NutBucket Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Yeah, I mean that's what Sean told me..that he's sold about 30 sets and never had a problem. I have (haven't shipped it back yet) the adjustable bar and it slides left and right at least an 1 inch both ways. I can't budge the stock one at all. Again, my front bar (also adjustable) has caused no problems at all. I think I got a bad bar or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I may be spiff balling here but it sounds like the general problem is with adjustable RSB across the board. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xantium Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 There's the JDM Rear sway bar that should just fine as well. I thought i heard it slides laterraly and cuts your brakelines and catapults into a firey pit in hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 my Cusco (Vacanza) is adjustable and I dont have this issue. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I thought i heard it slides laterraly and cuts your brakelines and catapults into a firey pit in hell? No...thats your wife doing that after she found a reciept for $500 from an ATM at The Admiral. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 my Cusco (Vacanza) is adjustable and I dont have this issue. Keefe Well those arn't available. Lets just say Cusco did it well. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xantium Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8162 thats what i was talking about... the firey pit in hell.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 my Cusco (Vacanza) is adjustable and I dont have this issue. Keefe Keefe - would you mind posting a pic showing the placement and size of the Cusco rear bar and it's adjustable mounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I will put mine up on ramps and snap some pics off as well. Just cause I'm bored. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perrin Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 PERRIN LGT REAR BAR ISSUES! The pictures and info everyone has given us, had been very helpfull. We too are trying to figure out why some of these cars are having the problem and many aren't. When we designed the rear swaybar, we wanted to have more adjustments that others our there on the market. With that said, we had to make a slight comprimise on the stiffest setting (closest to the bushing). In out instructions we explain the the rear most stiffest setting can only be adjusted while on the ground, and the car can't be lifted off the ground while the endlinks were connected. This setting was left for the autocross guys and track event guys who would like the stiffer setup for those events. The reason why you can't install the endlink on the stiffest setting is because of the interference with the control arms like in some of the pictures. With that said on the middle setting and with the wheels at full droop, the swaybar can be very close to the control arms (not interfearing though). But as soon as the wheel moves up, that clearence becomes much larger. The stock position (22mm setting) has no issues do to the endlink being is the position that Subaru intended it to be. The more we (every Subaru Tuner) change the way the stock part are being used the more we run into issuse like this. We could make the bar with one setting, like the JDM part some people have gotten, but most people wouldn't be happy with that and would buy the part that does have more settings. So we come back to the problem at hand. The bar WILL work in both the 22mm, and 23mm settings. IF they don't it could be some varience in the car, and or some varience in the part. The parts are welded in a fixture that locates the holes in the flange at the end of the bar. Even though this can be very accurate, there are always things that happen. I would assume that on the bars hitting the control arms have a slight tolerance issue with placement of the flange. The only part that is hitting the flange is 3rd setting which most people aren't going to use anyway. We could completely eliminate ANY issues with our LGT swaybar by eliminating this 3rd setting, but this may not make some customers very happy. But with that said it seems that there are people that are happy with just the one setting, so maybe 2 IS ok. Lets fix the problem you guys are both having. I had emailed and called Patagonian GT about measuring a couple of things so we can determine if it is a manufactureing issue. I now understand that the bar is coming back to us so we can check it. It may just be a simple fix with a new bar, or it may be something else. When we get the bar we will report our findings and get to the bottom of this. Hopefully this isn't a Wagon issue, if so it looks like besides the auto downpipe we are making, we will be adding some new bars! Some people may now be looking under their car to see if their PERRIN bar is hitting also. One thing to keep in mind is that, if the swaybar was installed, then someone lowered the car (causing the wheels to droop further than normal) this will cause the marks seen on the swaybar. So if your car isn't making noise, then don't worry but feel free to look. Regarding the front bar shown, being in the stiffest position will also have some tight clearances with wheels at full droop, but no interference. But once back on the ground it should be fine. The bar you have pictured is of the first batch, and we have changed it slighty to look better and have a little extra clearence (no more sharp edges) so it doesn't look so scary with the wheels at full droop. Thanks again for the feedback we like to hear and see fist hand problems people are having. Far to often people get pissed off, take parts off their car, and sell them with out even contacting us to try to solve the simple problem. Also thanks for giving us a chance to help and solve this issue. We do want to be known in the Legacy community for having perfect, trouble free parts that everyone lusts after and communication like this will help us get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/xenonk2828/GT-Car/IMG_0028.jpg Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Lets fix the problem you guys are both having. That's good news, however if the fix is a non-adjustable bar or one with less adjustability, we will need to have a conversation about that. We bought your product over all others for the adjustability - not being able to use all positions for fear of hitting the swingarm is not a good design feature. I had emailed and called Patagonian GT about measuring a couple of things so we can determine if it is a manufactureing issue. I now understand that the bar is coming back to us so we can check it. I haven't gotten any request to measure anything. The bar will indeed be on it's way back to you for inspection as soon as I get something to use in the meantime. I got rid of my stock 16mm bar when I upgraded to the 20mm JDM bar (sold after I bought Perrins), so that leaves me in a predicament (and one of the reasons I wanted an advance exchange). -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Just to reaffirm the scenario this happens under: -Legacy GT Wagon -ALL STOCK SUSPENSION COMPONENTS (less the Perrin Bars) -Front Bar rubs in tighter two positions, haven't tried 3rd position -Rear bar interferes in ALL positions And yes I do know there is a difference in appearance of where things sit at full jounce versus versus completely unloaded. But I can also see the travel oh the various components and can do the math, it just doesn't add up to a positive light. It's clearly in the bar design. If the mounting points were inline with the bar I would see this as much less of an issue. Also ironically the constant screeching of the brakes (or so it sounded like) while driving alone is gone since I've changed the bar out. It really makes me wonder what was going on with the bars. Jeff please PM me or please return my email. I replied from work yesterday though I'm not completely sure if it sent, but between this comment and the last I answered your questions, and no my car is not an Outback XT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERRIN TECH Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Dan, Please don't forget that I offered to send you a replacement bar along with the call tag. (Admittedly, you would need to temporarily pay for the replacement bar during the time in limbo.) You did not feel comfortable with that and we can certainly understand. I only want to make the point that we are not refusing to help further. Jeff did e-mail you the request for the additional information (measurements etc.) to help determine prior to shipping it back whether or not it was a manufacturing defect. He has not heard back from you on this request. You may also want to mention that you demanded a complete and total refund of purchase price on both front and rear bars, as well as all other PERRIN Products. That demand was made before any other information was given to us here. It was "unreasonable" to expect a consumer to work through a warranty process and therefore the money should come first and the parts second. I mentioned to you that your retailer would be the only party able to help with the monetary side of the equation. You explained to me that too was unreasonable and PERRIN should bear burden for the retail cost etc. While that request was certainly not met we hope that the efforts put forth by the staff here is now meeting your standards. Our job is still first and foremost to determine the cause of the problem as well as get you a properly mfrd. sway bar that does not interfere with the stock components at stock ride height. If that requires a new design or a design change we are more than willing to do that. As I mentioned we are more than happy to work with you (and others) using the warranty on the product. Any concerns over refunds would need to be directed to the retailer. Jeff and I are determined to find the root cause and solve these issues. Please continue to allow us the opportunity to do so. Thanks again to the members of www.legacygt.com! Adam PERRIN Performance 503-643-4677 xt 203 adam@perrinperformance.com http://www.perrinperformance.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I just looked at my car again....I have the issue on both sides of the rear bar, not jsut the left as I had thought. The RR is flattened and there's a gouge in the swingarm. I will check my front tonight as well, but since I have the Spec B OEM 'sports' suspension from Japan, the extra spring stiffness might have helped keep things in check. It's stock height, so it's not a case of lowering the car as was implied before. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Dan, Please don't forget that I offered to send you a replacement bar along with the call tag. (Admittedly, you would need to temporarily pay for the replacement bar during the time in limbo.) You did not feel comfortable with that and we can certainly understand. I only want to make the point that we are not refusing to help further. I wasn't comfortable with it because you wouldn't guarantee a refund if there was no problem found in the manufacturing, thus our discussion about design issues vs. a defect. I don't need TWO bars that don't work on my car Jeff did e-mail you the request for the additional information (measurements etc.) to help determine prior to shipping it back whether or not it was a manufacturing defect. He has not heard back from you on this request. I received no email from Jeff. Perhaps you meant Seth? You may also want to mention that you demanded a complete and total refund of purchase price on both front and rear bars, as well as all other PERRIN Products. That demand was made before any other information was given to us here. Not a single word of that is true and you owe me an apology for mistating our conversation Adam. We spoke on then phone AFTER I sent you pics showing the issue. That was proof enough of the problem. If you remember, you blamed my AVO endlinks for the issue. Odd, since I still have the noise and interference issue with stock endlinks. I stated that I had spent ALOT of money on Perrin and Alta parts and I expected a better response than I got from you. If things weren't satisfactorily resolved, I said I would make a point to pull Perrin off my Subaru and Alta off the MINI. I won't support a vendor who won't support the community. I never asked for a refund for all parts, but only the sway bars that don't perform up to your advertising (adjustability and no interference). Jeff Perrin - this attitude is why I wish only to deal with you from here on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3695/img00157wt.jpg Driver's Rear rounded y0 http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3123/img00140ff.jpg Driver's Rear left teh notch on teh arm. http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/1207/img00134bi.jpg Driver's rear notch again http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/1476/img00125it.jpg Passenger rear, same deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perrin Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Dan, Maybe you didn't read my sentence about why we designed the bar the way we did. I said that we made the bar to be adjustable in the first to settings with ZERO clearence issues(yes you are having issue with the 2nd setting, which this is what this is all about). The 3rd Stiffest setting (which no one else does) does have to be installed with the wheels on the ground, and the car can't be jack up in the air because of the swaybar hitting the control arm. With that said it is a good design feature to have the extra hole for those wanting the super stiff setting. This stiffer setting with any bar will have this problem. I sent you an email 2 days ago asking for the measurment, but i heard nothing back, not a big deal though, i was just trying to get an idea (before it was shipped) if it was a manufacuring issue. Not that this would effect us taking your part back. Maybe the 2 hole swaybar is the answer, but i would hope to hear from the LGT community if they feel this would be ok. We would be stepping our part down to the level of the others, but not as far as the JDM part with one setting. I would be more than happy to let you to try out this "future bar" if that is something you are interested in. SUBE555, The front bar shouldn't rub in any positions at all. Your picture shows it being close to the control arm but not hitting. The rear bar Should only rub in the 3rd position, none of the others. And with that not all the time. You are saying all the time??? The stock setting doesn't hit at all, not a single person had complained of this. Maybe you are the first?? If you do see how all the other components rotate together, you will see the clearence gets greater and greater the further the wheels compress. If you look at the stock bar, the SINGLE mounting point is bent to fit between the control arms. If you can imagine the stock bar sitting where it does then adding a flange to add the 3 holes for the endlink, that is what we have done. Making them inline is not the answer, because if you move the endlink to the sitffer setting it ONE pulls the bar down, and TWO doesn't bring the endlink that much closer to the swaybar pivot. Xenonk, swaybar he has picture, i bet doesn't get any stiffer with the placement of the second hole. Patagonian GT, I have been informed of most every conversation you and Adam had, and one of the things you didn't like was that we couldn't gaurrantee was that you would get a full refund. I heard Adam even say that is unlikely that we will send the bar back to you the way it was, but we cant' GAURRANTEE it. We have come far enough with this situation to understand you are not leaving something out of the mix. Many times customers want to send us back something that is bad, when it is something else that is the cause of the problem. In the end this costs us money, time, and the other customer not being happy with us. It is imparative to find out all the variables to each situation to come to the root of the problem. From what i have heard from the conversations we have been very understanding, and been very nice. And we also offered to take care of you so there is no added shipping costs on your end. I don't understand how you can be angry with us. You posts hear come off far less angry that you are on the phone. It seems as though you are trying to make us look like we are blowing you off. Which is very very far from the truth. Obviously we aren't or we all wouldn't be talking here. I am sorry you think " I won't support a vendor who won't support the community", because we absolutley are supporting the community. If you only knew how much time we send on the forums anwering peoples question regarding our part, and even OTHER peoples parts. PLEASE don't say things are aren't true just because you are angry. You have the right to be angry but once again, we haven't done anything wrong in trying to take care of you. LGT community, The fix for this is very simple, and will be done right away. But i think there is far less people here that are effected by this. Where there is a varience in the cars, or this is wagon issue, or that there is a varience in our part. Our prototype fits and works perfect on our car in all normal positions from full droop to full compression in the first 2 settings. Our car we built this on is a sedan (still not sure if that matters) and is a very very early production. This could be why we don't have this issue. But with that said if something happened to the fixture, or something happened in the model changes in the cars. Who knows! But its not like we are NOT going to fix the problem! Its not like we are blowing people off and not being helpfull. It should be obvious to those who have read our posts and responses. What people haven't heard is what had been thrown at us verbally. I think we have reacted very calmly and proffesionally. Drift Monkey, Wagon or Sedan? Car in the air or on the ground? Yours looks like it hit a couple of times and hasn't for a while because of the marks being somewhat corroaded, not shiny like it always does. This leads me to the "Swaybar installed, then lowered" scenario. When you lower the car and remove the lower connection of the shock, the suspension will droop past a normal point and it surley could cause the swaybar to hit the control arm. So my question is, does the clunk happen all the time? On a side note: Stop posting so quickly or i will never be able to finish writing this response Jeff PERRINPERFORMANCE.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Jeff - all points taken and appreciated. I was put off by Adam's attitude towards me, so he got it back in spades. Denial is not a river in Egypt, but it is the way I was treated from the first contact. Anything but accepting that there MIGHT be a problem seems to be SOP. I take issue with that. Let's leave it there and I will agree to move on. I honestly didn't get an email from you. I know that Seth (SUBE555) got one from you, but I haven't seen anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Drift Monkey, Wagon or Sedan? Car in the air or on the ground? Yours looks like it hit a couple of times and hasn't for a while because of the marks being somewhat corroaded, not shiny like it always does. This leads me to the "Swaybar installed, then lowered" scenario. When you lower the car and remove the lower connection of the shock, the suspension will droop past a normal point and it surley could cause the swaybar to hit the control arm. So my question is, does the clunk happen all the time? Jeff PERRINPERFORMANCE.com Sedan. In the air. The marks look shiney is person...the edges are a bit rusted, but who knows. As for the swaybar then lowered scenario, I'm afriad not. I installed the sway bar a week+ AFTER installing coilovers. I haven't noticed many clunks myself...but it is very appearent that the bar has hit at some point or another. This leads me to believe that there is an inherent design flaw somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggert Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 so is there a difference in suspension setup and clearances between a sedan and wagon? besides the extra weight i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERRIN TECH Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 froggert: thanks for asking. By the service manual, sales brochure, parts cross referencing using SOA, there is no difference. However, on this forum the issue seems to be most directed toward wagon owners. This more than likely a coincidence, not an assurance that the two cars are different. As mentioned previously the WRX wagons and sedans do differ in this area. But the swaybars for the sedan and wagon (aftermarket) are identical in nearly all cases. We have a local wagon owner with our bars as well as our in house sedan test mule that we will try Patagonian's bar on once it is returned. We will get the issue (at least with our bar) squared immediately. Thanks for asking! Adam PERRIN Performance 503-643-4677 xt 203 adam@perrinperformance.com http://www.perrinperformance.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 The front bar shouldn't rub in any positions at all. Your picture shows it being close to the control arm but not hitting.The bar rubs when the steering is turned. The rear bar Should only rub in the 3rd position, none of the others. And with that not all the time. You are saying all the time??? The stock setting doesn't hit at all, not a single person had complained of this. Maybe you are the first??Well I tried each of the positions some time back, the middle seemed to produce the most neutral settings while the least rattle, it's not constant on a purely flat road (those are less than rare as we all know) and the very least changes in suspension geometry changes. If you do see how all the other components rotate together, you will see the clearence gets greater and greater the further the wheels compress.That may be to an extent, but the question remains is why both bars are making contact with little movement at all. I could see it somewhat minor if the contact was close to full jounce at the bump stops, however, this is far from the case. If you look at the stock bar, the SINGLE mounting point is bent to fit between the control arms. If you can imagine the stock bar sitting where it does then adding a flange to add the 3 holes for the endlink, that is what we have done. Making them inline is not the answer, because if you move the endlink to the sitffer setting it ONE pulls the bar down, and TWO doesn't bring the endlink that much closer to the swaybar pivot. Xenonk, swaybar he has picture, i bet doesn't get any stiffer with the placement of the second hole.I'm not quite sure I agree with your design theory analysis. I had Cusco gear on a previous vehicle and it performed flawless, I doubt their abilities have changed. While we agree to disagree on several things, the fact remains I have wear on both front and rear bars with coorelating wear on OEM components that should have zero wear from sway bars, even in my personal and professional opinion under what you mention as extreme conditions like track days and autocross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tronix Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Cusco = perfect Keefe Werd. Perfect for me too, and one of the cheapest. -Tronix(no brainer)GT for more pics and info... http://angevine.org/legacy/legacy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scans007 Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Well I have the same problem with my Perrin bars. I AM IN THE MIDDLE SETTING and always have been you can see the results below.......I really hope this gets taken care of since I have spent a boatload of money with them. Front/Rear Sways, Front/Rear Endlinks, TMIC, and Catback exhaust.....I'm the perrin poster boy http://www.pimpmyauto.com/Pictures/Swaybars/Large/DSC02333.JPG http://www.pimpmyauto.com/Pictures/Swaybars/Large/DSC02336.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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