blankdeluxe Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 As I have said before, I'm new to Subaru but not to building cars in general so I'm not a complete dummy when it comes to building/maintaining/replacing things. I currently trying to get a build list together for a ej25 that I'm planning on swapping into my car. To give everyone a low down, I have a 2.2l with a 5mt in a 97 wagon right now. I was tossing around the idea of building a 2.2 hybrid with a 2.0 turbo top end on it but decided that if I'm going to be putting money into a motor I might as well get the one I have wanted in a Subaru since the first time I drove one. My plan is to get a 2.5 off craigs or at the junkyard and tear it all the way down and rebuild it the way I want. I would ideally like to put about 250 at the wheels and I want to make sure I do it the right way so that I can still have a reliable motor at the end of the day. This car is a DD and the 2.2 will be staying in the car while I build the new motor so I can still drive it while I tinker on other things. The real question I have is what is the best way to go about getting 250whp out of this thing while still keeping it as reliable as possible with a turbo. I have been looking at forged everything for the bottom end but I'm not sure if I need to be spending all that extra money if I'm not trying to push the motor to the max. Also what is the ideal compression ratio that I should be looking at when I put in new pistons. Just trying to compile a good build list so I can have an idea on my total costs. And is there a 2.5 that will be easier then others to put in my car/wire/do ECU stuff over another. Any help is appreciated and I'm sorry if a question like this has been asked in the past. (searched a bit but didn't come up with as much as I thought I would) http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/blankdeluxe/KGrHqNoUFDCIENIZwBQ4Gb8Mm60_12_zps99364e41.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleaidestar Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 http://www.jdmtigerjapanese.com/subaru.html...this is a good site from a lgt member that has built a pretty impressive motor for his 1st gen ss. Before you go forged internals and spend thousands upon thousands you can start with an indestructible base motor..if you want 250 hp, these motors will give you that and a lot more support instead of turboing a motor that isn't designed for a turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankdeluxe Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 http://www.jdmtigerjapanese.com/subaru.html...this is a good site from a lgt member that has built a pretty impressive motor for his 1st gen ss. Before you go forged internals and spend thousands upon thousands you can start with an indestructible base motor..if you want 250 hp, these motors will give you that and a lot more support instead of turboing a motor that isn't designed for a turbo. I'm not worried about the expense(within reason). And I want to build the motor myself. I understand the ease for buying one and putting it in but I would prefer to build it and have the knowledge of the inter workings. I like to waste time in the garage and this isn't an overnight quick as possible project. Thanks for the link but not what i'm looking for. Turbo is a must for the build as well. I understand that these motors can do 250 without but I know exactly what I'm looking for, just looking for some tips to get the ball rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleaidestar Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Well they don't just sell turbo motors, do you want to build a destroyed motor? I guess I'm not understanding what you want to do...mixing and matching internals would be somewhat backwards, iirc that you spent time building honda motors as have I. Most of the ej blocks are already the same as they are in hondas b18c-a1 poor mans type r, the differences lie In the application of turbos to the motors. The ej251 is the closest block of that era of n/a motors to the and 257, just not near strong enough to take that abuse without ems or a very thorough tune. All I'm saying is to get a proper base to build on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankdeluxe Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 Well they don't just sell turbo motors, do you want to build a destroyed motor? I guess I'm not understanding what you want to do...mixing and matching internals would be somewhat backwards, iirc that you spent time building honda motors as have I. Most of the ej blocks are already the same as they are in hondas b18c-a1 poor mans type r, the differences lie In the application of turbos to the motors. The ej251 is the closest block of that era of n/a motors to the and 257, just not near strong enough to take that abuse without ems or a very thorough tune. All I'm saying is to get a proper base to build on. Looking at this motor here. http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/pts/3800554030.html Then starting from the bottom, new pistons, rings, rods, crankshaft and sleeves. Lower the compression to 8.5:1 or somewhere in that range. No idea whatsoever on the top end yet. Like I said, I'm trying to get an idea on the entire build still and figuring out what is going to work on my application. However, I'm not opposed to the japanese tiger route if that would be the smarter option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zues Marine Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 if youre talking about turboing a n/a motor vs. just swapping in a turbo one.... swap in the turbo one ive also bought a motor from tigerjapanese , they're aighhhttt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankdeluxe Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 if youre talking about turboing a n/a motor vs. just swapping in a turbo one.... swap in the turbo one ive also bought a motor from japanese tiger, they're aighhhttt I am talking about turboing a N/A but doing it the right way. Not just slapping on a turbo and tapping for a oil line and boosting the hell out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zues Marine Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 i think you should find a 22t block, in a large generalization, from what ive witnessed over the years, capable mechanics have more or less never gotten their boosted n/a motors and components to run as well or reliably as its counterpart not to discourage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankdeluxe Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 i think you should find a 22t block, in a large generalization, from what ive witnessed over the years, capable mechanics have more or less never gotten their boosted n/a motors and components to run as well or reliably as its counterpart not to discourage Near impossible to find here. I have looked. That was my original game plan. But I do also know that if I dont just go 2.5 now i'm going to regret it down the road and end up spending more money trying to go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 NO NO NO NO NO Any EJ25D or 251 is a terrible route for a turbo build.. Why? They are open deck. That is cause for cooling and boost issues. It just can't handle anywhere near enough boost to reliably put out 250 WHP. They are over priced POS motors. I can go into an in depth explanation of the NA 2.5 and 2.2 and the WRX EJ205, and their capabilities if you'd like. Which leads me to my next question.. If money isn't too much of an object, and you REALLY REALLY want a 2.5, why not start off with a 255 or 257? Because you should. For the swap you'll need a wiring harness, ECU, crossmember, exhaust, etc. from a turbo car. You'll then need to have the Legacy and whatever turbo car harness you have, merged. iWire does it for $600 something to $700 something depending on the application. There's more to the whole thing, but that's a basic gist of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Kenny's right. Boosting a 25D is a bad idea. You can find 257 block halves on NASIOC every day of the week it seems. I know this isn't what you want to do, but you can buy a brand new 257 shortblock on ebay for $1800 which come stock with forged rods, heat treated crank and pistons. The pistons are the weak point but even so the stock block can push 400 with a proper tune and supporting mods. If you were considering 22t as a base, there is also one for sale on NASIOC at the moment for around $500. If you were thinking about using a 22t, then you should consider using a 22e. Phase two would be ideal as it can fit the STi crank with the proper thrust location. Phase one would also,work and give you plenty of power as the phase one cranks are very strong. A 22e shortblock can be had for $50-100, have thick cylinder walls, handle plenty of boost. Yes it is open deck as well, but plenty of people have built them with forged internals and swapped them into their WRXs for a very nice upgrade. For heads and em I would suggest a 205 heads as they are easier and cheaper to find and can be run with a wrx ecu once it is merged to your current harness. Wrx harnesses are also fairly easy to find. The only trouble with 205 heads is they often have hairline cracks around the spark plug holes. If they aren't too bad they can still be used but they make me nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zues Marine Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 provide link to $500 22t! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 22t case halves for sale: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2498183 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zues Marine Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 well, i just sold a 100% complete 22t for $500 not even a month ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 You'll regret it someday! Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 As I have said before, I'm new to Subaru but not to building cars in general so I'm not a complete dummy when it comes to building/maintaining/replacing things. I currently trying to get a build list together for a ej25 that I'm planning on swapping into my car. To give everyone a low down, I have a 2.2l with a 5mt in a 97 wagon right now. I was tossing around the idea of building a 2.2 hybrid with a 2.0 turbo top end on it but decided that if I'm going to be putting money into a motor I might as well get the one I have wanted in a Subaru since the first time I drove one. My plan is to get a 2.5 off craigs or at the junkyard and tear it all the way down and rebuild it the way I want. I would ideally like to put about 250 at the wheels and I want to make sure I do it the right way so that I can still have a reliable motor at the end of the day. This car is a DD and the 2.2 will be staying in the car while I build the new motor so I can still drive it while I tinker on other things. The real question I have is what is the best way to go about getting 250whp out of this thing while still keeping it as reliable as possible with a turbo. I have been looking at forged everything for the bottom end but I'm not sure if I need to be spending all that extra money if I'm not trying to push the motor to the max. Also what is the ideal compression ratio that I should be looking at when I put in new pistons. Just trying to compile a good build list so I can have an idea on my total costs. And is there a 2.5 that will be easier then others to put in my car/wire/do ECU stuff over another. Any help is appreciated and I'm sorry if a question like this has been asked in the past. (searched a bit but didn't come up with as much as I thought I would) http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/blankdeluxe/KGrHqNoUFDCIENIZwBQ4Gb8Mm60_12_zps99364e41.jpg You have many options but I am just going to suggest 2. 25D/22E/22T/222 hybrid: Involves putting 97-99 EJ25D heads on the EJ22E, EJ222, or EJ22T block (this one is ideal for big power). The 25D electronics will run the 22E just fine (I have an N/A hybrid & it runs well). You will obviously need to have the supporting electronics for the turbo build but it can be done & has been done before. 205/22E/22T/222 hybrid: Involves using the EJ205 heads/wiring harness/intake manifold/crank gear on any EJ22 block. This is the preferred route since you can tune the WRX ECU by COBB AccessPort instead of dealing with soldering in an aftermarket ECU (although you can if you want). If you swap the internals of the block to those which can withstand increased pressure, then you will end up with a monster that will last as long as you treat it good. I say stay away from the EJ25D as a whole for the same reasons the first Kenny has mentioned & the fact that the 48mm rods don't really like pressure as opposed to the 52mm rods of the EJ22 & Phase 2 EJ25. Btw, there is nothing wrong with using an open deck block for turbocharging as they are quicker to cool down than the closed decks. Just don't use the stock internals as they won't withstand very high levels of boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankdeluxe Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 You have many options but I am just going to suggest 2. 25D/22E/22T/222 hybrid: Involves putting 97-99 EJ25D heads on the EJ22E, EJ222, or EJ22T block (this one is ideal for big power). The 25D electronics will run the 22E just fine (I have an N/A hybrid & it runs well). You will obviously need to have the supporting electronics for the turbo build but it can be done & has been done before. 205/22E/22T/222 hybrid: Involves using the EJ205 heads/wiring harness/intake manifold/crank gear on any EJ22 block. This is the preferred route since you can tune the WRX ECU by COBB AccessPort instead of dealing with soldering in an aftermarket ECU (although you can if you want). If you swap the internals of the block to those which can withstand increased pressure, then you will end up with a monster that will last as long as you treat it good. I say stay away from the EJ25D as a whole for the same reasons the first Kenny has mentioned & the fact that the 48mm rods don't really like pressure as opposed to the 52mm rods of the EJ22 & Phase 2 EJ25. Btw, there is nothing wrong with using an open deck block for turbocharging as they are quicker to cool down than the closed decks. Just don't use the stock internals as they won't withstand very high levels of boost. Thank is the exact information that I was looking for. Thank you for all of that. Do you know by chance what kind of power I could be putting down with a hybrid build like that? Just a ballpark figure so I know what would be better for my application. Thanks again for the help and advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Thank is the exact information that I was looking for. Thank you for all of that. Do you know by chance what kind of power I could be putting down with a hybrid build like that? Just a ballpark figure so I know what would be better for my application. Thanks again for the help and advice Well, untuned with 25D heads on an EJ22E block & WRX hardware, you're looking at about 160awhp & 200ft-lbs. the BHP is the same as the 205 but the TQ is raised by about 50-60ft-lbs, thanks to the 20% displacement increase from the 205. With port & polishing, cams, forged internals, injectors, etc, you're looking at whatever you want the engine to produce within a general 500bhp limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleaidestar Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 DOHC i wish you had experience with ej18/22e/222 hybrids so I could pick your brain...I want to do that build so bad but it will be trial and error for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 I'm building a 22T/205 hybrid w/forged internals. I'm hoping to get around 280 with a conservative tune and a VF39 for the turbo. It's a slow process though as I am still collecting parts and saving $$$. Also I want to have all of my suspension and braking mods done before I drop the motor in. I got the 22T for free. Otherwise I would go with a 257 sb. But it's going to be a pretty cool build. I love the 22Ts. Here is a really good read posted by Fujik over on NASIOC that explains hybrid build options: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2141800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 DOHC i wish you had experience with ej18/22e/222 hybrids so I could pick your brain...I want to do that build so bad but it will be trial and error for me. Well, I'll tell you right now that the 222 has the highest compression pistons out of all of them. Ask anyone who has ever built a SOHC high compression engine. They'll be able to tell you everything you need to know. I only mess w/DOHC heads! Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleaidestar Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Yeah I know, I wouldn't mind doing a high compression dual cam build too, that would be for my sedan though. I want to build a small screamer for my wagon, rev it like a rotary engine to like 8.5 redline. Shit I feel like I'm threadjacking blankdeluxe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 I'm building a 22T/205 hybrid w/forged internals. I'm hoping to get around 280 with a conservative tune and a VF39 for the turbo. It's a slow process though as I am still collecting parts and saving $$$. Also I want to have all of my suspension and braking mods done before I drop the motor in. I got the 22T for free. Otherwise I would go with a 257 sb. But it's going to be a pretty cool build. I love the 22Ts. Here is a really good read posted by Fujik over on NASIOC that explains hybrid build options: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2141800 We will be twins lol. I am planning to join the 450+ club tho lol -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zues Marine Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 I am planning to join the 450+ club tho lol shuddup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 shuddup Fine I will go hide back in my hole and work on my car -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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