Deer Killer Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 So you could get 2 legacy's for the price of the M3. Don't care. It's twice as much car. Screw the magazine comparisons, here's what isn't described. Brakes: M3 brakes make the Subaru brakes feel like I'm trying to push my foot into a bucket of pudding. This is even with Teflon/SS lines and it properly bled, many times by now. Actually now I even feel unsafe in the Legacy, should I not be able to muster enough force in my leg or I push myself too far back into my seat. Clutch: M3 clutch is precise, long throw and very tactile feeling of bottoming it out, smooth light and consistent engagement point, and the engagement point is firm, just like the brakes. Does not stink. Legacy clutch requires about twice as much effort, has a throw that is too short, the pressure plate makes contact from near the bottom and most of the way up without providing real grip, just vague engagement. The engagement point moves around (probably because of the mechanical shim/"auto" adjustment plate). It stinks, literally. Can't launch over 2.5-3k with the AVO380 turbo without getting no engagement, can't really say that is a minus since I'm probably achieving 150-200 ft/lbs more than stock. Handling: M3 steering is incredible communicative. It is not harsh, neither is the ride. Feeling the limits of grip of the front wheels is instantaneous. Finding counter-steer angles seems almost like second nature (and necessary with some right foot fun) Somehow it manages to be much stiffer than the legacy, while still removing high-frequency vibration from the road. Confidence is spectacular entering any turn. Legacy is vague, feels like I'm driving a jeep now. The tearing LCA bushings don't help, but it's not really much worse than stock. The Legacy clearly has a lower CG, which it really really needs because the suspension is soft soft soft. Traction: M3 doesn't really have much. First gear is all under traction control. Second gear will find traction in a straight line, if not, the tail is out. Shifting hard into 3rd gear at ~74mph without a straight steering angle will make your passengers crap their pants. Don't drive it in the snow, hell keep it home even in the rain. It is not for drag racing. The hard suspension means very little weight transfer under acceleration or braking. Legacy is awesome - except it needs a better center diff, it doesn't have nearly enough preload and locking nearly quick enough. Front is open diff, sometimes it's a problem. Engine: M3 V8 revving to 8400 RPM is spectacular. The exhaust is so well designed, even with no active flaps, there is zero droning at any speed, could even be described as barely audible, but it comes alive with throttle. Reaching 8400 RPM has been described by my passengers as "OMG, orgasm!". It's the kind of sound that lets other people know that you bang women. The throttle response is instantaneous and the throttle pedal is actually useful for modulating wheel torque. However, it has no torque. Which is fine, because any more torque would make 2nd gear useless too. You have to rev it to 8400 RPM to get all of you 400+ horses to the ground. The Legacy with an AVO380 and EL headers sounds like you like to write programs in Linux and you spend your Friday nights watching the SyFy channel. The torque pushes you back in your seat, almost an eternity after you have your foot on the floor. The throttle pedal is nearly useless, which is good for a binary driving style. The engine output is also unpredictable, which makes the throttle pedal even more useless. Will the knock sensor hear noise this time? Yeah probably. Wonder how much timing it will pull. Is the WG actuator or the boost solenoid warm? Might make more or less boost. The crippled boost control system will not be able to compensate due to lack of a derivative table as well as not having per-gear tables, not to mention the archaic design of the WG actuator (OEM is best, *cough*) Is the TMIC warm? uh-oh. Might get 400HP.. Might get 350.. or less?? It's always a bit of a surprise. (Even when stock) Gearbox: M3 6-speed is always so precise. The engagement points are always in the same place, the shifts go "snick snick". When you shift gears, it's almost like the next gear sucks the shifter into place. Legacy gearbox is like trying to stir a box of marbles with a broomstick. Even after a short shifter and Subaru Extra-S cat's meow gear oil. IMHO the short shifter does nothing for the shifting. Stock, it feels like it's trying to bite your hand off as you're shifting into second gear. Shifting from first into second takes such a long time as you try to force the shifter in there like trying to extract your arm from the mouth of a rabid pit bull. If you've been in a high-G turn, well your gears might have moved and good luck getting it into 3rd of 4th. Seats: M3 seats have electric adjustable side bolsters. Holds you like a custom fit racing seat. Seat heaters start working very quickly. Legacy seats are... meh.. leather is quite a bit harder as well. Gadgets: Well why even bother with this one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 So - I take it you like the M3. Sounds like a spectacular driver's car. Our humble Legacys are, as someone recently put it, great daily drivers. Ideal situation for me would be an M3 as a dedicated track and weekend canyon-bruiser and the LGT for all the other times I need practicality and AWD utility. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 The problem is I'm putting too many miles on the M3 ;-) And the Legacy will miss the first snow storm since I bought it, due to a broken sway bar bracket.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Ouch - on both accounts. GLWY sway bar bracket. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 And just think for 15-20k less you can buy a 2011 mustang gt and be just as fast as a m3 around a track or in a straight line. With cheaper cost to own and mod. Looks/styling are personal preference but the same performance for far less cost is fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpmarky Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 New s4 is pretty sweet too, good combo of m3 performance and LGT practicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1anatic Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I believe I wrote a similar account on the 2010 Audi S4 when i drove one last June. Incredibly different machine that does everything much better. Not sure if the price is warranted but definitely worth 10-15k over a Legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpmarky Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Yeh, the S4 avant will probably be my next car. That is after at least 1 engine rebuild with the LGT and 300k miles ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
executor485 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Your comparing 2 completely different categories of cars though too. I know that we'd like to say our cars are comparable to the M3, but there is a lot it has that we cant have. At the same time, there is some drawback to the M3... What do I mean? Well, some simplicity for one. Can I get a cupholder? Can I get some rear seat legroom? Can I get AWD? Can I get a car that I dont have to use 2 hands on the steering wheel to turn into a parking space? (those steering ratios and tightness issues are cool for sportiness, but casual driving makes me want to beat my head into a wall) Its also a comparison of a car that is made FOR the track as opposed to our cars which are made for the road. We can turn our cars into track cars and upgrade things, but thats not what it was originally made to do. My biggest complaint with the M3 is value for money. Sure its a lot of car, but the interior looks like it hasnt been updated in MANY years. I'm not saying in terms of quality, but in terms of styling. It just lacks the sporty look inside, but thats IMO. It has a lot of gadgets and such, but when you add just a couple of things the car ROCKETS from 57k to 68k REALLY REALLY quickly. A fully loaded one comes in at around 75k?!?!?! The M3 is no doubt a great car, but really, the LGT and M3 arent comparable cars. Even though we do try and make them that way. lol If I pass you on the right, I'm flipping you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 I believe I wrote a similar account on the 2010 Audi S4 when i drove one last June. Incredibly different machine that does everything much better. Not sure if the price is warranted but definitely worth 10-15k over a Legacy. My other choice was an S5, which I almost bought. The M3 is way > the S5. Wasn't even a driver's car, had variable ratio steering, I don't know if the S4's are coming with that. Not knowing your current steering angle FTL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Your comparing 2 completely different categories of cars though too. I know that we'd like to say our cars are comparable to the M3, but there is a lot it has that we cant have. At the same time, there is some drawback to the M3... What do I mean? Well, some simplicity for one. Can I get a cupholder? Can I get some rear seat legroom? Can I get AWD? Can I get a car that I dont have to use 2 hands on the steering wheel to turn into a parking space? (those steering ratios and tightness issues are cool for sportiness, but casual driving makes me want to beat my head into a wall)No idea what you're suggesting, on all counts. I use the cupholders often. E90 sedan might have more rear leg room than the legacy as well. Certainly negligible difference. Also the M3's rear seats fold.. Subaru's are _supposed_ to be drivers cars... or so I had an impression. Well it's certainly less boring than a camry or accord. Its also a comparison of a car that is made FOR the track as opposed to our cars which are made for the road. We can turn our cars into track cars and upgrade things, but thats not what it was originally made to do. My biggest complaint with the M3 is value for money. Sure its a lot of car, but the interior looks like it hasnt been updated in MANY years. I'm not saying in terms of quality, but in terms of styling. It just lacks the sporty look inside, but thats IMO. It has a lot of gadgets and such, but when you add just a couple of things the car ROCKETS from 57k to 68k REALLY REALLY quickly. A fully loaded one comes in at around 75k?!?!?! The M3 is no doubt a great car, but really, the LGT and M3 arent comparable cars. Even though we do try and make them that way. lol M3's a road car for the track.. A Porsche 911 turbo would be a track car for the road. The car is certainly not the value end of the economy, that's for sure. But it's a sporty sedan with 4 doors. The only real differentiator of "class" here is AWD vs RWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpmarky Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Can I get a cupholder? Can I get some rear seat legroom? Can I get AWD? Can I get a car that I dont have to use 2 hands on the steering wheel to turn into a parking space? (those steering ratios and tightness issues are cool for sportiness, but casual driving makes me want to beat my head into a wall) S4 addresses all that ; ) Cupholder? yes Rear legroom? yes AWD? yes Tight steering ratio? yes, it's adjustable (comfort or sport modes available on the fly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Yeh, the S4 avant will probably be my next car. Not unless you want a previous gen car or are planning to move out of the country: I don't believe Audi is offering an S4 Avant in the US anymore. Seek first to understand, then to be understood. In other words: SEARCH before you post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 I don't understand the complaint about the steering. Seriously no clue. M3 has a tight ratio and I have 0 complaints. Actually it has sport mode and non-sport mode. The boost is reduced for more road-feel in sport mode. Audi's harmonic drive variable ratio steering is simply disturbing to me. The steering angle is completely unpredictable. Good luck with expensive wheels and parallel parking without curbing them... They left that crap out of the M3, thanks god. "comfort", LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You really listed electric seat bolsters? You mean like the ones that were in the Supra back in the mid-late 80s, and the 3000GT/Stealth since its inception? Somewhere on the Lamborghini or Ferrari board someone is posting "Had to drive the shitbox M3 again because of bad weather. Drives like a shopping cart compared to a 'real' car..." Don't get me wrong -- I'm finished with turboed small engines too. From now on I want enough cubes to be fast without boost. Then if I go forced induction it'll be ridiculously fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Legacy does not have them, that's all that matters for this comparison. I'm not done with small turboed engines. Just want my next one to be done properly. DI/high compression, twinscroll, electric WG actuator or VNT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 So you could get 2 legacy's for the price of the M3. Don't care. It's twice as much car. Screw the magazine comparisons, here's what isn't described. Brakes: M3 brakes make the Subaru brakes feel like I'm trying to push my foot into a bucket of pudding. This is even with Teflon/SS lines and it properly bled, many times by now. Actually now I even feel unsafe in the Legacy, should I not be able to muster enough force in my leg or I push myself too far back into my seat. Clutch: M3 clutch is precise, long throw and very tactile feeling of bottoming it out, smooth light and consistent engagement point, and the engagement point is firm, just like the brakes. Does not stink. Legacy clutch requires about twice as much effort, has a throw that is too short, the pressure plate makes contact from near the bottom and most of the way up without providing real grip, just vague engagement. The engagement point moves around (probably because of the mechanical shim/"auto" adjustment plate). It stinks, literally. Can't launch over 2.5-3k with the AVO380 turbo without getting no engagement, can't really say that is a minus since I'm probably achieving 150-200 ft/lbs more than stock. Handling: M3 steering is incredible communicative. It is not harsh, neither is the ride. Feeling the limits of grip of the front wheels is instantaneous. Finding counter-steer angles seems almost like second nature (and necessary with some right foot fun) Somehow it manages to be much stiffer than the legacy, while still removing high-frequency vibration from the road. Confidence is spectacular entering any turn. Legacy is vague, feels like I'm driving a jeep now. The tearing LCA bushings don't help, but it's not really much worse than stock. The Legacy clearly has a lower CG, which it really really needs because the suspension is soft soft soft. Traction: M3 doesn't really have much. First gear is all under traction control. Second gear will find traction in a straight line, if not, the tail is out. Shifting hard into 3rd gear at ~74mph without a straight steering angle will make your passengers crap their pants. Don't drive it in the snow, hell keep it home even in the rain. It is not for drag racing. The hard suspension means very little weight transfer under acceleration or braking. Legacy is awesome - except it needs a better center diff, it doesn't have nearly enough preload and locking nearly quick enough. Front is open diff, sometimes it's a problem. Engine: M3 V8 revving to 8400 RPM is spectacular. The exhaust is so well designed, even with no active flaps, there is zero droning at any speed, could even be described as barely audible, but it comes alive with throttle. Reaching 8400 RPM has been described by my passengers as "OMG, orgasm!". It's the kind of sound that lets other people know that you bang women. The throttle response is instantaneous and the throttle pedal is actually useful for modulating wheel torque. However, it has no torque. Which is fine, because any more torque would make 2nd gear useless too. You have to rev it to 8400 RPM to get all of you 400+ horses to the ground. The Legacy with an AVO380 and EL headers sounds like you like to write programs in Linux and you spend your Friday nights watching the SyFy channel. The torque pushes you back in your seat, almost an eternity after you have your foot on the floor. The throttle pedal is nearly useless, which is good for a binary driving style. The engine output is also unpredictable, which makes the throttle pedal even more useless. Will the knock sensor hear noise this time? Yeah probably. Wonder how much timing it will pull. Is the WG actuator or the boost solenoid warm? Might make more or less boost. The crippled boost control system will not be able to compensate due to lack of a derivative table as well as not having per-gear tables, not to mention the archaic design of the WG actuator (OEM is best, *cough*) Is the TMIC warm? uh-oh. Might get 400HP.. Might get 350.. or less?? It's always a bit of a surprise. (Even when stock) Gearbox: M3 6-speed is always so precise. The engagement points are always in the same place, the shifts go "snick snick". When you shift gears, it's almost like the next gear sucks the shifter into place. Legacy gearbox is like trying to stir a box of marbles with a broomstick. Even after a short shifter and Subaru Extra-S cat's meow gear oil. IMHO the short shifter does nothing for the shifting. Stock, it feels like it's trying to bite your hand off as you're shifting into second gear. Shifting from first into second takes such a long time as you try to force the shifter in there like trying to extract your arm from the mouth of a rabid pit bull. If you've been in a high-G turn, well your gears might have moved and good luck getting it into 3rd of 4th. Seats: M3 seats have electric adjustable side bolsters. Holds you like a custom fit racing seat. Seat heaters start working very quickly. Legacy seats are... meh.. leather is quite a bit harder as well. Gadgets: Well why even bother with this one.... Ah, I never got to drive the E90/92 M3 as they came out after I left the BMW world. Sounds similar to the current M5 and M6 though which I have driven, at least in engine character. Wonderful motor the 5.0L V10, and I imagine the 4.0L V8 on the same architecture is a real sweetheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
executor485 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No idea what you're suggesting, on all counts. I use the cupholders often. E90 sedan might have more rear leg room than the legacy as well. Certainly negligible difference. Also the M3's rear seats fold.. Subaru's are _supposed_ to be drivers cars... or so I had an impression. Well it's certainly less boring than a camry or accord. The M3 has "cupholders", if you can call them that... Little pieces of plastic that flop out of the dashboard, are not in comfortable reach of you, and cant hold anything more than a soda can without fear of them breaking off. I havent tested this, but what would happen if you put a Route 44 Sonic drink in that cupholder? Would it fit, and if you mashed the gas would it just fall out and make a mess? No issues with putting that drink in the subie (or a car with real cupholders) and mashing the gas. Stays right where it's supposed to. Legroom, I've put my seat at the same position in each car and then sat in the back seat. LGT, very uncomfortable, but I can sit there. M3, I cant fit my foot in there let alone my leg. Maybe its just because I'm 6' 3", but it def doesnt have more room in the back when I'm driving. Folding seats, 07 LGT's fixed this... Yes, it should have been in 05+, but its not an issue for 07+. Subaru's are supposed to be drivers cars? We'd love to say this... But their entire line is NOT based on a "drivers car" mindset. They are however, based on a safety mindset. The aspects of this being AWD, good build quality (strength of frame and whatnot), and the engine (which has a low center of gravity, which means that the cars have less body roll, which means they are less likely to roll, which lends to the "safety" aspect - yes thats sporty, but in Subaru's mind its safety more than sport in all the ranges save for the WRX). Yes, they are nice cars to drive, but BMW's capitalize on purely "a drivers car" aspect. Subaru's are trying to get people to enjoy driving their cars, but not rake them over the coals, while still providing the safety aspect, etc etc etc. Completely different sales and marketing models. M3's a road car for the track.. A Porsche 911 turbo would be a track car for the road. The car is certainly not the value end of the economy, that's for sure. But it's a sporty sedan with 4 doors. The only real differentiator of "class" here is AWD vs RWD. I may be wrong... Its been a while since I saw this. But when they made the BMW M3, wasnt it designed AS a race car that you could drive on the road? I thought for sure they designed it purely for track use with the ability to drive it on the road. Again, may be wrong, but I remember seeing some documentary on the M3 and thats what I thought I heard. So, with all this... Again, as much as we'd like to say they are in the same class, they are truly NOT even close. We try to get our cars to be like the M3 (a noble pursuit), but in the end, its not. A good comparison though, would be the S4 (or even better the RS4). Which is designed specifically to compete against the M3, which has been known to be "the benchmark for driving experience cars". If I pass you on the right, I'm flipping you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 The M3 has "cupholders", if you can call them that... Little pieces of plastic that flop out of the dashboard, are not in comfortable reach of you, and cant hold anything more than a soda can without fear of them breaking off. I havent tested this, but what would happen if you put a Route 44 Sonic drink in that cupholder? Would it fit, and if you mashed the gas would it just fall out and make a mess? No issues with putting that drink in the subie (or a car with real cupholders) and mashing the gas. Stays right where it's supposed to.Is that one of those cups that holds a gallon of soda? Seeing as I have some respect for my own body I don't get those. However a grande and venti starbucks cup (fff yeah latte drinking BMW driver) or a bubble tea cup fits very snuggly in there, and I never go easy on the throttle... Sorry still don't see a basis for a complaint here. Also the driver's cup holder is directly within arm's reach, and I am not particularly tall. Legroom, I've put my seat at the same position in each car and then sat in the back seat. LGT, very uncomfortable, but I can sit there. M3, I cant fit my foot in there let alone my leg. Maybe its just because I'm 6' 3", but it def doesnt have more room in the back when I'm driving. Have you tried the sedan vs coupe? Coupe has different seats, and it's a 4 seater. Sedan is pretty roomy, also more space under the front seat for your feet. Subaru's are supposed to be drivers cars? We'd love to say this... But their entire line is NOT based on a "drivers car" mindset. They are however, based on a safety mindset. The aspects of this being AWD, good build quality (strength of frame and whatnot), and the engine (which has a low center of gravity, which means that the cars have less body roll, which means they are less likely to roll, which lends to the "safety" aspect - yes thats sporty, but in Subaru's mind its safety more than sport in all the ranges save for the WRX). Yes, they are nice cars to drive, but BMW's capitalize on purely "a drivers car" aspect. Subaru's are trying to get people to enjoy driving their cars, but not rake them over the coals, while still providing the safety aspect, etc etc etc. Completely different sales and marketing models.Sorry, birkenstock wearing lesbian car.. What do you want, seriously? I may be wrong... Its been a while since I saw this. But when they made the BMW M3, wasnt it designed AS a race car that you could drive on the road? I thought for sure they designed it purely for track use with the ability to drive it on the road. Again, may be wrong, but I remember seeing some documentary on the M3 and thats what I thought I heard. Supposedly the only thing it shares in common with the 3 series are the door and trunk panels, and it's built in a different factory. However... it's still a 3 series.. It's not a racecar, it's not. The M3 guys will pounce on you if you try and push this, they all need upgraded brakes, etc, etc, etc. So, with all this... Again, as much as we'd like to say they are in the same class, they are truly NOT even close. We try to get our cars to be like the M3 (a noble pursuit), but in the end, its not. A good comparison though, would be the S4 (or even better the RS4). Which is designed specifically to compete against the M3, which has been known to be "the benchmark for driving experience cars". I drove the RS4, it's a wild ride, but guess why I ended up with the M3 instead... I don't think it's a lot to ask for Subaru to fix some of the things I mentioned above. They pissed me off long before I even though about buying the M3. If I was employed at Subaru engineering I'd spend some time beating some people over the head until they got some of these parts right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How clueless do you have to be to ever cross-shop or cross-reference or even claim they are remotely close to the same class, when looking at an M3 and a Legacy? Or any Subaru for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gire Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Welcome back, Deer Killer. I'll take my new M3 in red, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueWhiteBoy Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 OK, now I'm ready for the 2011 Mustang GT vs M3 Comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
executor485 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 ok, now i'm ready for the 2011 mustang gt vs m3 comparison rofl... If I pass you on the right, I'm flipping you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Laugh all you want to, but I'll bet you the Boss 302 will beat an M3 around a track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
executor485 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Laugh all you want to, but I'll bet you the Boss 302 will beat an M3 around a track. I wasnt laughing AT the comparison per say... Just what the comments will be on it. On the note of the 302, yea, it's gonna beat the M3 around the track, easily... The comparison of the GT (I think it had the track package) was that the M3 was less than a second faster around the track. Now put the 302 package out there, more power, better tires, and upgraded suspension bits... Yea, its all over for the M3... And the 302 is 40k or in that neighborhood? If I pass you on the right, I'm flipping you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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