brandon.mol

I got my digital inclinometer today. It claims to be accurate to +/0.1 degrees near horizontal and vertical and +/-0.2 degrees everywhere else. It appears to be precise to better than that as I can repeatedly measure the same value over and over. I put together a jig with some 3/4" angle aluminum and nylon bolts as feet. I calibrated the inclinometer while mounted to include any variation in the length of the nylon bolts. I measured camber directly from the top and bottom of the rim and got -1.4 degrees for both of the fronts and -1.9 for both of the rears. Both of those are within the error of either my laser-based measurements or the inclinometer measurements alone, and well within the combined error of the two. This leaves me feeling very confident with my results, so far. If all you care about is camber, this is definitely simpler (and faster) than the laser method, however it won't get you toe and it is less accurate unless you get an inclinometer that can do +/- 0.1 in any orientation (hard to find for reasonable $$$).

I can't tell if that is a cross-line laser versus a point-beam. You need at least a vertical line beam (i.e. forms a vertical plane of laser light). These are usually referred to as cross-line lasers, as they usually have both a horizontal and vertical beam and form one, the other, or both. I have a Black and Decker BDL310S, which I got on Amazon for $75 with free shipping. Looks like there are more (and possibly better) options on the US Amazon store. They are also very useful for many reno and household tasks. Be careful not to buy a laser "line level" that shoots a line in one direction only along a wall. Those won't work. it needs to fire a line-beam out to the side. Mine goes up and down about 45 degrees so I only have to have it around the bumper to get the beam to the top of the wheel. The dewalt and Bosch ones are very good, but more money. If the one you mention is in fact a line laser and not a dot-beam, then it looks great. If it just shoots a dot-beam, it won't work. Here is a graphic that makes it clear what I am talking about: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/ee/ee89cc52-7f50-4da4-b6e5-9df8687cb88e_1000.jpg

Sort of, but mostly in the past. I was in the land surveying business, as well as sub-sea surveying down in the gulf o' Mexico recovering rigs after Katrina. Done a lot of work in construction surveys for precision stuff, like ultra-flat hospital floor concrete layout, ground subsistence and building deformation monitoring, and control surveys. Also things like positioning system alignments on large ships, offshore rigs etc to calibrate subsea sonar gear. Kind of a mixed bag of stuff. I generally avoided legal "land" surveys because I found it boring. That was a number of years ago. More recently I am working in IT setting up enterprise geospatial information systems which doesn't involve freezing my nuts off in Alberta winters nor being cooped up sea-sick on ships offshore.

Update. I have made all the measurements on my car and the results look good. Built into the process is a way to detect errors/blunders, etc. I can reliably measure the offsets to +/- 0.5mm with the laser I have. Check out the spreadsheet link above to see the results, here is a summary: http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=200483&stc=1&d=1421050569 Which seem right based on how the car is driving, and also compared to my last alignment report + knowing that my Blacksteins would have settled a bit more. Once I get my lower control arms and toe arms installed and adjusted, I will get another set of measurements and then take it for a professional alignment and report back the differences. Oh and Steve buddy.. I happen to be quite qualified to develop something like this. I have a degree in Geomatics Engineering and have deep understanding of measurement system design and error control/estimation, and the geometric accumulation of error though spatial measurement systems, etc. Particularly when it comes to precise-positioning and dimensional-control. What makes you qualified to call any of this nonsense? You "sir"... are nonsensical. Hopefully this thread is helpful to others. Especially those who make alignment changes and need a way to measure the results.

Alright, here is the spreadsheet that will do all the calcs for the laser-based alignment check: Laser-Based 4-Wheel Alignment Calculation Spreadsheet Feel free to make a copy of it for your own purposes. It is free (as in beer) and free (as in speech) and comes without warranty of any kind, expressed or implied. You need a Cross-Line laser level, preferably self-levelling, and a good quality metric light-coloured ruler/scale. I am using a survey-grade measurement rod, and may get a laser target for improved accuracy. Up to you. Here is the measurement procedure to follow: Park the car on a flat surface, and make sure the car is level side to side (front to back doesn't matter). Try to minimize twists in the car - use your laser level to find the differences left to right and shim the wheels up if there are variances of more than 1/4 inch. Place the laser level on the ground near the front of the car on the left side and project the vertical line rearward, roughly parallel to the car. By roughly I mean within a few inches is fine. The angle between the car and the laser is irrelevant, as long as it doesn't exceed about 30 degrees, which would be several feet out, so you're fine as long as it looks close. Measure offsets from the line to the rim surface at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions on the rim. Doesn't hurt to measure each a couple times. Always take the smallest reading, which means the ruler is perpendicular to the laser beam. Wave the ruler around a bit to find that spot. Record your measurements. Do this for each of the front and rear wheels on the left side. Move the laser to the rear of the car and project it forward. Again it doesn't matter if its parallel or even parallel to the last set. Repeat the above for both wheels. Its important to take the measurements with the laser at each end. This will cancel out any systematic errors in the self leveling mechanism in the laser level or any misalignment in the level vial on a manually levelling one. For anyone with a surveying background, this is probably obvious. Its like face-left and face-right on a transit/total-station. Repeat this procedure on the other side of the car. Enter everything into that spreadsheet. The whole measurement process should take maybe 20 - 30 minutes, tops. You get individual toe at each wheel, toe-in front and rear, camber at each wheel, Cross-camber, and thrust angle. You can't get caster...I don't think. maybe you can, if someone knows how to calc it.. but I am guessing its not so simple. I have developed this process using techniques derived from my background in industrial metrology and precision surveying. Obviously, the instruments being used here are not survey grade, and certainly not metrology grade, but we also don't need thousandths of an inch here. +/- 0.15 degrees per wheel toe/camber is near as good as any alignment rack out there anyway. The procedure is developed to not require anything other than a straight plane laser beam, which is easy to achieve with low-cost lasers, especially indoors. I would definitely be interested in seeing some comparisons between professional alignment results and this method from several people. I've also got the on-wheel jig setup with inclinometer and direct toe measurements coming soon. I'll make sure to use both methods and compare results. Shortly I will fill in my own numbers and you can all see them. To me, the purpose of this is mostly for checking your own alignment or for tweaking adjustable parts like coil-overs, lower control arms, toe-arms, etc.

Doesn't matter if the line is parallel. The average of the 12 and 6 positions on the front minus the same on the rear is the constant used to correct the 3 and 9 position measurements. Since wheel diameter is small compared to wheelbase, the error create by that is proportionally small... Fractions of a mm.

So I have been contemplating different measurement processes for doing my own wheel alignments, or at least measuring my current wheel alignment. #1 goal is to do this for less money than 1 [professional] wheel alignment the first time, and effectively for free on subsequent times. #2 goal is to be accurate to +/- 0.2 degrees for each of camber, total toe, individual toe, and thrust angle. So I think I have come up with a few methods that used in conjunction will work well and I will do all these and follow up with a pro wheel alignment to validate (once). First method: To measure thrust angle, individual toe, total toe, and camber: I bought a self-levelling cross-line horizontally projecting laser level. Set it on the floor near either end of the car with the vertical line/plane running down the side of the car, roughly 3 - 6 inches away from the car, as parallel as you can get it (OK if its not exact - it won't be, don't try). Using a good quality metric ruler, measure the offset from the center of the laser to the lip of your rim at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock. Do the same at the rear wheel. Now move the laser to the opposite end of the car and repeat from the other direction. This roughly cancels out any systematic miscalibration in the laser. Repeat on the other side of the car. Some of the calculations (for total toe and for thrust angle) using this method require knowing the difference in track front to rear. Based on previous alignments I've had done on my car, that is only 0.03" on my car, so I will ignore it. With these measurements we can calculate all these angles with a root-mean square error of about +/-0.15 degrees based on my calculations. I will be putting together a spreadsheet that does all the math and will share it. Second Method: Total Toe obtained by measuring the the difference in distance between the front and back of each pair of wheels. I am building a pair of jigs each out of a couple cheap 2-foot levels and an aluminum straight edge and some hardware that I can mount to each wheel and then use a digital level (inclinometer) to measure the camber directly to 0.2degrees and measure the toe-in/out by measuring distance front and back of the wheel between the two jigs. Measuring the cross dimensions will tell you if the wheels are perpendicular to the effective-axel or not. However...you can't measure thrust angle unless we assume the wheelbase is identical on both sides of the car, which it isn't, but I guess thats not hard to measure either. I've read about people using a pin in your tire or a line, etc, but that doesn't work well when you only have 3 inches under the car to pull a tape. You need something that extends out from the wheel and down near the floor. Once I have this all figured out, I'll post pictures, if anyone cares. What d'y'all think?

Update. Can't get KCA125 toe arms from whiteline anymore so I went with Megan ones instead, sticking with the purdy Whiteline rear LCA. And I dropped the end links Cuz not-racecar

I like that they have hardened rubber instead of polyurethane. Some interesting stuff and its nice that they list compatibility with the Legacy.

Also http://www.buyhardrace.com which is US based.. ...however they don't appear to have all the same product as the corporate page, but surely it could be ordered.

Screw it. I ordered up a Whiteline aluminium rear LCA, Whiteline adjustable toe arms, and Whiteline adjustable end links. I may or may not need all that but its cool, and that Whiteline LCA is sweet looking. I was going to go with Megan but I got the Whiteline for about the same price once shipping/duty was included...plus its aluminium so should stand up to salt better.

I've looked high and low and I can't find pu bushings for the rear trailing arm rear location. All I can find are the rear trailing arm front location made by whiteline (WHI W0568). Am I missing something here?

Good advice, thanks. A decent alignment costs 180 to 200 around here and shipping is brutal, so I was thinking maybe I will do trailing arm bushings and toe arms all at once (would cost about the same I think) White lines vs Megan's? I am thinking white lines (125s). So you think its more likely to be trailing arm bushings vs toe arm eccentric bolts? I've read that they are prone to slip. Or just a cheaper diagnostic step?

So I am finding myself having to get alignments done 2 to 3 times per year and almost every time my right rear toe is way out...like 3 degrees. So I am thinking of replacing either the toe arms or trailing arms with Megan's or white lines, gtspecs, etc. This is solely for the purpose of strengthening things and reducing/eliminating adjustment slip and therefore preventing unintended alignment changes. I have *noticed* very few examples of guys on this forum replacing the trailing arm. Is that because there is no point? Should I assume the toe arm is responsible for my alignment woes? I am contemplating doing the LCA, toe, and trailing links to just be done with it. Thoughts?

I think it looks funny because its so far up the hood. Needs to be a 6 -12" forward.

Yeah. It sits lower than it needs to. Today we got a nasty blast of winter and there were chunks of snow/ice from wheel wells all over the place and when I hit them it makes a pretty loud GONG sound. I know its doing its job but I am going to see if I can mod it for a bit more clearance. Will report back with findings. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/09/4fbc30795b27311c1212f06b65f38d7f.jpg

Does anyone know how much suspension travel our cars have in the front, in particular with blacks/bilsteins? I have scrapped my skid plate in the road a few times now in places that seem like I shouldn't. Wondering if I have less clearance under the skid plate than I have travel, which would be bad.

Seat Bolster Mod Stuff the bolsters on the sides of your seat bottoms for more support, and a better "bucket". Also helps prevent that hard lump in the seat from digging into your hip bones! http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/stuffing-drivers-seat-bolsters-231037.html

^^^ That would be FANTASTIC. I would be all over that... Do you want to PM me how much you would want to put that together for me? If you are interested, I would be willing to just pay you up front for the springs, donors, konis, shipping and of course your time... EDIT: To answer your question, no I wouldn't do the install. I don't have a spring compressor and I am not comfortable doing it. I'd take it to a shop. I could probably do the rears myself.

I'm on OEM springs and struts right now, with a WL 22mm adj bar out back on medium. I'm absolutely beside myself how terrible my stock suspension has become. Where I live (Edmonton), the streets are terrible. And I mean there are potholes in the spring here that can take the wheel off your car. You are literally swerving around them one, after the other, after the other. Last year I taco'd an aluminum rim (out of round, lip bent, and a wobble) and knocked my right rear out of toe by 3.5 degrees. And thats on my winter 17's going 40kph (25mph) on a city street. The tire took it like a champ but my wheel and alignment didn't. Also, they don't plow residential streets here in the winter. Thats right, they JUST DON'T plow the streets in a city of a million people, and we get a fair bit of snow (though not near as much as the east coast). Lets just say I put my AWD and skidplate to good use. The upside is that I can go drifting downtown at night on snow-covered streets, which is pretty cool. Sooo..here is my conundrum: I want to maintain as much ground clearance as possible, so I am contemplating these spring options, and strut options: Springs: 1. 2012 OEM springs, currently on the car 2. 2014 OEM springs, which I assume are cheap, but no idea. 3. Blacks 4. Eibacks Struts: 1. Bilsteins 2. Konis + "new" donor struts I like the sound of the adjustability of the Konis and they are a bit cheaper, however, I am not comfortable doing the strut change myself in the front, so I don't think it is feasible to have a shop do the strut cutting/insert swap, etc. (I would do that myself) so I would need a second donor set of struts, which would probably make that option more costly than just going with Blisteins. The bilsteins seem easy, and I like easy. I asked RCE about running OEM springs and they said "lots of people do it" and are happy with it. I want significantly more dampening is all so I was wondering if anyone has experience running OEM springs with Bilsteins? I can't find an example though, which makes me uneasy and says a thing or two about how wise it is to do. The other aspect is ground clearance. I don't want to lose any (or much). Now here is where it gets interesting... I've been looking at photos various people have posted, and it would appear to me that my OEM springs are sitting about the same as any photos I have seen of the Blacks. I measured top-of-tire to fender in the front, and I've got 2 inches. Not sure how that compares to other setups (with 225/45/18s). I assume this is because they are sagging so badly, and therefore I may not lose any ground clearance at all with a set of Blacks? I bottom out ALL the time, but the dealer says its fine and the struts are all normal, no leaks. Not worth the fight, because even a new set of OEMs would be only slightly less terrible. However I am worried about it being too stiff if I get blacks. There are basically three problems I want to solve by replacing struts or struts and springs: 1. Get rid of the bouncy-bouncy ride, and get rid of the nose dive. 2. Keep the wheels planted on the ground while cornering. Especially the rears. Seems to me like the rear struts have absolutely no rebound dampening at all. 3. Get rid of the highway wandering, especially with a cross wind. I feel like I am going to fly off the road. Changing my wheels to 8" 42-offset and thereby adding 13 mm of +scrub from whatever OEM spec is appears to have helped this, but its certainly not gone. Advice? My gut feeling is to get Blacks/Bilsteins and be done with it, but I am worried about harshness on rough roads.