eekay Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Phenomenal. I bet that engine has some serious mid-range pull & high rpms. Is the short a completely stock 257? I do think that TD04 wouldn't suit an engine with that much gusto though. Just an opinion. It really does have some serious pull. I was very surprised. However, yes. I left the short block stock as far as pistons, rods, rings, etc... Mainly because I only want a DD with SOME get-up-and-go. This is my wagon, after all. I don't plan on more than 350bhp so the stock block should be okay. As far as the TD04L, I completely agree. But, yet again, leaving it with that turbo for the same reason as I just want a dependable daily... Just keep watching these threads for a while. Once I start my 900-1000bhp build, it'll be MUCH more fun. My 9.3 cups EJ22 makes me feel like my **** is 2.8 decimeters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 That makes the EJ20G a semi-close deck. I said that in the previous page lol And said that the EJ22T is the only closed deck. Shoot.. that makes it a better block than the EJ22G if everything else is done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eekay Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Sorry guys. I was talking about the EJ22G. I simply got caught up in all the EJ20 talk and continued to type it, for some stupid reason... The EJ22G IS a closed deck, but from what I've read and seen pictures of, it is not fully closed. At least not as closed as the EJ22(T). Anyone know why this may be? Or if it's even true? Edit: So, I have an EJ22G. Not an EJ20G engine that I plan on building. My 9.3 cups EJ22 makes me feel like my **** is 2.8 decimeters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated broknindarkagain Posted November 30, 2011 I Donated Share Posted November 30, 2011 There is : Open deck Semi - Closed (aka semi-open) Fully closed (aka closed) -broknindarkagain My Current Project - Click Here COME AND TAKE IT "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eekay Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hrm. So, the EJ22G is fully closed then... Interesting. My 9.3 cups EJ22 makes me feel like my **** is 2.8 decimeters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've read in several places that it's semi-closed and several other places that it's fully closed... who knows.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eekay Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Haha. Looks like I'll have to tear it apart and find out, then! My 9.3 cups EJ22 makes me feel like my **** is 2.8 decimeters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated broknindarkagain Posted November 30, 2011 I Donated Share Posted November 30, 2011 I still stand by my previous statement that the only fully closed subaru block is the 2.2 in the turbo Legacys. Please, tear your engine down and either confirm or deny this. If I'm proven wrong, then I will do a funny dance and sing a song about how there are two closed blocks that Subaru makes lol -broknindarkagain My Current Project - Click Here COME AND TAKE IT "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eekay Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Haha. I feel the same way. Never heard of another fully closed EJ block before. I will most certainly be tearing this down at some point. When that points comes, I'm unsure. However, I will definitely be reporting what I find! My 9.3 cups EJ22 makes me feel like my **** is 2.8 decimeters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hmmm I must have been looking at the wrong picture then. This makes complete sense now as to why the octane rating called for, is different. I've seen the two different head designs, and the clover leaf will up the compression from the HLA's 9.5:1 to 10.0:1, but it didn't make sense for that to be the reason you regular fuel could be used. I couldn't figure it out cuz the stupid pictures were wrong.. All I know is that people have put HLA heads on EJ22 turbo bottom ends. I don't know how though, as I have yet to actually research it in depth. I had already planned to use solid lifters if I was going to want to rev over 7k rpm and make mostly top end power, but stay with the Hydraulics and design it to have mid range power and keep it a daily driver if I didn't end up getting another DD Subaru. I think I may have changed my mine about this in general though, as I HATE the clicking noise HLA's make with a passion... Yeah, I shouldn't have use the word exactly. Especially since the heads are the same type, but designed differently from the factory (combustion chamber bore, intake/exhaust porting, and cams). I didn't realize that the EJ22G was just a bored out EJ20G, not a variant of the EJ22T. But that could actually be just as good since it's also a closed deck and does have forged internals. And doesn't an EJ20G have oil squirters? Wouldn't, in turn, the EJ22G have oil squirters? Honestly, if you modified the heads correctly and designed them after the EJ22G, and put them on the EJ22T (I believe the piston have to be changed for some reason that I've forgotten), upgraded the headers, up pipe, turbo, down pipe, exhaust, and tuning, this would create one kick ass motor. This is why I'm certain that clover leaf heads on a 96 block will increase the compression & possibly yield a little more power. 91+ would still need to be used with this combo. I believe someone on here had this engine so I thought I'd mention it in passing. As for HLA heads on 22T bottom ends, I would imagine that the gaskets used are either extremely tough or that the heads or block have received some kind of work done to them. If not at all, then by all means, have at it The 96 heads need a little port work though as the intake/exhaust ports are just a shade smaller than the later versions. You guys are correct in HLA heads being better DDs. Max TQ @ 2800rpm is a HELL of a lot better than being @ 4400. I've never been in a 96 GT but I can imagine it getting off the ground better than my own GT. This is the 22G's heads are essentially the same as Ver. 4 STi Type R heads (20G heads). If you could get a 22T short, Ver 4. STi Type R heads, & have the compression at 8.5:1, you would be all set. Supposedly, those heads are good up to a breath over 7000rpm, which is actually pretty nice. The 96 GT heads fall short at about 6000rpm. However, they are VERY similar to 20G heads so anything is possible. Your engine would be very close to a 22G. As for oil squirters, the 22G doesn't have any. Not like the 22T does. The 20G may be a closed deck engine. Not all 20Gs are the same, however. There are different variations of that one engine alone but they all have the same basic internal hardware: Cams, crank, rods, manifolds, throttle body, pistons etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Compression isn't really an issue as the heads can be milled. If I've done my math correctly, HLA heads on a EJ22T would yield around low to mid 8's in compression. Plus, the HLA head has a combustion chamber designed exactly like the WRX/STi chambers. I'm not sure how that clover leaf design would change the flow of air and combustion compared to the WRX/STi design. Subikid knows quite a bit about all of this as far as I can tell. He would also know about the gasket. As far as comparing port sizes of the HLA's to the clover leafs, the HLA's do have smaller exhaust ports, BUT they actually have slightly larger intake ports. Since I've actually driven my 96 GT, I will argue that with my heads, the car always pulls hard at the top end. Even when pulling 5500 to just over 6000 rpm in third gear. I wish the limiter wasn't there in 4th because it's still pulling hard when it hits 5k. When I had the heads off while doing the head gaskets, my dad had the exhaust ports ported slightly. It pulls even harder up top, even in the upper gears. If you look at the specs, our car peak in power at the same RPM. There's just a difference of 10 horsepower because of the compression difference. I feel like with the right cam design, proper porting, and a strong enough valve train, these heads could make great power from mid range all the way to 8k rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulzcow Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I know I have HLA heads and my motor also pulls pretty ballsy in higher RPMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHCEJ22E1 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Compression isn't really an issue as the heads can be milled. If I've done my math correctly, HLA heads on a EJ22T would yield around low to mid 8's in compression. Plus, the HLA head has a combustion chamber designed exactly like the WRX/STi chambers. I'm not sure how that clover leaf design would change the flow of air and combustion compared to the WRX/STi design. Subikid knows quite a bit about all of this as far as I can tell. He would also know about the gasket. As far as comparing port sizes of the HLA's to the clover leafs, the HLA's do have smaller exhaust ports, BUT they actually have slightly larger intake ports. Since I've actually driven my 96 GT, I will argue that with my heads, the car always pulls hard at the top end. Even when pulling 5500 to just over 6000 rpm in third gear. I wish the limiter wasn't there in 4th because it's still pulling hard when it hits 5k. When I had the heads off while doing the head gaskets, my dad had the exhaust ports ported slightly. It pulls even harder up top, even in the upper gears. If you look at the specs, our car peak in power at the same RPM. There's just a difference of 10 horsepower because of the compression difference. I feel like with the right cam design, proper porting, and a strong enough valve train, these heads could make great power from mid range all the way to 8k rpm. The clover leaf design of the 98 heads allows more compression to take place due to the extra material that isn't on the 96 heads. The gasket is another important factor in final CR. I'm looking at the TQ difference. We have near the same TQ level but yours comes on to peak @ a very gracious 2800rpm. I also don't doubt that your car pulls at high rpm as mine does as well. I just have crap for low end pull while yours is simply amazing. Our midrange power is a combination of the internal combustion chamber designs as well as the DOHC setup, I believe. We have the cams for mid-range power. I know that stock, the Ver 4 HLAs are good up to 7000rpm & your heads are very close to being just like they are. However, if you could get them turning up to 8000rpm, would the cams, springs, & valves needed push your peak TQ up in the powerband? I'd hope not but it's extremely likely that they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yeah, I know that's the reason that they create more compression. But having those little indentations in the chamber can change the way the air flow into the cylinder. I'm just wondering which head flows most efficiently. I know this matters less on a turbo build than an N/A car, but I am picky down to the finest details. Also, I thought my engine peaks at only 140 lb ft. and yours at 160 or 165 lb ft? Also, I will give part of the low end pull to the really short gearing. It pulls just as hard as my Camaro that makes 250 lb ft at 2000 rpm. It's way more peppy and quick feeling as well. Thinking into this, the only real deciding factor for me is if I want HLA lifters and what chamber design I want. Otherwise they're exactly the same except for porting. But, they could easily be ported. To be honest, I know nothing about the cams. I've never even looked into them. The most research I did was on the type of cam re grinds available out there, and never the stock design. But from the sounds of what the more mild cam re grinds do, I believe you to be right about them being designed for mid range power. As far as peaking power levels, I do agree. I would say that they'd probably make power to about 7500 rpm and then go flat. I have to do more research, math, and comparisons to other heads to be sure about it though. To be honest though, I'd never try to rev these heads over 7k rpm in stock form with as many miles as there are on them. I just don't think they'd hold up in the long run. The car for sure pulls the hardest between 3500 rpm and just below 6000 rpm where the power starts to level off. Even though it still pulls beyond that, it just doesn't continuously harder after that. You know what I mean? To properly shift the power band towards the top, the cams would have to be reground, injectors upgraded, and a standalone/piggy back ECU would have to be installed. But I wouldn't do this unless at least a 5 speed was being used. It's not just because the high revving capability, but the fact that the engine can rev quickly as well. And that's an important factor most people look over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated broknindarkagain Posted December 1, 2011 I Donated Share Posted December 1, 2011 ^I'm sure those posts have useful info in them....but they are too long and I'm too lazy to read them right now -broknindarkagain My Current Project - Click Here COME AND TAKE IT "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yeah, I know that's the reason that they create more compression. But having those little indentations in the chamber can change the way the air flow into the cylinder. I'm just wondering which head flows most efficiently. I know this matters less on a turbo build than an N/A car, but I am picky down to the finest details. Also, I thought my engine peaks at only 140 lb ft. and yours at 160 or 165 lb ft? Also, I will give part of the low end pull to the really short gearing. It pulls just as hard as my Camaro that makes 250 lb ft at 2000 rpm. It's way more peppy and quick feeling as well. Thinking into this, the only real deciding factor for me is if I want HLA lifters and what chamber design I want. Otherwise they're exactly the same except for porting. But, they could easily be ported. The EJ25D heads are the best flowing NA USDM heads out there. My brothers 98LGT (My first one) has ported and polished EJ25D heads that we were able to port pretty big. I have looked at pictures and they are much bigger after the port than an EJ205 head was after porting and similar to a ported EJ257 head. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/ej25d-heads-ej257-169573.html -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Do you have any information regarding what head gaskets should be used? EJ257 gasket? Also, EJ25D heads have to tapped for the oil feed lines, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Do you have any information regarding what head gaskets should be used? EJ257 gasket? I would use EJ257 or cosmetic headgaskets Also, EJ25D heads have to tapped for the oil feed lines, right? Yes you need to tap for oil lines, I have seen it done using the oil pressure sensor instead. I do not know if this is better or worse but it does work. -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Awesome! That's easy enough.. Now, I remember you saying something about needing to change the pistons in the 22T for some reason? I completely forgot why and where you said it... Aren't you doing a similar build but with EJ205 heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subikid90 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t160188-diy-turbo-your-car.html -Subikid90 1997 Legacy GT 5spd & EJ251 w/EJ25D heads ~10.5CR 1998 Legacy GT Limited waiting for EJ22T hybrid swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyfvholla Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 It's been done before!! http://www.youtube.com/user/WhitelegacyGuy#g/u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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