jk Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 i agree about the market positioning. we've got the value, safety, family, PERFORMANCE car. there isn't anything else in that niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote name='MtnSub'] All that said, I still agree with gtguy about mods that may be fun or give you a look/feel you translate as performance, but a better set of tires and a skilled driver may get just as good a lap time, while still enjoying everyday driving characteristic. [/quote] Yep, I agree with these sentiments, too. I've seen more than my share of stock-class autocrossers embarass "modded" cars that should be much faster "in theory," even when on the same tires and with similar power-to-weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentlya4 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote]So. Subaru ponies up bigger bucks, gives the GT a stiff, bucking bronco suspension. You tuners change it, yet the average driver goes to the Subaru dealer, pulls out of the driveway for a test drive, hits a bump and says "No way!" So Subaru sells about twelve Legacy GTs, and nobody's happy. [/quote] Not to prolong a discussion, but if Subaru is _really_ gunning for the BMW 3's, the A4's, and the G35's out there, as their ads seem to suggest, they need to offer some sort of a sport suspension option. Since there are already at least two other suspension calibrations (JDM and Spec B) in existance why not import one for the 5-10 percent of buyers who would actually want it? There's obviously no more R&D or tooling money involved in doing so, and buying in larger quantities from its suppliers may drive Subaru's costs for the components lower. IMO this is a miscue on Subaru's part that will turn a few buyers away and send others like myself to the aftermarket to look for suspension alternatives. And to anyone who chooses to bring up the fact that, ads or no ads, the car's real competition is the accord/camry/etc. class I'll remind you of Honda's 'factory performance' packages that are available for some of its vehicles (before I found out about this car I was considering a 6-spd accord coupe with the FP package). They consist of a bodykit, a few interior bits, and a different spring/shock conmbination that greatly improves the car's handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Subaru tried offering its own packages of performance stuff with the SPT kits for the WRX, of which they still have warehouses filled with. That is most certainly making them skittish with the Legacy. The SPT suspension package, at MSRP, was something like $1200. It included (for the sedan) struts, springs, control arms, stiffer bushings, and people still said "That's too expensive. I can get coilovers for that," and did. Even though the SPT package was most excellent (I ran it on my WRX wagon for years), that allowed me to school many a coilover driver at rallycrosses, etc. Further, I don't think Subaru cares about modders when it comes to the Legacy. As I said earlier, no matter what Subaru does, it isn't going to be good enough. The WRX taught them that lesson, and that was a "tuner" car. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentlya4 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote name='gtguy']The SPT suspension package, at MSRP, was something like $1200. It included (for the sedan) struts, springs, control arms, stiffer bushings, and people still said "That's too expensive. I can get coilovers for that," and did. Even though the SPT package was most excellent (I ran it on my WRX wagon for years), that allowed me to school many a coilover driver at rallycrosses, etc. Kevin[/quote] That actually sounds rather reasonable (keep in mind I'm used to pricing for Audi aftermarket bits) when taking into account different control arms (lighter? Stiffer? or just carrying the upgraded bushings?). I'd personally rather have a factory-developed (with the accompanying warranty) setup than an equivalent aftermarket setup that may not perform as well or may void the warranty. One more thought...unless one is concerned with having the ability to adjust ride height why bother with coilovers? The right spring/shock/swaybar combo will manage just as well or better, just without the ability to adjust ride height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote name='currentlya4'][quote name='gtguy']The SPT suspension package, at MSRP, was something like $1200. It included (for the sedan) struts, springs, control arms, stiffer bushings, and people still said "That's too expensive. I can get coilovers for that," and did. Even though the SPT package was most excellent (I ran it on my WRX wagon for years), that allowed me to school many a coilover driver at rallycrosses, etc. Kevin[/quote] That actually sounds rather reasonable (keep in mind I'm used to pricing for Audi aftermarket bits) when taking into account different control arms (lighter? Stiffer? or just carrying the upgraded bushings?). I'd personally rather have a factory-developed (with the accompanying warranty) setup than an equivalent aftermarket setup that may not perform as well or may void the warranty. One more thought...unless one is concerned with having the ability to adjust ride height why bother with coilovers? The right spring/shock/swaybar combo will manage just as well or better, just without the ability to adjust ride height.[/quote] Man, you and I speak the same language! :lol: The control arms were aluminum, WITH uprated bushings. I do think Subaru dropped the ball by not fully warrantying those SPT parts. No dealer would give you a hard time when you drove your car in with the parts on it, but if, say, a strut broke, you were on your own as far as replacement, which was lame. But it was a beaufitully-sorted kit, with OE quality and durability. It also fit. Perfectly. I had two different sets of coilovers, and it was easy to see how you can make your ride and handling worse. My wife still complains about those Tein coilovers, and that was two cars ago! Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnSub Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Offering a $1,400 sport package for the Leg GT buyer is different than offering a sport pack for the WRX crowd that is aftermarket, mod, do-it-myself oriented. Subaru or BMW will never do well selling sport pack or components to the tuner mod crowd. BMW3 has a two levels of sport pack and it is very popular for there less price sensative customers. All the junior execs and and dads that are finally done paying for kids college, order the factory sport pack for a little added pizazz, even if they can't drive to the base cars limits. So, unless the Leg GT market does not have a demographic willing to shell out an extra $1,400 for suspension, trick seats and subtle, but cool minor ques, I hope Suby does offfer a sport or HP pack. Take our $ please. I have said before, I hope Suby offers a sport pack upgrade for base GT and Ltd, but I bet Suby has their sport pack or Leg/GTR plan in progress. Sure hope the current Leg GT sells like crazy to keep the goodness comming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentlya4 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote]Offering a $1,400 sport package for the Leg GT buyer is different than offering a sport pack for the WRX crowd that is aftermarket, mod, do-it-myself oriented. Subaru or BMW will never do well selling sport pack or components to the tuner mod crowd.[/quote] If the B-Spec suspension package were available in the states as a dealer-installed option I have no doubt that I would get it when I purchased the car (granted I drive a modded A4 so my perception probably isn't that of the mainstream Legacy buyer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote name='gtguy']Subaru tried offering its own packages of performance stuff with the SPT kits for the WRX, of which they still have warehouses filled with. That is most certainly making them skittish with the Legacy. The SPT suspension package, at MSRP, was something like $1200. It included (for the sedan) struts, springs, control arms, stiffer bushings, and people still said "That's too expensive. I can get coilovers for that," and did. Even though the SPT package was most excellent (I ran it on my WRX wagon for years), that allowed me to school many a coilover driver at rallycrosses, etc. Further, I don't think Subaru cares about modders when it comes to the Legacy. As I said earlier, no matter what Subaru does, it isn't going to be good enough. The WRX taught them that lesson, and that was a "tuner" car. Kevin[/quote] I doubt that there are "warehouses" full of the SPT suspension packages as you say, but if there are, then its SOAs own fault. Absolutely no warranty, and they discouraged their own dealers from installing them. What kind of signal did that send to anyone that wanted to buy one? If SOA stood behind the STi/SPT suspensions, then I think they would have sold a lot more of them, and a lot of people would have ordered their WRX's with the SPT suspensions on delivery. I ordered the SPT kit on my wagon because my dealer, Irvine Subaru, had the balls to install everything for me, including the bushing set, when I took delivery of my WRX wagon. If they hadn't, I would have done my suspension mods bit by bit like everyone else, or I would have bought an STi take-off suspension. I agree that, with the more performance-oriented suspensions already on the market in Japan, it would be easy for SOA to offer suspension upgrades for relatively reasonable prices. But, they should offer limited warranties and dealer installs. If they don't do that, no one's ever going to take their SPT division seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 [quote name='SC GT'][quote name='gtguy']Subaru tried offering its own packages of performance stuff with the SPT kits for the WRX, of which they still have warehouses filled with. That is most certainly making them skittish with the Legacy. The SPT suspension package, at MSRP, was something like $1200. It included (for the sedan) struts, springs, control arms, stiffer bushings, and people still said "That's too expensive. I can get coilovers for that," and did. Even though the SPT package was most excellent (I ran it on my WRX wagon for years), that allowed me to school many a coilover driver at rallycrosses, etc. Further, I don't think Subaru cares about modders when it comes to the Legacy. As I said earlier, no matter what Subaru does, it isn't going to be good enough. The WRX taught them that lesson, and that was a "tuner" car. Kevin[/quote] I doubt that there are "warehouses" full of the SPT suspension packages as you say, but if there are, then its SOAs own fault. Absolutely no warranty, and they discouraged their own dealers from installing them. What kind of signal did that send to anyone that wanted to buy one? If SOA stood behind the STi/SPT suspensions, then I think they would have sold a lot more of them, and a lot of people would have ordered their WRX's with the SPT suspensions on delivery. I ordered the SPT kit on my wagon because my dealer, Irvine Subaru, had the balls to install everything for me, including the bushing set, when I took delivery of my WRX wagon. If they hadn't, I would have done my suspension mods bit by bit like everyone else, or I would have bought an STi take-off suspension. I agree that, with the more performance-oriented suspensions already on the market in Japan, it would be easy for SOA to offer suspension upgrades for relatively reasonable prices. But, they should offer limited warranties and dealer installs. If they don't do that, no one's ever going to take their SPT division seriously.[/quote] "Warehouses" was an obvious exaggeration, but if people were going aftermarket anyway, why not go with something tried, tested and built to OE standards? I did all of my own suspension work, but my dealer said that the little secret was that no dealer was going to bat an eyelash at the SPT stuff. Mine sure didn't. The other thing that was misunderstood was that people thought that adding the SPT kit voided the car's entire warranty. In fact, only the part in question was unwarrantable. The fact that any warranty on that stuff was unnecessary is neither here nor there. We'll see what's going to happen with the Legacy, and whether Subaru will offer anything. It will need to be very well sorted, and suitable for use on non-smooth roads, such as we have here. It will be interesting, provided they aren't skittish at offering anything other than things such as short shifters, maybe springs, and those fancy door sills. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnSub Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 WRX experience aside, I can't really see Suby offering "parts or components" for user or dealer instal on Leg GTs. Too many good reasons not to, including dealer issues. The only Leg GT add-on perf pack I can see from Suby is one that is ordered by customer or dealer and comes fully installed and waranteed from the factory, like BMW or R32, or V50 T5, etc. No liability concerns, no dealer involvement and of course it will not go far enough for tuners. God luv the tuners and racers because they are so much fun to watch and keep the creative spirit alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRXTom Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Just to support Kevin's comments regarding the SPT gear, my dealer installed the STi suspension on my WRX as well. They also installed a gutted stock uppipe, STi short shifter, a rear sway bar, an aftermarket turboback exhaust and some other stuff I probably forget. None of these modifications had any impact on service quality from the dealer. A number of warranty and TSB repairs were done over the three years I owned the car. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.