-Samurai- Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Ok well heres the video I was going to post wondering if the engine sounds right at idle. Like I said only noticeable thing while driving is a bit of a shudder upon accelerating after stopping every once in awhile and seems to shake some at idle. Other than that seems to run and drive fine, and hits boost without any problems. Also no odd noises from the turbo either. I just want my car back to good health! [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9U3EK0GLdg]2005 Subaru Legacy P0021 Code - YouTube[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon OBXT Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Sounds normal to me. The injector click is pretty loud, but I think that's normal for these engines. Regarding the 'shudder'... is there any chance that one of the hoses came off or got cracked when doing the OCV? Symptom sounds like it might be a vacuum leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 those aren't injector noises, its valve ticking, which is normal. i don't know what that hollow wo-wo-wo-wo is, might be the camera audio or something. if the AVCS is not working properly, you will get a hesitation.... because the reason for avcs to change the point in which the intake valve opens in relation to the piston. i'd check your banjo bolt filter ASAP. there might be a little oil getting to the avcs and the turbo, might just not be enough for the avcs to work right and the turbo is hanging on for dear life. and vacuum leaks don't cause avcs codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon OBXT Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Are you sure on the valve noise? When I first got the car I tried to find the source and using the long screwdriver method it's loudest from the top of the injector solenoid. Suppose it could be the cam lobe slapping the bucket but this should soften with temp and mine doesn't. Further, it's a 1:1 harmonic per rev and I'd expect to hear 2x the rate if valves. Although I guess it could just be inlet since its more audible on the top side. Anyway, the stumble was post OCV repair so I'm assuming its not ACVS related; it it were there'd be a recurring code thrown post repair. The code isn't from blockage it's from expected position not matching commanded position. So I'd think a valve advance related stumble would also be code worthy. I'm an anti-banjo filter guy so I agree, however his code was for DS ACVS, no? Turbo could definitely be starving for oil, but not necessarily related to the current situ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 p0021 is DRIVERS side. p0011 is passenger side, just remembered this, lol. some valves wear more than others, so its possible only one or more valves make noise and others not, so frequency may not be what you'd expect. i didn't listen that carefully, maybe it is the injectors. my valves are set loose and make the same noise, but i do have dw 850's too either way, ticking in subarus engines is normal. knocking noises are not. he said he replaced the solenoid and still has the code after the ecu was reset. thus it's still an active issue and fault and needs to be tended to. the code is p0021, which is cam OVER-advance than what it wants. less oil to the sprocket means advance, which could mean the solenoid is not moving or the solenoid has no oil supply to deliver to the sprocket. At idle, the ecu commands something like 10% duty cycle for the solenoid, which means oil does get into the cam sprocket to keep the cam "floating" between advance and retard at idle, if the ecu does not confirm 0* advance(which is what idle, and off-throttle should be) via the cam sensor, it will throw a code because the cam sprocket will not have enough oil thus be in an advance state(less oil). this is why this code is so common with clogged banjos, less oil delivery to the solenoid, the less it has to use to float the cam to the appropriate advance degree. the stumbling, who knows, i mean a vac leak is never out of the question, but i have my money on this code(still on) contributing to the issue. now as long as the new solenoid works fine, what you could do is switch solenoids with the pass side since you know that one works fine, if the code ends up on the pass side, then u know the new sol doesn't work. the only other thing that will cause this code, besides a bad solenoid, is skipped timing, or oil starvation to the solenoid(banjo bolt issue). if you research more about this code, some of them experienced a timing skip. and YES, you CAN skip a(one) tooth on the cam sprocket and NOT cause damage in this interference engine and usually the only noticable thing is stumbling and a code. the ecu will typically throw this code in that instance. this will also cause drivability issues. the drivers side timing cover isnt difficult to remove, just look at the intake and exhaust cam and line the | marks up on the sprocket in the 2 places like mentioned in the DIY writeups on this forum, if they wont line up with each other, then it skipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted December 31, 2012 Author Share Posted December 31, 2012 Sounds normal to me. The injector click is pretty loud, but I think that's normal for these engines. Regarding the 'shudder'... is there any chance that one of the hoses came off or got cracked when doing the OCV? Symptom sounds like it might be a vacuum leak. Yeah thats what I have read, that these engines do click pretty loud. I dont believe there is a vacuum leak from the OCV install because this problem was before that, I just replaced it thinking that may have been the problem. those aren't injector noises, its valve ticking, which is normal. i don't know what that hollow wo-wo-wo-wo is, might be the camera audio or something. if the AVCS is not working properly, you will get a hesitation.... because the reason for avcs to change the point in which the intake valve opens in relation to the piston. i'd check your banjo bolt filter ASAP. there might be a little oil getting to the avcs and the turbo, might just not be enough for the avcs to work right and the turbo is hanging on for dear life. and vacuum leaks don't cause avcs codes. That could be the problem, but the dealer did pull off the oil lines for the drivers side that the code is thrown for, P0011 would be the passenger side and turbo side. Thats just what makes me think the turbo will be fine. I wish I had a heated garage to take the banjo filters out but I just dont have the time either. I have 2 jobs and I dont want to pay the dealer the 750$ quote they gave me to remove it (which is a rip off, as it does not take that much work). I'll have to wait till it gets a little warmer out. Its on average 10 degrees in WI right now not including windchill. No garage available I'm starting to think it has something to do with the timing belt, OR that other sensor people were mentioning at the back side of the head? I dont remember what it was called Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 the sensor on the back of the head topside is the cam pos sensor, if it was bad it would throw it's own code so i highly doubt that's it at this point. assuming the dealer replaced the drivers side ocv with a new one(lets hope so), the next thing i'd do is double check the timing marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted December 31, 2012 Author Share Posted December 31, 2012 the sensor on the back of the head topside is the cam pos sensor, if it was bad it would throw it's own code so i highly doubt that's it at this point. assuming the dealer replaced the drivers side ocv with a new one(lets hope so), the next thing i'd do is double check the timing marks. I had replaced the sensor myself seeing how most of the time this code is thrown its that sensor, but I was wrong and wasted my money. I just dont see how the timing marks could be off if it runs fine "most of the time". If any of the teeth were off you'd thing is would run like crap all the time. Im so confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 We're giving you suggestions of possible culprits based on experience. If you're not willing to take advice, based on experience, then why even post this thread. It's winter, yes it's cold, do you want to fix it or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 We're giving you suggestions of possible culprits based on experience. If you're not willing to take advice, based on experience, then why even post this thread. It's winter, yes it's cold, do you want to fix it or not? When did I not take your advice...If your saying I should rip apart the whole front of the engine to check the timing marks then yeah I cant because I have 2 jobs, and a 2 year old to watch sometimes. I dont have time to do it as I explained before. Im trying to gather possibilities and trying the easier things first then having the shop check the rest. Cant afford to not have a vehicle if i were to take it apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The timing cover is not "ripping apart whole front of the engine". it's 4 10mm bolts that can be removed with hand tools. and boom, both cam sprockets are in your face. again, your lack of even curiosity(and ignorance in thinking I'm asking you to pull your engine apart to the point of undrivable) on doing this leads me to believe you don't want to do it yourself and want someone to do it for you. we could have saved a lot of time from the get go if you said you can't do these things yourself. Then it would've been "take it to a subaru shop" in the first few replies. suggestions were made, now it's your turn to make the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 My trusted local mechanic charged me $110 to remove the banjo filter and clean a few other things when my wagon had the P0011 and P0021 codes. He told me to start looking for a turbo. I replaced it 1000 miles later. Find a local mechanic they will take better care of you then a dealership, that would rather not have your car sitting around there place when they are trying to sell people new subaru's. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 If you have a laptop, download some free software and take logs of the OCV position. A bad one will look like this 24-07-2008 A good one will look like this 02-08-2008 You can read a full thread on OCV's here :http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/help-p0021-intake-camshaft-position-timing-over-advanced-18887.html?highlight=ocvecuExplorer 24-07-2008 21h25m19s.pdfecuExplorer 02-08-2008 22h27m17s.pdf Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 The timing cover is not "ripping apart whole front of the engine". it's 4 10mm bolts that can be removed with hand tools. and boom, both cam sprockets are in your face. again, your lack of even curiosity(and ignorance in thinking I'm asking you to pull your engine apart to the point of undrivable) on doing this leads me to believe you don't want to do it yourself and want someone to do it for you. we could have saved a lot of time from the get go if you said you can't do these things yourself. Then it would've been "take it to a subaru shop" in the first few replies. suggestions were made, now it's your turn to make the move. Theres 4 cam sprockets, not 2. Now onto my other replies that are more helpful than telling me im a retard. My trusted local mechanic charged me $110 to remove the banjo filter and clean a few other things when my wagon had the P0011 and P0021 codes. He told me to start looking for a turbo. I replaced it 1000 miles later. Find a local mechanic they will take better care of you then a dealership, that would rather not have your car sitting around there place when they are trying to sell people new subaru's. Very good point. I do have another shop that I do prefer over the dealer. THey did the belt on my SC400 last year and did a great job. Probably would have cost me twice as much and I would be charged for a rental. When I got a much newer car as a rental for free. I can probably do the banjo filter on the drivers side as I heard there is one on that side, myself. Im not so sure about the other one. I read people were having trouble putting stuff back together. Thats wierd that yours threw both codes at the same time. Maybe just in time I will have both but just one as of right now. I should probably check the turbo bearing for any movement just in case. I wont be so worried if its still snug and spins freely. If you have a laptop, download some free software and take logs of the OCV position. A bad one will look like this 24-07-2008 A good one will look like this 02-08-2008 You can read a full thread on OCV's here :http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/help-p0021-intake-camshaft-position-timing-over-advanced-18887.html?highlight=ocv This is interesting. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Last I checked, your code was for drivers side, which means, 2 cam sprockets you have to deal with. Secondly, subaru designed the timing cover in three pieces so that you can remove either side individually with surprising ease in order to inspect the belt for wear. Each side has 4 10mm bolts that are torqued to 10ft-lbs. Anyway, read up on that link. Let know what on the checklist hasn't already been tended to. What Byron speaks of is metal shavings and debris from the shot turbo in the oil thus clogging the banjos, but you said yours was already cleaned. Banjo bolt on the top of the avcs solenoid on the drivers side is suppose to have a filter, you could check it again. But metal debris in the oil would also be an indication if the turbo is continually shedding material into your oil. There is another banjo bolt for the drivers avcs oil supply line but it's behind the timing cover attached to the head. The reason he threw both code simultaneously was because his entire oil system was contaminated with debris thus all filters were clogged equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermTheElf Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 When I had the p0021 code it was my passenger side oil valve. It fell apart in my hands when I removed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Last I checked, your code was for drivers side, which means, 2 cam sprockets you have to deal with. Secondly, subaru designed the timing cover in three pieces so that you can remove either side individually with surprising ease in order to inspect the belt for wear. Each side has 4 10mm bolts that are torqued to 10ft-lbs. Anyway, read up on that link. Let know what on the checklist hasn't already been tended to. What Byron speaks of is metal shavings and debris from the shot turbo in the oil thus clogging the banjos, but you said yours was already cleaned. Banjo bolt on the top of the avcs solenoid on the drivers side is suppose to have a filter, you could check it again. But metal debris in the oil would also be an indication if the turbo is continually shedding material into your oil. There is another banjo bolt for the drivers avcs oil supply line but it's behind the timing cover attached to the head. The reason he threw both code simultaneously was because his entire oil system was contaminated with debris thus all filters were clogged equally. Thank you, this is info I need man lol. But yeah, no metal debris in the oil. Turbo sounds/boosts normally. I should check it anyways since I've never inspected it since I bought the car a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 it sounds like, based on symptoms, it's limited to the ocv function being your issue. unless you have some weird turbo noises like marble in a tin can or metal flakes in your oil, I'd focus on the ocv and it's function. opposedforces.com for schematic views of the parts and systems in your car. you can see the oil lines and what feeds what under the engine section (click browse to the right of "Engine") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 it sounds like, based on symptoms, it's limited to the ocv function being your issue. unless you have some weird turbo noises like marble in a tin can or metal flakes in your oil, I'd focus on the ocv and it's function. opposedforces.com for schematic views of the parts and systems in your car. you can see the oil lines and what feeds what under the engine section (click browse to the right of "Engine") Alright I'll check this out. You'd think replacing the OCV and checking the oil lines to it for any sludge buildup would find the problem but it was neither of those. Uhg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermTheElf Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Did you check the passenger side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Samurai- Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 Did you check the passenger side? The code is for the drivers side "P0021 Bank 2" Thats why I know its not the passenger side. It would throw P0011 for the passenger side and I would be a lot more worried that I'd blow the turbo lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermTheElf Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 When I had the p0021 code it was my passenger side oil valve. It fell apart in my hands when I removed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 since there's conflicting info on the internet when searching solutions for 0021, might as well swap out ocv's pass and drivers. see if the code follows. lol. PITA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 The code is for the drivers side "P0021 Bank 2" Thats why I know its not the passenger side. It would throw P0011 for the passenger side and I would be a lot more worried that I'd blow the turbo lol I could be wrong but, isn't bank 1 the passenger side, that is where #1 cylinder resides. It's also where the P0011 code comes from when the turbo is starved for oil. May be we should ask m sprank for the correct info. ripemeat, I did see your oil flow picture in the other thread earlier today. May be that would help here ? 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 http://www.bescaredracing.com/sti/turbo/oil_feed/oil_flow.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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