about status, it is about quality, for me anyway.

 

REMEMBER: I drive a Miata, and a 45hp Honda Hawk GT motorcycle. I know how to have fun with power that most people would consider lacking. They are very rewarding in other ways.

 

The Z06 is nowhere near the cost of the 911 turbo because no one in their right mind would pay over 100k for a car with a small-block and leaf springs, and especially not with a playskool interior, regardless of it's horsepower rating. 500hp is still 83hp/liter. If the Z06 is so All-conquering, then why aren't all corvettes built to that spec? And why doesn't Porsche just fold up in the face of Corvette's competition... Because some people want something different, ME included.

 

And the CTS-V still costs much more than a Legacy GT. And as I said, I am quickly getting tired of it's styling. I can't imagine making those payments, and having that car after 5 or 6 years. I would be very tired of the styling by then. I don't think that will be the case with the new Legacy, AND I will be able to afford it.

 

And yes, beanboy was directly comparing the emissions and fuel economy of the Corvette's 6 liter small block to the Legacy GT's 2.5 Turbo flat 4.

 

The fact that the small block is 50 years old is the reason that you have all of your talking points. All of the wonderful aspects of the small block V8 are attributable to the fact that it has been put in almost every rear-wheel drive GM car and truck since 1955. No other engine has the benefit of 50 years of development.

 

The "bigger hammer" theory refers to how the cars were designed to make so much power. Ever-bigger 90-degree pushrod V8s, or A huge pushrod V10 is a BIGGER HAMMER. Speed is Speed. I concentrate on HOW different cars attain speed. Some use bigger hammers, some use technology.

 

GM isn't adding strides of new technology to their powertrains in order to gain power. The only thing they seem to be adding is cubic inches. That is adding a bigger hammer.

 

You mention the 911, M5, NSX, and the list can go on... Ferrari, Jaguar, etc. How many of those cars have had pushrod engines in the last 20 years, or in some cases, EVER? How many of them have gone over 4 liters of displacement? The M5 has, and it is also a 4000lb sedan. The BMW V8 is still light-years ahead of the small-block, technology-wise. The V10 certainly is. I think BMWs are getting heavy and ugly, but they make a hell of an engine.

 

You may think that people get caught up in snob factor, rather than overall performance and "value". However, I think that people over-estimate monetary "value" to justify a point against a car with a better driving experience. I would enjoy driving a Boxster S or Cayman more than driving the more powerful Corvette. I know something about the cars, and influences how I approach them. I don't need to have bragging rights. I want to thoroughly enjoy the driving experience.

 

My previous post was purely my opinion, and how I look at cars. I don't care if most people have no idea that the small-block has been around 50 years. I know that has. I don't have a grudge against the small-block. It has it's place. That place includes the new Corvette. My place isn't as the owner of a new Corvette. That is just ME, and I have made every effort to isolate this opinion to myself.

 

Besides, for every Corvette, CTS-V, STS-V, XLR, and SSR GM sells, How many hundred thousand crappy impalas, Malibus, and fish-eyed cavaliers did they sell? By and large GM sells FWD muck to people who expect FWD muck. You all may love the Corvette. Good for you. You can't judge the largest car company in the world by a handfull of it's special vehicles.

 

And why did they need to offer "employee pricing" and extend it so long? Why have they offered HUGE rebates AND 0% financing since late 2001?

Why are GM, and Ford for that matter, in financial crisis? It ain't because the Corvette is lighter weight than a Ferrari F430... It is because most of their car lineups are crap.

 

You may not buy cars for status. I don't buy cars only based on horsepower figures, or brand names.

[Drakuun]

If you take a really hard look at the new '06 Impala's they -are- Legacys. Same size, shape etc. The 3rd window at the back gave it away.

 

I live in Michigan so seeing scads of GM 'potentials' driving around is common. I caught a line up of impalas about a month back and thought.. "dang, those look like Leggys" they had an 03-05 body style in the mix and you could clearly see that the '06's were lower, shorter, and thinner by comparison. It wasn't untill a week later when I saw another 06 impala on the highway.. this time with a Legacy follower that I really got to compare them together, and my suspicions were confirmed.

GM has used some of the Legacy body stlyings, and size to re-make the Impala.

 

Go check it out

[Mblock66]

Hahah well I don't buy cars based on power either. Otherwise I wouldn't have a little 4 banger subaru.

 

I still don't understand your "theory" at all. If GM isn't using technology then how are they acheiveing more then new technology. If "new" technology can't outperform old technology then it is usless. It has its place too, under the better working more efficient price effective technology.

 

I am NOT talking for myself though. I am talking for the massess. You all compare Subaru or Acura or Infiniti to GM. Think about that. How can you compare a company with 100's of vehicles in every price range to ones that make 10 cars total.

 

YOU CANT.

 

Buying a Z06 isn't pure numbers based. It isn't pure this or pure that. It is simply the best overall choice from an unbias view. However people do like options and status and design and percieved quiality. So porsches sell.

 

Oh and if you ask the ferrari crowd, they laugh at the porche crowd. It is allllll relative.

[Beanboy]

Why aren't all 911s built with turbos then?

 

And in no way do I want Porsche to fold...or any other high-end performance car company selling vehicles in the US. In this thread, I am fighting the bashing the Corvette was getting in terms of a "straight line only" car and not a great overall performance car, which it is.

 

And does it matter really how the power is made? The Corvette Z06 is lighter than the more "technologically advanced" competition that costs far more. Weight, as a owner of a Miata and Hawk you already are keenly aware of Iwanna, plays a huge roll in terms of performance. How long has the Flat 6 been around in the 911 BTW? Must be getting close to 40 years.

 

So through technology, the competition is heavier with less power, gets equal or worse fuel economy, and puts out equal or more emissions...

 

Is the wail of a Ferrari at 8K worth it? Is additional possible steering feedback worth an additional 100K? Is AWD in the Porsche worth an additional 60K? Depends on the person! But from the performance perspective that the class of these cars are in, when it comes to track day at the local road course, the Corvette is right there with what Europe has to offer.

 

-B

[Mblock66]

Exactly, so if you take out the "bling" factor and run all of your choice cars against a 65k Z06 then it will hold up in all categories EXCEPT wet and snow against an AWD 911.

 

And the other thing is......TURBO. Not a NA engine anymore. If you properly turbo or superchage a Z06......forget about it. They don't need to go this route in order to make the same power.

 

Personally I think porches are WAY over valued. My neighbor had tons of carrera, targa, and most recently a 200X 911 Turbo. It is fast and all but not worth $130k. It is all hype and status. People know that if you own a porche it is a status symbol. The boxter is a poor car too for close to 60k.

 

Ehh whatever, this converstation will never end. People don't keep an open enough mind about cars and just simply BASH GM or FORD or IMPORTS or whatever. They need to learn a little bit more before they TRY to give a blanket statement. GM has some crappy cars. But for what it is worth. I owned a 1968 GTO 1995 Grand Prix 1997 Camaro Z28 and a 2001 Acura CL Type S before my LGT. Guess which had the most problems......YUP ACURA. Tranny failed 2 times and had to be replaced in 3 years! New technology rules hahah

[Beanboy]

Yeah, are we done with this thread? I need to work peoples!

 

Short version: All I am asking is to put the Corvette equal to exotics in terms of performance. Bash away in terms of interior/feel/status for personal preference on which one you want to drive.

 

-B

[gfxdave99]

(ibtl Dance)

[IwannaSportSedan]

If you have the money, it is probably worth it. If you don't it's a moot point.

 

I'll tell you this. If I were offered ANY car, regardless of cost. It would be a ferrari or a porsche. It would NOT be a corvette.

 

Adding cubic inches to an old engine is not adding technology. It doesn't have variable valve timing, it doesn't have overhead cams (which is not even new...) and the only way it makes more power than the competition is by simply being BIGGER than everything else. It is quantity versus quality.

 

If you have to ask: "Does it matter really how power is made?" then it isn't going to matter to you, and that is fine. I have not once told anyone they were wrong for holding their opinions here. But please don't tell me that everything besides the corvette is just a lead-weight, poser-mobile and inferior to the Corvette.

 

It does matter to me. I could get a car with 250hp, like a crown vic with a 4.6 liter v8. No thanks. Legacy GT for me. I could get a Bonneville with a supercharged 3.8 V6, or even a northstar V8 now. Nope.

 

What did Corvette sacrifice for it's lighter weight AND cheaper price... For one, it has that 50 year old engine design that has been long since paid for. Interior, no contest. Build quality? I wouldn't stack GM up against Porsche there either. Suspension and brake feel? I have a feeling Porsche puts more R&D in to get it just right.

 

I have read some comparos with the 997 Carrera S and C6 Vette. The Vette has a decisive weight and power advantage... Why then did the Carrera hold it's own?

 

Everyone I have ever discussed this topic with, who has taken GM's defence Always claim the cost variable... Ok, so the Vette is cheaper... but is it also CHEAPER? Maybe it is, maybe it is not any longer. But I'll tell you something. It isn't as good looking, inside or out as a Porsche, which aren't exactly lead weights, either, and in the boxster's case, better balanced.

 

And the watercooled Porsche engine is not 40 years old. Probably not even 14 years from the drawing board.

 

You seem to only compare Corvettes to more expensive cars, to accentuate the "value" aspect. What about the upcoming Cayman? What about the M3? What about having fun in a 350z, or something less expensive, with less power? If the more expensive have less power anyway, then all of these cars should be inferior to the goliath Corvette, regardless of costing less or more.

 

BTW, Mblock, what good is hundreds of vehicles when they consist almost solely of cars like the impala? They sell well to people who don't expect any better.

You wouldn't catch me owning one longer than it would take to trade it in. Even if GM is trying to infuse the Impala with Legacy's handsome lines, it is still a boring FWD lump with a failing visual resemblance.

 

Subaru builds few model lines, but just one of those few will fit my needs better than the multitute of all (all of the same 20 cars, rebadged 5 times) the General's offerings. That is where 10 is better than 100.

 

Mazda makes comparatively few model lines, too. The Miata was unique until recently. And my wife and I will be keeping ours as long as we possibly can, or trading for another one. One jewel is worth more than a whole load of garbage.

[VXCL]

honda is known for glass auto trannys especially for the j series engines. my last car was an acura cl as well cept i had a slow 4 banger f series. reliable like the sun though.

[Beanboy]

Ah, so through the 1990s, Porsche was sticking with air-cooled technology! Talk about holding onto the past! I mean, back in 1883, the first engine used for a car was air-cooled! And they switched to water cooling in 1885!

 

Here is what the Corvette is for:

 

Thus Hill is being modest when he comments, “Our benchmark car was the Porsche 911 Turbo—that’s a car we purchased and have present whenever we’re doing an important assessment.” And then he can’t resist taking the expected swipe. “We also have a Viper, but we knew we were going to leave the Viper far behind,” he adds, fighting to suppress the hint of a mischievous schoolboy smile tugging at his mouth. The new, more powerful Viper GTS may prove Hill wrong, but he could to varying degrees add 911 Carrera S, Aston Martin DB9, Lamborghini Gallardo and Ferrari F430 to the hit list. The new 997-series 911 Turbo, like the Ford GT, should match up well with Z06, but even if these cars ultimately prove quicker, they likely won’t leave the Z06 “in the dust.” Those cars will also demand buyers dig far deeper into that offshore account."

 

And who has said the competition is, "lead-weight, poser-mobile and inferior to the Corvette?"

 

Again, I just want to prove to people the Corvette stands as equal to cars costing 3x-4x as much when it comes to performance. It is a great all-around performance vehicle, not just a straight line performer that can't turn.

 

Can you agree to that Iwanna?

[gfxdave99]

Name one bone stock unmodified car that can even touch 0-60 in 3.7 sec and a 11sec quarter mile for anywhere near the Z06's base price.

 

For what it is, its a bargian by any stretch of the imagination.

[tantal]

Name one bone stock unmodified car that can even touch 0-60 in 3.7 sec and a 11sec quarter mile for anywhere near the Z06's base price.

 

For what it is, its a bargian by any stretch of the imagination.

 

The whole conversation was about how GM bites. The fact that you can point to one car out of a hundred and no more as being even a decent car demonstrates how clearly GM bites.

 

Okay the corvette is cheap for a 2 seat high performance track car. Yes it blows away the viper. Big deal. However, it doesn't touch my GT, or a ford escort, for that matter, when it comes to transporting my family, um, anywhere, whether it's to the grocery store or a cross country trip. Neither does any other vehicle made by GM.

 

This idiotic craze with trucks is just a drug for this loser company, sending it further downhill as it focusses on building vehicles that can't continue to exist in a world which is and will continue to become more and more conscious of fuel efficiency.

 

GM does not know how to design a desirable car or an efficient car. I'm concerned about it because our country's future is going to be strongly affected by the performance of this terribly run company.

[Mblock66]

And the comments about looks? I think the 911 has looked "the same" for like 30 years. They do minor tweaks tothe body (in my opinion) and it just looks like a refreshed version of the ones from the early 80's.

 

Nothing spectacular there at all. I honestly never see a Porsche and go DAMMMMNNN b/c they have looked the same for so long. I personally can't even tell the models apart when they drive by anymore.

 

The vettes on the other hand I think are handsome and distinguished. They went through many changes all which you can easily categorize. Again all opinion.

 

If you gave me all the $ in the world to buy a car I wouldn't buy a vette either. I would have an Aston Martin. But that isn't b/c it performs better. It is b/c the thing is just pure sexy to me. For the real man, how many of us would even be able to afford a 130k 911 turbo????? Not I but a 65k Z06 might be in reach and outperform 99.9% of other vehicles on the road. Now that is a superior car if you ask me.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I never said otherwise. I never said the Corvette couldn't turn. I never said the corvette wasn't as fast as much more expensive cars.

 

I said was that I didn't think the corvette gives the driver quite the same quality of experience as the european cars, and that is what leads me to prefer the europeans over the Corvette, even if they are slower for the same price, or more expensive for the same power.

 

You and Mblock seem to be the ones saying or implying that since the Corvette is lighter, has comparable or higher horsepower, and costs much less, it must be superior to all competitors, and thus single-handedly can raise GM from the malaise it is in.

 

Mblock incinuated several salvos ago that the competition is all about style and prestige, and hinted at poser-value. Morons buying expensive cars because they are expensive doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the cars themselves. A ferrari or a Porsche, Aston Martin, and several others are still extremely competent sporting cars, and usually at or very near the state-of-the-art.

 

I think it is interesting that they are modeling a front engined, large-displacement, RWD V8 car on a small-displacement flat 6, force-induction, REAR-engined, AWD car that costs nearly double the price. Good on them if they can/have attained it, I am not trying to diminish GM's efforts, But you have to admit, those cars have technically very little in common.

 

The Porsche 911 isn't exactly a format that others are copying, and how many american car fans have in the past, looked at a 911 and claimed it being an over-grown VW Beetle, or commented on how the engine is in the completely wrong place... Now it is the benchmark. Interesting how things turn about.

 

I don't mind you guys defending the Corvette. It isn't perfect, but you have every perogative to do so. It just seems like everyone who does feels they must diminish the competition to do so. Oh, they weigh an bit more, have less power, get worse fuel mileage, and some of them cost more... And just maybe are considered better by some of us.

 

I have to agree with you, Mblock, the new astons are HOT. They cost about as much as as Porsche, too. Personally, I can tell many of the porsches apart, especially after they went water-cooled. the 996 and 997 are some of the purest designs ever. They have heritage Ford and GM only wish they could get. Personally I think that Porsche 911 coupes and the Ferrari 430 are the closest you can get to s3x on 4-wheels, nowadays.

 

On the other hand Corvette has methodically changed over it's last few generations since the mid-70s. Yes you can tell them apart, but they haven't exactly broken new ground like the 60's vettes did. I am not a big fan of GM's US design department, and I can see where the Corvette looks under-developed, styling wise. Mostly from the front. the rectangular foglights and grille opening just look too hastily designed and blockish on a car with no other rectangles. The C5's front wasn't any better, and the whole car looked overly large.

[Mblock66]

 

GM does not know how to design a desirable car or an efficient car. I'm concerned about it because our country's future is going to be strongly affected by the performance of this terribly run company.

 

Obviously it does. They sell more cars then anyone else. Plus don't forget that many of their trucks are used for towing, lugging, work duty etc.

 

You can't do that with a LGT. So trucks with HEMI, VORTEC, etc are needed. IF people are rich enough to buy an escalade then they can afford the gas for it. That is my thought process.

 

If you are going to be concerned for the future of our country, I wouldn't worry so much about GM hahaha. There are much much more important things to be worried about.......Iran+5 years = Nukes

[Beanboy]

tantal: "Corvette - so what. fast in a straight line"

 

Tantal, do you agree the Corvette is good all-around sports car now?

 

Iwanna, what do you think of the Solstice?

 

There's no bashing going on. I don't think the domestic crowd says "booo!" to the exotic competition as much as the other way around, but I usually don't frequent Corvette/Porsche/Ferrari boards all that often, so that statement is pure conjecture.

 

-B