Personal Legacy Comparo

[B4_Maniac]

Spent some serious time in my 2005 Legacy GT Limeted this weeked.

 

Me and my running buddies tested 0-60 acceleration, handeling and build quality compared to some other popular cars, modified and stock.

 

The general consensus with the Legacy is that it is a awsome car for its price range and kills the competition in this space. We also feel with attention to the suspension and the tires Subaru could have a serious sports sedan on its hands.

 

As of now, with the current stock rubber and suspension it has not reached its full potential but the makeings for a world class perfomer are here. It has the equipment, it just needs the love and affection of some great tuners.

[SUBE555]

Looks like you and your buds have a very nice group of cars to run with. :) I agree that the Legacy is on the virge, I think even a lot of those competence parts are in the FHI parts bin. Just gotta run in and get them. Easier said than done of course, but they are there.

[B4_Maniac]

Thanks Sube..Also if you look closely at the pics.. we were actuly running the radio contoled versions also :)

[Th3Franz]

That looks like fun. :D

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='Th3Franz']That looks like fun. :D[/quote] Yeah and the nitro used in the fuel gives you a great buzz! :twisted:

[RSPDiver]

So, how'd she fare against some of the other cars in your comparos? Did you G-Tech it, or anything?

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='RSPDiver']So, how'd she fare against some of the other cars in your comparos? Did you G-Tech it, or anything?[/quote], Nope, not at all. We used what is most important to us. Real word driveing impressions and butt dynos. Basicly and with no more thought than how does the car feel and perform to the real world everyday driver. When you get into numbers..you get into so many diffrent variables and what ifs.. But how does the car feel..as is..right now..and compared to other cars. So based on that impression, we feel that the car has plenty in the power dept, no lack of torque in this puppy. But, the stearing doesn't feel as persise as compared to a Mazdaspeed Miata or EVO or even a Z or RX8 or to a G35..and that comes from lack of attenstion to the bits that communicate road feel to the driver. All of these other cars come with the proper suspensions for and strut braceings to accomidate their size..power and communication to the driver. The Legacy doesn't. The Legacy has a amazeing engine..comfortaple suspension and suffficant breaks. Ventalated front and rear.. The same set up as the RX8..12 inch front rotars and 11 in the back. But, they don't bite as quick or as hard as the RX8's Bosch (sp) breaks or the G35's brembos. But, they get the job done, and don't fade on hard breaking. It would be nice to see upgraded lines..or a better packaged for auto-xing but for day to day driving and the occasional panic stop...you are in good hands. It all boils down to is that Subaru put out a car that would crush the competion at its price point. It also gave its aftermarket shops such as STI and SPT to shine and make some money on parts that it left intentionaly desireing for upgrades. Now for people that have limeted budgets such as myslef need real people to tell us where to put our cash. This one owner will put it in the areas that will make the car handle the way it should.

[gtguy]

[quote name='B4_Maniac']When you get into numbers..you get into so many diffrent variables and what ifs.. But how does the car feel..as is..right now..and compared to other cars. So based on that impression, we feel that the car has plenty in the power dept, no lack of torque in this puppy. But, the stearing doesn't feel as persise as compared to a Mazdaspeed Miata or EVO or even a Z or RX8 or to a G35..and that comes from lack of attenstion to the bits that communicate road feel to the driver. All of these other cars come with the proper suspensions for and strut braceings to accomidate their size..power and communication to the driver. The Legacy doesn't. The Legacy has a amazeing engine..comfortaple suspension and suffficant breaks. Ventalated front and rear.. The same set up as the RX8..12 inch front rotars and 11 in the back. But, they don't bite as quick or as hard as the RX8's Bosch (sp) breaks or the G35's brembos. But, they get the job done, and don't fade on hard breaking. It would be nice to see upgraded lines..or a better packaged for auto-xing but for day to day driving and the occasional panic stop...you are in good hands. Now for people that have limeted budgets such as myslef need real people to tell us where to put our cash. This one owner will put it in the areas that will make the car handle the way it should.[/quote] Permit me some quibbles. First off, you're right about the numbers thing. It's too driver-dependent to be at all reliable. One guy's 6.2 is another guy's 5.8 is another guy's 5.5. The same with braking distance. Think about this: a second's less reaction time adds a significant distance to a car's braking number. 'Nuff said. Now, as far as steering feel, think about the cars you're comparing the Legacy to: Mazdaspeed Miata, 350Z, EVO, RX8. That's some pretty fast company. Steering feel changes significantly with the addition of tires. I can't tell you how much the steering feel improved on my GT wagon with the Dunlop 9000s on it. More weight and precision. Suddenly, the tires are working with, and communicating what they're doing to the driver. The aforementioned cars are also for different purposes, which explains the suspension differences. A Legacy GT isn't supposed to have the same suspension as a 350Z or an EVO. I wouldn't have considered one if it had. Ditto for 95% of real-world Legacy GT purchasers. Those suspensions are too hard, and too jittery. Same for the Miata. Even the RX8 isn't a compliance champion. The Legacy GT is precisely that, a mass-market GT. If Subaru puts on the stuff, stock, that people are grousing that the car doesn't have, real people, the ones who drive the market, won't buy it. Oh, the GT doesn't need any additional bracing because of the suspension setup, moved to the outer edges of the car, and the front end's close proximity to the firewall. A strut brace only helps a car that isn't that stiff to begin with. Few contemporary cars today are insufficiently stiff where you'd notice the absence or addition of a strut tower brace. The GT's suspension isn't just comfortable, it's also firm yet comfortable, a neat trick that is usually only accomplished by the Germans. The GT handles better than I think most people realize. You just have to understand what it's doing, which the stock rubber doesn't allow, without question. Don't worry about the GT's brakes. You will never fade them, and it's difficult to tell how a car's brakes are compared to another, unless you put the same pads on both cars. Stainless lines are a feel mod, that do nothing to augment braking performance. Here is what I would do, if I were the average person buying a Legacy GT: Buy new tires Take a performance driving class Done. :lol: Please don't think I'm flaming or anything, B4, I just think that the Legacy GT is a misunderstood car, that will suffer by comparison to the sports cars that it can run with, rather than being compared to cars it is competing with in the market. Drive a Honda Accord, BMW325ix or Audi A4, and the Legacy GT would come out significantly different in that comparison. Kevin

[PPower]

Of the cars you had on hand, it seems like the G35 would be the closest comparison, especially if it were the non-Brembo-ed sedan. It is interesting though that the Legacy does or can hit at the price points of your competing cars depending on Ltd or not/sedan or wagon. Please note that a car has brakes to stop the car unless they break which will cause you to crash.

[B4_Maniac]

Flame? No, its all good. This is a discusions and all information and opinions are welcome. What good is a forum if you can't share information and opinions? So don't sweat it..and let it be known I am far from a car expert. But, I have been following the Legacy for the better part of 8 years now and I have always felt that America has gotten the shaft when it comes to this car. So, I am always comparing the U.S spec to the JDM and looking at reasons why we can't get the same type of treatment. So that being said, the Legacy in the American market is a mis-understood car. As you have pointed out. But, us as enthusiest know that this car has great performance potential and in Japan its tuned to tap into this more than our model is. To me it has always befuddled me why our market always gets screwed on the good stuff. But in recent years we have been getting the good stuff. The EVO..the RX8 the STI the G35 the Z..all have been either American replicas of their Japanese counter parts or just slightly off, even better in the case of the STI. But, I compare these cars to the Legacy becuase those are the circles that it runs in Japan. Yes, I am being a little extreem in my comparison, but I know for a fact that this car has more potential then what is being displayed here, and that potential properly exploited could have "Ohhs and Ahhs" coming from every car enthusiast. And when a car enthusiest drives the Legacy..the eunthuisiast will praise its strengths and call out its weakneses and its suspension and handeling will be on the top of that list. Before I put a dollar more into mods into my car, I wanted to know what would be the best direction. I wanted to spend time with the stock vehical and feel out its parts..its ballence, what would I like changed. And belive it or not the only two things I would do..is stiffen up the suspension and swap the tires. I agree with the strut tower brace..that is not a imidiate concern. But, all I am saying is this car has huge potential. I would just like the world to see it and embrace it.

[MtnSub]

B4, enjoyed your comparo and your pics, thanks. I hope Suby offers HP or Sport pack that can be added to the base GT or GT/Ltd for the 10% of Leg market that wants that. Question is, do you think Suby could put together a kit that B4 types would buy or is it the nature of the beast to take the Pallet and create your personal masterpiece? Regardless, guys like you are going establish this cars reputation and the mass market is going to buy into the buzz you create, but write a check for the std GT.

[gtguy]

What Subaru will almost certainly do is offer a slightly reined-in, but similar list of options to the WRX. You'll eventually (speculation, mind you) be able to add struts and springs, probably an upsized rear bar and an exhaust to the car. Subaru will almost certainly shy away from anything that is a potential liability risk, such as stainless brake lines (can't have poor install procedures leading to failure now, can we), beefier clutches, etc. I can see them offering wheels, as well. The rest will be dress-up stuff, like strut tower bars, sill plates and the like. Vendors, however, will make the fuller range of STi-branded parts available. BTW, call me a homer, but STi stainless lines are, for example, the only stainless lines I would consider for the Legacy. Perfect fit, and you know the pedigree. But I admit that somehow, I feel like experimenting less with the GT than I did with the WRX. FWIW, B4, I don't think this market is getting screwed on the good stuff. Remember that we get the 2.5 motor, where Japan doesn't. Also remember that Americans drive a lot more than drivers do in Japan. A suspension that is tolerable for weekend fooling around, might drive you crazy on your daily drive to work. Roads here are bumpier, as well. The Legacy GT is an extraordinary car, one that is already too good for a great majority of drivers who will purchase it. It's even better than I am, I admit. :lol: My late-night driving tests have me chickening out before the car gives it up in a corner. Kevin

[UrQ]

This was a great review! Why not compare the GT to more sporting cars and set them as the benchmark? The fact that it comes close to performing as well as they do speaks volumes for how well Subaru is doing with their performance direction. I've read posts that several of you, like me, are looking for something more upmarket than the WRX we're trading in, a great handler, and price that didn't mean we had to buy a new 540. If I wanted a coupe, or rwd, or a 2+2 seater only, then these other cars would be a natural choice. How great is it that the GT can even run with them! This review suggests that the GT hits the bullseye! Thanks for sharing.

[gtguy]

[quote name='UrQ']This was a great review! Why not compare the GT to more sporting cars and set them as the benchmark?[/quote] Because the GT will come up short every time. It's like comparing a Ferrari 360 Modena to an Outback for cargo capacity. Sure, the Outback will win, but they have improved the cargo capacity of the 360 Modena, so why not set the Outback as the benchmark, and hope that Ferrari is listening. See what I mean? It's an unfair comparison. It's great that the Legacy is a performer, but to say it has an "inferior" suspension to an EVO or 350Z falls into the "duh" category. You can ask more of your car, without asking it to live up to standards set by something that it isn't, is all that I'm saying. I hope it makes sense. :lol: Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='MtnSub']B4, enjoyed your comparo and your pics, thanks. I hope Suby offers HP or Sport pack that can be added to the base GT or GT/Ltd for the 10% of Leg market that wants that. Question is, do you think Suby could put together a kit that B4 types would buy or is it the nature of the beast to take the Pallet and create your personal masterpiece? Regardless, guys like you are going establish this cars reputation and the mass market is going to buy into the buzz you create, but write a check for the std GT.[/quote] MTN Sub, you have it it right on the head. I think they will do a little of both. I know that SPT is working on parts right now but I am also putting together some assumptions of my own. Before I get into that..I have one poit I want to make to GT GUY. Kev, we have been on this topic all day, and its been great, but the connection that you are not makeing is that 1) Why couldn't the U.S GT come with the SAME Bilstien struts and shocks and the SAME tires as the JDM model? The JDM Bilstiens are not all that stiff. We got a better car except for those two areas. (Nav system be damned..sorry guys) 2) And I said it before, the reason I group this car in with the others is because in Japan, thats the level of performance that this car is on. Plain and simple. In Japan the JDM Legacy is a competitor for vehicals such as these. Of course some are more performance orientated then the Legacy. But the B4 Legacy has NEVER been as slouch in Japan. Thats why I love it, it combines performance with practicality and beuty. With out sacrificeing either aspect. With the USDM modle I feel that we are missing out slightly in the performance catagory and the remedy is simple. I think they reason we missed out on the Bilstiens is becuase SOA already has a contract with KYB for struts and springs, and it would have been too expensive to put the Bilstiens in the USDM Legacy so the nixed them for our model. SOA should have takend into consideration that there are enthusiest like us that would have gladly payed the cost for those shocks, and I would have the car of my dreams in my garrage. Now, I just have to build it myslef. Hence my name B4_Maniac

[gtguy]

[quote name='B4_Maniac']Kev, we have been on this topic all day, and its been great, but the connection that you are not makeing is that 1) Why couldn't the U.S GT come with the SAME Bilstien struts and shocks and the SAME tires as the JDM model? The JDM Bilstiens are not all that stiff. We got a better car except for those two areas. (Nav system be damned..sorry guys) 2) And I said it before, the reason I group this car in with the others is because in Japan, thats the level of performance that this car is on. Plain and simple. In Japan the JDM Legacy is a competitor for vehicals such as these. Of course some are more performance orientated then the Legacy. But the B4 Legacy has NEVER been as slouch in Japan. Thats why I love it, it combines performance with practicality and beuty. With out sacrificeing either aspect. With the USDM modle I feel that we are missing out slightly in the performance catagory and the remedy is simple. I think they reason we missed out on the Bilstiens is becuase SOA already has a contract with KYB for struts and springs, and it would have been too expensive to put the Bilstiens in the USDM Legacy so the nixed them for our model. SOA should have takend into consideration that there are enthusiest like us that would have gladly payed the cost for those shocks, and I would have the car of my dreams in my garrage. Now, I just have to build it myslef. Hence my name B4_Maniac[/quote] We don't know how stiff the Bilsteins are, or how compatible with USDM roads (not as smooth as most JDM roads) they are. Until we know, we won't know. SOA has never been into dealing with enthusiasts, particularly with their bread and butter car, the Legacy/Outback. Sure, they gave it more power and all that, but why go farther? Of what value is it to them, is the question you have to ask yourself. Nor do we know if in fact KYB is the USDM strut/spring manufacturer, unless someone knows something that I don't. The point I am trying to make with comparing the Legacy GT to actual sports cars (irrespective of the JDM, who get their own models, tuned for the drivers there), is that it's going to lose. A hotted-up Dodge pickup accelerates faster than a Mini Cooper, but would you compare the two? Perhaps this points out a marketing problem that Subaru has. People were doing the same thing to the WRX, comparing it to everything except other things in its category. As a result, they were always finding deficiencies, instead of realizing how fabulous that car was. The GT is never, ever going to handle like a sports car. It isn't that kind of thing. On the other hand, you'll never be able to carry as much stuff in a 350Z. The car market is a world of tradeoffs. The JDM Bilsteins might be great, might be harsh, but it still won't make the GT handle with an RX-8 or 350Z, is my fundamental point. No way, no how. So to hold the GT to that standard is unfair and meaningless, at its core. Subaru of America (again, same discussion as with the WRX) isn't trying to screw anyone out of anything "good," of emasculate the USDM car. What they are trying to do is make the best Legacy GT for this market that they can. I think they've done a fabulous job, and would prefer to fete that, rather than pointing out things that, as far as this market is concerned, don't exist. The JDM is the JDM, and vice versa for the USDM. Subaru is a small car manufacturer, never forget that. They can't afford to have different specs for a car in a market that, they still aren't sure, even wants a performance Legacy. Japan is proven, tried and true, so such things are easy. Here, there are warehouses full of SPT stuff that nobody wants. Further, in this market, the Legacy is a different car. Heck, in Japan, the B4 is a different car from the GT. Let the Legacy be what it is, rather than deficient to purer sports cars. An EVO would suck as a daily driver, which a GT would be most excellent. If you have to haul something other than ass, you can't do it in a 350Z, you can in a GT sedan. It's the same reason a Ferrari 456 isn't as hard-edged as an Enzo, or even 360. Different horses for different courses. But hey, who am I kidding? I'll have about just as much effect as I had on the WRX folks, who were comparing that car to everything short of the space shuttle. "What's the 1/4-mile time on the Discovery?" :lol: Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

Kev, don't get me wrong tough guy, I see where you are coming from but what I want you to just try to understand..the LEGACY CAN HANDLE AS WELL. Thats my whole point. It has the ability with some tweeking. Just some food for thought.. What makes a EVO or STI handle well? Answer me that, and we can pick this up in the morning. :D

[SUBE555]

Well put Kevin. As for the 1/4-mile of the Discovery, that's sort of complicated? Are you talking the 1st 1/4-mile off the launch tower? I'd then have to say pretty slow, get up a number of miles it's pretty fast. You can check next time they send one up if they ever do. :mrgreen:

[SC GT]

Nice comparo. Pretty impressive for the LGT to be able to compare well to the cars that your friends run.

[nicd]

I guess I will have to slap in that BP5 B suspension ASAP and so we will be able to see what is what. I still think a good start here would be to get the actual numbers from Bilstein for the strut and coil rates on the stock JDM stuff, If we are to do this properly. I should get the low-down on the NA Spec information shortly I hope. By the way I am no grate driver but I have driven plenty of Subarus on the track, alongside the BMW club, Porsche and various others. I have a GT Wagon 5EAT, I would not be so worried If I had to take this car on serious twisties as long as I can go with my present rubber. Having said that, I do agree with Kevin about the categorie of this car. You can not go and compare it to Sports coupes that have sports and weekend track in mind. At least not for the moment :wink: This is a good discussion to be having none the less.

[gtguy]

[quote name='B4_Maniac']Kev, don't get me wrong tough guy, I see where you are coming from but what I want you to just try to understand..the LEGACY CAN HANDLE AS WELL. Thats my whole point. It has the ability with some tweeking. Just some food for thought.. What makes a EVO or STI handle well? Answer me that, and we can pick this up in the morning. :D[/quote] Many things make a car handle well: weight distribution, strut valving in context of the car's overall weight, spring rates and how those rates are thought out as regards a desired handling characteristic, steering rack, firmness of the suspension bushings, quality of the suspension links, a front LSD in the case of the STi, etc, etc. So, you can't really make two cars just as stiff and expect them to handle the same. Adding to the complexity is the fact that nothing is free. Firm up the Legacy for the body roll Nazis, and ride comfort will suffer. The trick is to try finding a balance between what you want, and what you can live with. The two are rarely compatible, long-term. The STi and EVO have very stiff suspensions, and the EVO has a staggeringly quick steering rack. But, when you hit a bump in those cars, the entire car bucks, because of the stiffer spring rates and strut valving. It's unavoidable. This is what makes them deficient as a daily driver for all except the young, supple-spined, or hardcores. And that's fine, as long as you know what you're getting into. The GT has an excellent balance of handling and compliance, which is a nice set of tires away from excellence. You can firm up the car, with Spec B Bilsteins, or a JDM GT suspension, some STi links for the rear, and a bigger swaybar. But will the car retain the silky ride quality and handling balance? Not likely. Such things are impossible. You can make a GT FEEL like an STi or EVO in terms of ride quality (or lack thereof). But without the EVO's steering rack, or the STi's front LSD, is isn't going to handle like them. We haven't even gotten into suspension bushings, and weight distribution yet... See what I mean? Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

Yup, and you touched on the the points that I wanted you to bring to the surface. The RX8 has a softer suspension then the EVO and STI but its TOKIKOs keep the car flat on turns and comfortable as a daily driver. I am looking for a suspension setting for my Legacy much like my RX8's was. The Legacy has quicker stearing then the other cars in th Subaru line up..I forgett the ratio and the suspension geometry and balance even though they don't scream sports car...are capable of performing at a much higher level then its current setting will allow. So, I am looking forward to makeing the car handle like it should and picking the proper suspension setting that would allow the sporty driveing that I like around my curves and be comfortable enough for a daily driver. I can take a stiffer suspension. No question. I am not that old..or sensory deprived that I need my spine muted from the road or my car. I am only 26 for crying out loud! :D I just can't take backing down from a turn that I know this car can take at higher speeds becuase its current equipment isn't up tp the job. The EVO would not handle as good with out its struts or spring settings..and would be scary to put the same kind out suspension that is in the Legacy in the EVO with that much power. My gripe is why did Subaru go for the full GT softy suspension and not take into consideration that it would have a customer base like me..that would like to enjoy the car's sportier aspects. B4_Maniac

[CombatCQB]

[quote name='SUBE555']Well put Kevin. As for the 1/4-mile of the Discovery, that's sort of complicated? Are you talking the 1st 1/4-mile off the launch tower? I'd then have to say pretty slow, get up a number of miles it's pretty fast. You can check next time they send one up if they ever do. :mrgreen:[/quote] :lol: It'll run faster if they rig it to go side ways instead of up. Just like if you try to make the Legacy run up a wall. :P

[gtguy]

[quote name='B4_Maniac']Yup, and you touched on the the points that I wanted you to bring to the surface. The RX8 has a softer suspension then the EVO and STI but its TOKIKOs keep the car flat on turns and comfortable as a daily driver. I am looking for a suspension setting for my Legacy much like my RX8's was. The Legacy has quicker stearing then the other cars in th Subaru line up..I forgett the ratio and the suspension geometry and balance even though they don't scream sports car...are capable of performing at a much higher level then its current setting will allow. So, I am looking forward to makeing the car handle like it should and picking the proper suspension setting that would allow the sporty driveing that I like around my curves and be comfortable enough for a daily driver. I can take a stiffer suspension. No question. I am not that old..or sensory deprived that I need my spine muted from the road or my car. I am only 26 for crying out loud! :D I just can't take backing down from a turn that I know this car can take at higher speeds becuase its current equipment isn't up tp the job. The EVO would not handle as good with out its struts or spring settings..and would be scary to put the same kind out suspension that is in the Legacy in the EVO with that much power. My gripe is why did Subaru go for the full GT softy suspension and not take into consideration that it would have a customer base like me..that would like to enjoy the car's sportier aspects. B4_Maniac[/quote] Because Subaru doesn't really care about customers such as you, because they understand that no matter what they do, you're going to say it isn't good enough. And no offense is meant by that, but modders are never, ever happy. Look at the JDM. They get the rara avis, the Spec B, and guys are pulling the suspension and selling them on Yahoo! Japan for something "better." The STi comes with an exceptional suspension, and guys are pulling it off for coilovers and whatnot. Tuners are never satisfied, because tuning never achieves perfection. Its state is a restlessness that never, ever goes away. So. Subaru ponies up bigger bucks, gives the GT a stiff, bucking bronco suspension. You tuners change it, yet the average driver goes to the Subaru dealer, pulls out of the driveway for a test drive, hits a bump and says "No way!" So Subaru sells about twelve Legacy GTs, and nobody's happy. The RX8 has different spring rates, who knows what kind of suspension geometry, and much less strut travel. I guarantee you that bumps, ruts and potholes that the GT deals with smoothly and with aplomb, the RX8 won't handle as well. That's the tradeoff. The GT has a 15:1 rack, identical to that of the STi. It steers very well, and contributes to the stock car's extraordinary handling. The GT is capable, stock, of performing at a higher level than 99% of the drivers who will own the car can handle, including me. I will never be able to extract anything approaching the stock car's full potential. I chicken out before the car gives up, and I rather like that. So, if you want to make your car into whatever you want to make it into, that's fine. But don't think that it's some sort of Subaru conspiracy to emasculate the GT. We got the best car for this country's roads and driving conditions. That car has been through racetrack testing and various floggings in the hands of some very good drivers. It is very well sorted out. Kevin

[MtnSub]

IMO, Suby does not have a mktg problem with the Leg GT and Suby's print and TV adverts are deliberately creating confusion to their advantage. What the hell did I just say or mean? Suby is comparing their sporty family wagon Leg GT to everything from a Porsche SUV to BMW 540(not 530) to a Porsche Boxter. Suby is playing up 5.8 sec 0-60 and better cornering than BMW. Suby is taking the concept they created, "cross-over" vehicle (the new hot segmet) to new heights. I think Suby wants to capture buyers that love hot SUVs or would love a sporty roadster, but really need a family wagon. This extreme deliberate image setting that Suby is spending big $ on sets the Leg GT apart from all other affordable family cars. Suby creates a fun yet safe reason to buy Suby, not others. Isn't that the mktg challenge for Suby? Maybe Suby's adverts and 0-60 in 5.8 sec. is causing comparisons with cars built for very different objectives. All that said, I still agree with gtguy about mods that may be fun or give you a look/feel you translate as performance, but a better set of tires and a skilled driver may get just as good a lap time, while still enjoying everyday driving characteristic. Sorry if I did'nt quite get gtguys message 100% correct.