Tire upgrades after purchase?

[SUBE555]

Just for reference, back in the Sept '02 issue of SCC (had to look this up, but remembered the article), they talked about some of the Gymkhana cars Bozz performance produces. Granted it's for the ultimate in smooth tarmac machines, but they were using 17x8.5" wheels with 225/40 and 245/40 on the Subarus while one EVO was using 17x8" with 255/40 and the other 17x9.5" F/17x8.5" R both shod with 255/40 series rubber. That's just some extreme examples, but just shows what can be done with wheels and tires. Usually a tire will have a recommended wheel width and an acceptable wheel range. If you are more on the side of ride, sticking to the middle size of narrower wheel will work, while handling, you generally want as wide of wheel as is feasible to keep the sidewall fairly square as noted. But with that more square sidewall, handling will suffer some, all depends greatly on the tire though.

[Rimfaxe]

I was thinking PZero Nero- Didn't see it mentioned much in this thread, but it seemed to have good reviews on TireRack.

[SUBE555]

It does, reason I went with the Toyo, I've seen similar reviews for the Toyo and it was about $100 less for the set. That's some bling. :)

[Xenonk]

Just to let you know, I will be taking off the stock 17" tires and replacing it with 225/45/17 Falken Azenis (autocross, track days). And for the all season run-around, I have a set of 18" rims that I will sport with 225/40/18 Toyo Proxes4. Keefe

[IwannaSportSedan]

[quote name='Xenonk']Just to let you know, I will be taking off the stock 17" tires and replacing it with 225/45/17 Falken Azenis (autocross, track days). And for the all season run-around, I have a set of 18" rims that I will sport with 225/40/18 Toyo Proxes4. Keefe[/quote] Are you putting the Falkens on the stock 17" rims? Just curious why you would put on aftermarket rims for day-to-day, but using stock rims for racing. Stock road wheels on most cars are cast, heavy, and while not weak, they aren't a paragon of strength. I would think that aftermarket forged rims, like SSR Comps, prodrive, or similar, would be a better choice for autox and track days. Low unsprung weight, and high strength. Then you could either e-bay the stock rims, and buy cast or forged 18s for road wheels, or have some 17s for snow tires, or whatever. Plus I would think that the 40 series tires on wider rims would work better for on-the-track handling, with the 45 series on narrower rims would be a little more compliant for potholed roads. That said, I think I would put 225/40-18s summer ultra-performance tires on for the street, as well. I'd probably put them on 18x7.5 BBS RGRs, or maybe SSR GT2s for the summer (and any track day I might want to do will likely be in the miata), and use the 17's for snow tires. But that is just me. I can completely understand if your plans and situations require something else.

[SUBE555]

IWSS, I agree on your take of that for the most part, but not entirely. While yes, the stock wheels may not be optimal for racing, if you aren't all-out competitive, they should be just fine, what's 2lbs/corner if you're only moderately competitive? Not enough for the average weekend driver to know. I may actually pick up an extra set of stock GT wheels for race next year, but I'm just not positive about that yet. Forged versus cast versus one of the newer flow forming technologies, personally unless I want to drop a LOT of cash into wheels alone, I'd go with a good cast or flow forming produced wheel. Decent balance of cost for what you get when most people won't know the difference. If you're competitive, well, you know the answer to that already. I do however believe 17's will be a better all-around mix for winter and 18's for summer, especially if you are in a location where pavement moves/heaves and potholes develop. Might be a bit harsher than you'd like otherwise. I'm considering 18" for the summer, but we'll see. Might be just a good set of Toyo RA-1 race rubber on those babies (or wider 17" rubber, I like the RA-1 for AutoX, but narrowest you can get is 235/40 IIRC, which is questionable on fittment.)

[IwannaSportSedan]

[quote name='SUBE555'] While yes, the stock wheels may not be optimal for racing, if you aren't all-out competitive, they should be just fine, what's 2lbs/corner if you're only moderately competitive? [/quote] Thanks for the input. And you are right. I think the difference would be more than just a couple of pounds, though. I remember the cast 16"s on my 93 Probe GT with tires mounted were something like 44lbs each. Not saying that the legacy's wheels are that heavy, but wheel weight reduction isn't top priority from the factory. A good set of 17-18" forged rims alone shouldn't weigh much more than 19-20 lbs. and I wouldn't think a tire with such a short sidewall would weigh much more than 5-10lbs. 15-20lbs/per wheel, (60-80lbs total) less unsprung, gyroscopic weight should be quite noticeable in acceleration, braking, and handling. Then there is the durability aspect. Flow-formed wheels are probably a good compromize. I've had to replace a cast aftermarket wheel on the miata, and it cracked pretty easily, big one right in the center of the rim (deepest part). I am now a good believer in strong wheels. My wife hit an ice chunk, but could have just as easily been an animal, or good-sized tree branch, or any number of things on the road. Ya know what they say, "horses that don't need to turn the wheels, get to accellerate the car."

[Xenonk]

[quote name='IwannaSportSedan'] Are you putting the Falkens on the stock 17" rims? That said, I think I would put 225/40-18s summer ultra-performance tires on for the street, as well. I'd probably put them on 18x7.5 BBS RGRs, or maybe SSR GT2s for the summer (and any track day I might want to do will likely be in the miata), and use the 17's for snow tires. But that is just me. I can completely understand if your plans and situations require something else.[/quote] The aftermarket rims I have are strong for everyday driving, not to mention it looks great :D Suprisingly enough, the stock rims are pretty light for what they are, so I am not going to purposely shell out another $1500 to $3000 for SSRs, FIKSEs, or any EXTREMELY LIGHTWEIGHT wheels at this time to save 2 to 3 lbs. I think just by using Toyo T1-S tires instead would save me the 1 to 2 lbs in weight. NOTE: I still need to double check the fender clearance for offset sizing and suspension geometry, rather than just buying a set of rims that just 'work' for the car. I would hate to buy a rim/tire setup that hasnt been R&D on this new chassis. Falken Azenis tires are known to have one of the stiffest side walls, but just enough give and flex to give the driver feedback of the adhesion limit of the rubber, basically they act almost like an 18" wheel (good road feedback and quick steering response). I would go with a 225/40/17 tire, but Falken Azenis doesnt come in that size. I like the Azenis because of their Asymetrical design (one less trip to the tire shop to get directionals flipped). As for the aftermarket rims, I am probably going with either Toyo T1-S or Proxes4 (I dont need to push that hard in the public street). I can always stop by the tire shop to remount a the stock RE92s on the stock rims :wink: FYI: I was reading up that adding 1 lb. of rotational weight of the wheel is equivalent to having 50 lbs. of unsprung weight in the car in motion. So with 4 wheels, and if you used a rim that was 1 lb. heavier than stock, the car will act as if it had 100lbs of deadweight. Thank goodness that it's dynamic. So yes, 1 lb can feel like a big difference. I read some other thread on this forum that the stock rim and tire weight was 42 lbs. I'll confirm that later when I get the car and the corner balancing scales. Keefe

[billyjoejimbob]

I live in southern Michigan... significant winter snow, but we still spend most of our winter driving on wet salted pavement. I plan to stay with one set of tires year round. RE92s aren't great, but they're OK until replacement time comes. I'll step up to 225/45-17s on stock rims when the time comes... the stock 215s look wimpy on the LGT. Right now, Perelli P Zero Nero M&S looks good to me. Two other cost effective options: Cooper Lifeliner SLE Sport and Avon Tech M550 A/S look like great values if the performance is decent... TBD. If I were inclined to do two sets of tires and wheels: 205/50-17 snows on the stock wheels, and 225/40-18 summer tires on 18x8s for the good weather.

[98hawk]

Don't get too caught up in grip only. I don't think a legacy has the suspension to handle an aggressive tire. Body roll is pretty bad, would be worse with better tires. I don't dissagree about the tires leaving a little to be desired, But if you are after performance, I would look at putting money into suspension before wheels. That's just my thought.

[TonyDB]

IMO, the tires are weak link and therefore the first upgrade I'd recommend to anybody looking to improve the way the LGT handles. When I say "handles", I don't mean just sticking in the twisties. Braking is just as important, if not more so. Good rubber will improve both stopping distances and provide additional grip in the twisties. I think the stock suspension is pretty good. I don't want a car that transmits every road imperfection. The only suspension mod I will make is to go to the JDM 20mm rear sway bar with a slightly more aggressive alignment. That should reduce body roll somewhat and do a better job of keeping the rear-end more firmly planted.

[Euclid]

Summer tires will be: Kumho ECSTA MX Winter tires will be: Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50

[outahere]

[quote name='TonyDB']........ The only suspension mod I will make is to go to the JDM 20mm rear sway bar with a slightly more aggressive alignment. That should reduce body roll somewhat and do a better job of keeping the rear-end more firmly planted.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't increasing the rear roll stiffness with the larger diameter rear bar lead to more oversteer and make the rear end even more tail happy than it already is?

[TonyDB]

outahere, I'm not a suspension expert by any means. I did do a similar mod on my last car, an A4, which was recommended by a suspension guy and I liked the result. My take on it is that stiffening the rear will inhibit some body roll. To keep the rear end of the car planted in the twisties, you want to try to keep the weight as evenly distributed as posible on the two rear tires. The lateral forces will always shift the car weight in favour of the outside tires in a turn. That's a given. However, the more body roll you have, the more weight you'll have shift to the outside tires. I also noticed that in an earlier thread, Paul at AVO recommended this upgrade for USDM LGT's and actually organized a group buy last month.

[XT6Wagon]

gtguy, having put the "cheapy" Michelin pilot allseasons on the LGT, I can say without a doubt that the RE-92's are still very very bad tires. when handling wet and dry increases, plus quieter and softer ride... you know the old tires sucked.

[Scooter]

BillyJoe - I noticed an oddity in the tire specs when I was shopping for new tires: the stock RE92's have a much narrower tread width than other brands in the 215/45 size. The RE92's are listed at 7.1" tread width, and most others at 8.3". All have the same 8.2-8.3" section width, but the the reason the RE92's look wimpy is that they don't have the same profile as other 215/45's. I confirmed this when I put on the PZero's in the same stock size: noticibly wider tread / much more square profile: more aggressive looking! I hadn't had the car long enough to notice any negative traits from the RE92's; I just decided I hadn't spent $30k on a car only to have *questionable* tires on it. From my Miata experience I know that tires make a bigger performance difference than pretty much any other mod, so I made the switch. $380 out the door, including a measly $20 per tire that the shop offered for the RE92's. But I'm lazy, so I took it rather than trying for more on my own...

[Tide]

Moved to Wheels/Tires forum.

[PGT]

the RE92a's do have a narrow section width. This worked to my advantage as I put them on a set of used wheels to use as the winter set for out MINI Cooper. It has 205/45/17's Dunlop SP9000's from the factory. 215's are a little big, but still usable so the smallish RE92a's split the difference and keep them very close to stock. Amazingly, they handle better than the DSST run-flat's on the stock MINI wheels.

[driggity]

The RE-92s are probably a lot lighter than the runflats which can help matters alot, especially if the roads aren't smooth. When I switched from summer to winter tires on my WRX I noticed that the winters had a lot less grip but helped the car stay better composed over bumpy sections of road. I used the same type of wheels with each tire but the winter tires weighed more than 3 lbs lighter each. On the Legacy I plan on leaving the stock tires on for now, but will be getting some wider wheels with wider summer tires once it consistently warms up. Then next winter I'll probably go with Nokian WRs on the stock rims. They're a great match for the kinds of winters that we get around here.

[PGT]

5lbs per corner on crap Motegi wheels