Who wants to complain more about HIDs?

[mwiener2]

moved to exterior

[doteleven]

I think one of the problem of the stock Legacy H7 is the way it sits.

Notice that notch at the base is not sitting at 6 o'clock position?

it is somewhere like 4 o'clock or 8 o'clock depends on which side you look at it.

For stock halogen bulb is fine, however, for HID bulb, there might be an issue since there is a return wire.

 

Now, most of the rebased HID setup has the return wire line up with the notch. When you put that kit into our H7 housing, that makes the HID bulb not sitting properly.

 

That's the reason why I use a H7->D2S adaptor ring, I could turn the HID bulb and make sure the return wire is sitting at 6o o'clock position like stock HID projector setup.

 

Ok v33k... after seeing some of the pics compared to other folks pics, I will agree your setup looks alot better than theirs. I'm not completely convinced it is as good as OEM - but I think that it may be alot closer to OEM than I had originally stated, and my apologies.

 

Now what exactly did you do? You didn't replace the projector bodies, right? Did you just buy a D2S aftermarket bulb kit (which most of them are), and then buy the adapter rings?

 

Albert

[VXCL]

Did you just buy a D2S aftermarket bulb kit (which most of them are), and then buy the adapter rings?

 

Albert

 

yes and no.

 

he used oem d2s parts and peiced it together. 2 bulbs and 2 ballasts. then used adapter rings to help position them and keep them in place. and had to wire them up.

[v33k]

A projector is a projector, it's all about the focal point and the cut-off shield.

 

Take a look at this guy

http://www.crxsi.com/resources/album/pages/jvxdriver.htm

 

He uses some normal projector foglight, make himself a cut-off shield from a coca-cola can. Retrofit D2S HID into it.

 

Too bad that his website is gone, otherwise, you can see more.

http://www.geocities.com/jvxdriver/crx_mod.htm

 

 

 

If you want to compare the quality of Legacy HID retrofit with some top notch OEM HID. Of course Legacy won't be as good. However, the Legacy H7 projector w/ HID retrofit is already better than quite a few factory installed HID.

[turboliberty]

Improperly aimed HIDs make baby Jesus cry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think about that.

[ldc2335]

buy some piaa or nokya 100w bulbs, ive had them on my ram for a year now with no overheating problems......might not be as brite as hid's but the color is nice and the output is far better than standard halagen walmart bulbs......im sure ssomeone will have something to say to disagree with this, but these work for me and ive tried tons of wattage and brands....pure white light with a blue tint...perfect..only neg is slightly reduced visibility on wet roads but never to the point that i felt unsafe or wanted to take em out.....the light is there but since its pure white, and not off whitish-yellow, you dont see it on the road when its wet..make since?

 

http://dodgetruckworld.tenmagazines.com/gallery/ldc2335/209608.jpg

http://dodgetruckworld.tenmagazines.com/gallery/ldc2335/205163.jpg

http://dodgetruckworld.tenmagazines.com/gallery/ldc2335/205162.jpg

[2005garnetGT]

just like the M3 is a crap cheap car with a great motor and some good suspension? I mean, they give those things away in germany when you put the 1.X liter 4 cylinder in it. And the S4, I mean, you can get an A4 cheap. What a POS!!! And, who would buy an M5 when they sell

 

 

 

The cars share drivetrains and aren't significantly different in cost to build at similar spec points, that's why there's price overlap between the two. Of course, different markets have different hot price points. Subaru could probably sell the impreza and the legacy here much cheaper with less features and smaller engines like they do overseas. they didn't to keep impreza prices up.

 

of course, none of this has any bearing whatsoever on the quality of the platform of either car.

 

 

 

"essentially the same" is a funny phrase. For example, the previous generation legacy was more "essentially the same" as the current Impreza than it is the current Legacy GT. Except that the current impreza is stiffer, has better crash performance, etc.

 

unless you're referring to the name on the trunk, and then, you're right.

 

 

 

these flagship debates are always funny. Is honda's flagship the S2000 or the Accord? What about Nissan, 350Z or Maxima? Who cares?

 

Most companies have a performance icon, which is the STi for subaru. It's the viper, Z06, Carrera GT, etc. it's the Halo car. Subaru also knows that these things don't sell the volume to support a company, and that most buyers are "aspire" buyers. the legacy is being pushed up market to fill that role, while still retaining the brand's newly captured (in the US) performance image. Most of the time, though, this car competes with the accord, maxima, etc., and also with the entry luxury A4's, 3 series and that sort of car.

 

The fact that the legacy GT is the leather/luxury subaru and the STi is the track oriented model doesn't make either a POS, though, no matter how cheap you can buy a stripped version of the car for in a 1 liter market.

your both wrong, the b9 is clearly the flagship now

[Xenonk]

ah yes, the oversized R1/R2

[The B4]

your both wrong, the b9 is clearly the flagship now

 

 

it's clear the B9 is the flagship...but it is rare to have an SUV be the flagship...Suv's command more status than the average car...probably because they cost more...but it is the tip top car in the line that is normally the flagship that showcases the best that the brand has to offer in a well rounded manner. I can't think of any other automaker with a Flagship SUV...It is ideal to have a flagship and a halo car. Nissan has the halo 350z and the flagship Maxima. BMW has the Flagship 7 series and several halo cars...each with its own notoriety (M3, M6, M5). For some...the flagship and halo are one in the same.

 

I would like to see Subaru have a true Halo...the STI definitely is a halo car...but most auto manufactures are building dedicated halo cars(Audi Lemans, BMW's has a sport car concept as does Lexus, Toyota, Infiniti, the upcoming NSX, and so on and so forth)

 

The B9 scrambler or a freshened B11S would do nicely :-D

[doteleven]

it's clear the B9 is the flagship...but it is rare to have an SUV be the flagship...Suv's command more status than the average car...probably because they cost more...but it is the tip top car in the line that is normally the flagship that showcases the best that the brand has to offer in a well rounded manner. I can't think of any other automaker with a Flagship SUV...It is ideal to have a flagship and a halo car. Nissan has the halo 350z and the flagship Maxima. BMW has the Flagship 7 series and several halo cars...each with its own notoriety (M3, M6, M5). For some...the flagship and halo are one in the same.

 

I would like to see Subaru have a true Halo...the STI definitely is a halo car...but most auto manufactures are building dedicated halo cars(Audi Lemans, BMW's has a sport car concept as does Lexus, Toyota, Infiniti, the upcoming NSX, and so on and so forth)

 

The B9 scrambler or a freshened B11S would do nicely :-D

 

Some SUV halos...

 

The Saab 9-7

GM's entire Hummer division (I would argue the American and in fact world public view Hummer as a halo more than the Corvette or Cadillac V-series XLR / STS / CTS)

Range Rover

[The B4]

Some SUV halos...

 

The Saab 9-7

GM's entire Hummer division (I would argue the American and in fact world public view Hummer as a halo more than the Corvette or Cadillac V-series XLR / STS / CTS)

Range Rover

 

a company of only SUVs will ofcourse have an SUV flagship and halo if it does have a halo vehicle...the H1 and H2 are definitely Halo vehicles as is the Range Rover

 

I would not call the saab 9-7x a halo...Saab is much like Toyota right now in not having a halo car...i would still call the 9-5 Saab's flagship.

[PeteNJ]

A projector is a projector, it's all about the focal point and the cut-off shield.

 

Take a look at this guy

http://www.crxsi.com/resources/album/pages/jvxdriver.htm

 

He uses some normal projector foglight, make himself a cut-off shield from a coca-cola can. Retrofit D2S HID into it.

 

Too bad that his website is gone, otherwise, you can see more.

http://www.geocities.com/jvxdriver/crx_mod.htm

 

 

 

If you want to compare the quality of Legacy HID retrofit with some top notch OEM HID. Of course Legacy won't be as good. However, the Legacy H7 projector w/ HID retrofit is already better than quite a few factory installed HID.

 

You are sorely misinformed. Please visit hidplanet.com and readup in the "HIDplanet University" forum. There is a reason why HID conversion kits are illegal. Take the time and retrofit a proper set of projectors into your headlights. Thanks

[mach_six]

Isn't the projector housing the same in the JDM legacy that has HID? I would assume it would be the same housing to save cost and even more by giving the US market halogens.

 

I really don't know why people bring up the legality issue like that's going to stop people from doing it. If the cops don't care and don't even know what cars come with what or can't even tell then why should you. Maybe talk about how to make it more safe instead.

[Drift Monkey]

Isn't the projector housing the same in the JDM legacy that has HID? I would assume it would be the same housing to save cost and even more by giving the US market halogens.

 

I really don't know why people bring up the legality issue like that's going to stop people from doing it. If the cops don't care and don't even know what cars come with what or can't even tell then why should you. Maybe talk about how to make it more safe instead.

Correct, and this has been my assumption from the beginning. There is no hard evidence to prove otherwise....and would not make fiscal sense on Subaru's part. The onlt way to "prove" my theory would be getting "real" JDM/EDM HIDs and comparing them to a car with a "retrofitted" HID kit. I am willing to bet they have the exact same beam propteries, and that they are the same exact parts.

 

Beam design is much more crucial than light source, so why would Subaru re-engineer a whole new projector lens just for USDM?

[Drift Monkey]

First off, HIDS, or lack of HIDs is not a deal breaker. Otherwise we would all be saying that Audi, Volvo, Acura, etc. are better.

 

The thing is HIDs are something Subaru should offer on their technically better car. Subie's AWD and Turbo H4 are better/more powerful than the competition. We just want this flavor icing on the cake. Especially when the neighbors HAVE that flavor on the same kind of cake.

 

Why not get a cheap HID kit???

 

First of all, they are illegal. Retrofitting a HID bulb into a halogen rig might work "ok" but it might also NOT. It NEVER works as well as a proper HID setup, complete with the correct projector, or a HID-designed reflector.

 

The Subaru Legacy's H7 projector is easy to fit a HID bulb into. And the pattern looks better, and does put out more light to the naked eye. But it is nowhere near as efficent with it's light pattern or cutoff than a true HID projector. The 06 WRX STi will have a true HID projector, as do the overseas market Legacys that have HIDs.

 

To the person who complains about HID headlights from behind at night... how many of those that really annoy you are illegal retrofits? Probably most, if not ALL of them.

 

It is all about the cutoff. There is a blade in front of the bulb, or around it that causes a strict horizontal pattern cutoff, so that it lights the road below the cutoff very well, and no light is projected higher than the cutoff. little or no blinding oncoming or preceding drivers.

 

The cutoff blade and the reflector in the USDM Legacy's low-beam projector were designed for a halogen filament. Putting an arc-type HID bulb in, even if the filament and the arc are in the same position, doesn't focus or cutoff the same way. That is true for most HID retrofits, some worse than others, and is why other drivers get glare.

 

VXCL and I, and many other members here have discussed this at length in the exterior/lighting forum, and there is a lot of good information there, as well as VXCL's pics of his retrofit of HID PROJECTORS into his Legacy headlights, and some beam comparisons.

 

When done right, HIDs with proper cutoff and pattern will amaze people who have never used them, with how much more light is output to the road, because so much more light is generated. This isn't a "tornado" hype type of thing, this is a real advantage when driving after dark.

 

This isn't a "BMWs have it, so I must also..." scenario. This is that BMW and many other manufacturers have recognized the advantage of HID lighting, because it is a distinct improvement. I want a Subaru Legacy GT for many reasons, and this feature is something I wish it had. (and does have in other parts of the world. US Legacys even have a breakout in the fuse panel for the relays and fuses, it is just absent.)

 

The thing is, that in the Legacy's price class, considering it's competition, Subaru should be offering this option. I DO NOT think it should be standard equipment. If I want it, I'll pay more for it to be correct, and legal. You shouldn't have to if you don't want it. I don't want NAV, and don't want to pay for it, in much the same way, but others do.

While I'll agree that retrofitting HIDs in most cars is generally a bad idea, I do not think it is pertaining to the Legacy.

 

The fact is, it is not proven that the JDM/EDM projectors are indeed different, nor is it proven that USDM projector lenses are specifically designed for halogen filament bulbs. This is all heresay, and until someone gets a set of JDM/EDM lights to compare, and frankly, I will bet that they are EXACTLY the same. It wouldn't make financial sense for Subaru otherwise.

[IwannaSportSedan]

At the very least, the reflector sections of the projectors HAVE to be different, even if the cutoff sheild, and the lens and lens holder are all the same...

 

And of course the cutoff sheilds would be different part numbers in other markets, considering they would be backwards otherwise... The cutoff sheilds might also be different between HID and halogen, in addition to being LHD or RHD. They are just a sheet-metal stamping, so they don't cost much at all, but they would make a difference in the lighting.

 

An H7 and a D2S bulb may have extremely similar dimensions, but the bases are different (why else would an adapter ring be necessary...)

 

If the reflectors are different shape, even just a minute (and likely not discernable to the human eye) amount on the way they focus on a cylindrical, defined filament, or a linear, un-defined arc, that is what makes the difference between a well defined beam, or a spotty, inaccurately cut-off beam.

 

I am not saying that fitting HIDs to a Legacy is the worst thing... Far from it. Legacys seem to respond better than most. According to VXCL's research, and his pics of the disassembled OE projectors, it wouldn't be hard, and would probably be very necessary for subaru to have a slightly different reflector and cutoff sheild for the HID projectors versus the halogen projectors. And also, VXCL's pics seem to show that a OE HID projector is noticeably better beam pattern and cutoff than the original projector with D2S bulbs inserted.

 

It seems a bit obvious to me that Legacy headlights (and most other modern headlights) are assemblies within assemblies.

 

The high-beam reflectors are probably universal, since they are not lane-dependent, right or left.

Side indicator reflectors are also probably universal, and mirror imaged for right and left... Some are fitted with amber reflex reflector inserts, others are not, some are plated bright chrome, others are a shade or two darker.

The bezel pieces come in different colors. Some black, some chrome, some matte silver.

 

There are probably several permutations of the low beam projector sub-assembly.

They may or may not be different in having to mount into the right or left headlight assembly...

 

There are probably right hand drive, and left hand drive sets for Halogen H7 base bulbs, with the corresponding halogen reflector, and appropriate directional halogen cutoff sheild.

 

There likely are conversely right hand drive and left-hand-drive HID projectors, with their D2S-specific reflector/socket housings, and the appropriate directional HID-configured cutoff sheilds.

 

The costs for the halogen assemblies are part of the costs of building the car. The cost of having to make separate HID projectors AND wiring are figured into the option costs for the OEM HID option, along with additional profit margin.

 

The OE Manufacturer, Valeo, Bosch, Hella, whoever makes those lamp units for FHI in the first place probably already designs those permutations to be certified in various countries. TUV, MOT, USDOT, etc...

 

However, they probably did save some costs by configuring the 06 Impreza lineup, and the B9 Tribeca, as well as the Legacy/OB to use those same permutations of the low-beam projectors, so if they have to have 4 or 8 slightly different sub assemblies, at least they could use them across model lines. That is why I have a feeling the '06 USDM WRX STI's LHD HID Projectors will probably work in the Legacy/OB housings...

 

If you think about it, for all the permutation of the interior parts for RHD or LHD, different tail lights, different bumpers, and in some cases, different engines and support parts for every different model, for every different market, plus special models like the Blitzen, WR Limited, STi-tuned, GT Spec B, 3.0R Spec B, and so on for just the Legacy/Outback model.

 

Parts Differentiation is not an uncommon issue for a manufacturer like FHI/Subaru, and the economies of scale make changes pretty inexpensive to make.

 

The reason we don't get them, I'll bet lies with SOA. SOA is similar to a franchise of FHI in Japan. SOA has to "buy" its rights, and materials to build Legacies, and B9s. On the other hand, it probably buys Imprezas as whole units from FHI, as they are built in Japan. SOA probably just wants to be cheap, and easy, thinking that every little dime saved will help the bottom line, while slashing available options...

 

Why do you think they hacked the 5MT and interior material and color choices on the second year of the current legacy in the US? Legacy/OB isn't the new car on the block this year. B9 and WRX are. WRX Limited gets leather interior color choices, BTW. It isn't because a 5MT wagon is more expensive to produce. It isn't because one color of interior costs more than the other, or any of that...

 

It is an overly-constrictive management policy at SOA that says no to any kind of added complexity, in hopes that it will save them money. By not offering the options people want, while other manufacturers DO offer it, they will loose more money in lost sales and fewer units sold, than if they just spent that extra dime in order to make twenty bucks. That is why we don't have HIDs, that is why we don't have STi Performance parts, That is why we don't have alternatives to the implanted audio system, and so-on, and so-forth.

[Drift Monkey]

I see your point, but profit margins would signifigantly decrease from a profitablity standpoint, so I still think they use the same projector lenses. None if it is provable until we get a real set of JDM/EDM projectors to compare. I still think they are exactly the same...but that's just an opinion until it is proven/disproved. '

 

In the mean time, all retrofitted kits I have seen, even up close (a friend with a 2.5i even drove behind me all night) and they have been nothing but OEM-like. No glare, no spottyness, no real problems that I can think of. In fact, compared to Acura's and other reflector based housings, it is STILL far superior, and lacks the glare everyone seems to comlain about.

[PeteNJ]

I see your point, but profit margins would signifigantly decrease from a profitablity standpoint, so I still think they use the same projector lenses. None if it is provable until we get a real set of JDM/EDM projectors to compare. I still think they are exactly the same...but that's just an opinion until it is proven/disproved. '

 

In the mean time, all retrofitted kits I have seen, even up close (a friend with a 2.5i even drove behind me all night) and they have been nothing but OEM-like. No glare, no spottyness, no real problems that I can think of. In fact, compared to Acura's and other reflector based housings, it is STILL far superior, and lacks the glare everyone seems to comlain about.

 

This is simply UNTRUE. The projector design has to be different BY LAW. A halogen light source and a HID light source are two completely different beasts. Please visit this thread (A prius owner who bought an HID Kit and claims that the headlamp reflector assembly on his car is the same as the HID version)

http://hidplanet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11518

 

Note: Projectors DO use a reflector bowl to gather light.

[Xenonk]

This is simply UNTRUE. The projector design has to be different BY LAW. A halogen light source and a HID light source are two completely different beasts. Please visit this thread (A prius owner who bought an HID Kit and claims that the headlamp reflector assembly on his car is the same as the HID version)

http://hidplanet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11518

 

Note: Projectors DO use a reflector bowl to gather light.

 

 

you're using another forum as your source of crediability? I dont think that's going to hold up. You need to find a patent# to show the difference.

[TSiWRX]

^^^ Careful brother Keefe,

 

The HIDPlanet Forums is about as credible as our LGT forums....or any other enthusiast Forum, for that matter, as a source of public knowledge.

 

It's considered pretty decent in the lighting enthusiast circles. Not quite CandlePower Forums, but then again, CandlePower itself isn't *specifically* automotive-dedicated, either.

 

-----------------------

 

I just wished that Mr.Bulk and Paul Kim would design some custom automotive HIDs, and that Ken Good would all teach us about their proper tactical use!

[Drift Monkey]

This is simply UNTRUE. The projector design has to be different BY LAW. A halogen light source and a HID light source are two completely different beasts. Please visit this thread (A prius owner who bought an HID Kit and claims that the headlamp reflector assembly on his car is the same as the HID version)

http://hidplanet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11518

 

Note: Projectors DO use a reflector bowl to gather light.

OK, even then I'd gather you prove me wrong in a Legacy sense, not a Prius sense. Also - find me a Legacy HID retrofit and prove to me it causes unsafe driving conditions for oncoming drivers.

 

When comparing HIDs in the Legacy housing as opposed to, say a Acura reflector type housing (Acura OEM HID)....I've noticed a better beam pattern and output from the Legacy then the said Acura (TL). Glare seems to be the same for both....

 

The question is...how is this "retrofit" any harm to anybody....I mean, I can understand in reflector housings why this would not work....but I've seen nothing but positive results with the USDM LGT housing, and have no further reasoning to tell anyone intrested in doing it otherwise...

[The B4]

I've never even been flashed in my Legacy and I do a lot of driving...Plus i live in the land of hippies where they would be more likely to flash me.

[Hank3]

From personal experience, I'm currently running a 4300K HID kit with Philips components in my Prodrive UK300 lights. The Prodrives are equipped with Hella 90mm H7 Halogen Projector units. I can tell you that although lighting is improved over some halogen (reflector or projector setups), it is still inferior to OEM-equipped cars that have projector HIDs. The hot spots are evident due to the projectors being made for halogen filament bulbs. I'd venture to also say that the USDM Legacies are equipped with halogen projectors, however, I'm in agreeance that until there is proof that the JDM HID projectors are different than the USDM ones, one can't say for 100% either way. Any way we can find out the manufacturer of the Legacy projector units - USDM or JDM?

 

Pics of my modified projectors on my Subie - the reflector shields were modded to get rid of the flare from the ECE light pattern:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Hank3/Hank11.jpg

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Hank3/Hank10.jpg

[doteleven]

Yes - there is a way to find out whether our projectors are the same as HID projectors (read this thread carefully). The Taiwanese market has LHD vehicles, AND nearly all cars there (including Corollas, no less) have HIDs. So we just need to see what the Taiwanese get.

 

Albert