Driving in snow

[rage557]

Yep, it's all about the driver. The snow tires just help a little.

 

Well I will take any improvement I can get out here in Boston. Mass drives scare the crap out of me with all the stupid things they do. I wish all of em used snows but I have a feeling 80% run summer tires in the winter:lol:

[SATSFYD]

I believe it’s required up north in Canada to run snows during the winter.

[ssbtech]

I believe it’s required up north in Canada to run snows during the winter.

 

Only in Quebec.

[Kodax]

I will be disabling my ABS and going out to test braking performance in a parking lot once some snow falls here. From my brief experience with it last year on snows and allseasons, stopping distances decreased dramatically. Control was lost, but stopping distance was improved tremendously....which is sometimes more important.

 

If I think I can get away with it safely I'll run ABS relay-less all winter.

 

Sorry for a noob question. You can disable your ABS? Isn't that dangerous?

[Max Capacity]

Well I will take any improvement I can get out here in Boston. Mass drives scare the crap out of me with all the stupid things they do. I wish all of em used snows but I have a feeling 80% run summer tires in the winter:lol:

 

Hence one of the reasons we call them Massholes.

 

 

If you slow down and realize you don't have the best tires and skills your be fine. Like I told my son when he was 16, it's about getting, not about who gets there first.

 

There is a time and a place for everything. Driving in snow is neither the place or the time.

[ssbtech]

Sorry for a noob question. You can disable your ABS? Isn't that dangerous?

 

If you know how to use the brakes properly in the snow, you can stop shorter without ABS than with it.

 

ABS only allows you to retain steering control under heavy braking (or wheel lock-up).

 

Even tho it adds to stopping distance, I won't be disabling it. Last thing I need is the insurance company finding the removed ABS fuse after I slid sideways into a tree

[fishbone]

Someone tried to disable the ABS in a safe and clean way (no CELs, etc) for rally purposes and was unable to do so easily or cheaply. I wish you luck. I also subscribe that it's a bad idea.

[robinlsb]

If you know how to use the brakes properly in the snow, you can stop shorter without ABS than with it.

 

ABS only allows you to retain steering control under heavy braking (or wheel lock-up).

 

Even tho it adds to stopping distance, I won't be disabling it. Last thing I need is the insurance company finding the removed ABS fuse after I slid sideways into a tree

 

Unless you are a professional racing driver with LOTS of seat time on ice and snow, your chances of stopping shorter (or avoiding an accident) approach zero.

 

I suggest you try a test, under unknown conditions (you only have one chance, in the real world) and rethink "If you know how to use the brakes properly in the snow, you can stop shorter ";)

 

Try non ABS first:lol: One chance. Thats it.

[robinlsb]

Someone tried to disable the ABS in a safe and clean way (no CELs, etc) for rally purposes and was unable to do so easily or cheaply. I wish you luck. I also subscribe that it's a bad idea.

 

Yup, something about proportioning;)

[fishbone]

And something else about it being a bad BAD idea.

[aziankingz]

i doubt a human can stop quicker than an ABS lol.. isnt ABS basically tapping the brakes a lot at a rapid motion?

[dmanaenk]

Someone tried to disable the ABS in a safe and clean way (no CELs, etc) for rally purposes and was unable to do so easily or cheaply.

Not true.

[shutterbc]

To the OP, if you're interested in more snow / ice driving practice, I wonder if they have a winter driving school in your area. This thing might be within range of you.

 

The theory behind better braking without ABS is that since the wheels lock up, it allows snow to pile up in front of the tire and act as a wedge to slow you down. I haven't tried this, but I'd wager that in some cases it really works. However it could make things worse on an icy surface, and in a panic situation I wouldn't trust myself to distinguish the difference fast enough to adjust appropriately.

 

I'm leaving my ABS on. When I get on a road with an unknown amount of snow, I tend to let ABS tell me where my braking threshold is. Then I can set my cruising speed / following distance accordingly.

[Kodax]

To the OP, if you're interested in more snow / ice driving practice, I wonder if they have a winter driving school in your area. This thing might be within range of you.

 

The theory behind better braking without ABS is that since the wheels lock up, it allows snow to pile up in front of the tire and act as a wedge to slow you down. I haven't tried this, but I'd wager that in some cases it really works. However it could make things worse on an icy surface, and in a panic situation I wouldn't trust myself to distinguish the difference fast enough to adjust appropriately.

 

I'm leaving my ABS on. When I get on a road with an unknown amount of snow, I tend to let ABS tell me where my braking threshold is. Then I can set my cruising speed / following distance accordingly.

 

Thanks for the link. I appreciate it.

 

But I don't have about $599 to spend on this kind of schools. I am a poor college kid trying to graduate from school.

[burnout8488]

Unless you are a professional racing driver with LOTS of seat time on ice and snow, your chances of stopping shorter (or avoiding an accident) approach zero.

 

The same stopping test conducted with and without ABS will prove that having ABS disabled LOWERS stopping distances.

 

A skidding tire produces more friction than a rolling tire. Simple. That, and the snow piling up in front of the tire help it stop faster.

 

This says nothing about retaining control. ABS will provide you with CONTROL, however stopping distances will be higher. That's all I'm trying to prove. I know it will throw an ABS fault light, I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about how awful my car stopped last winter even with snow tires.

[krzyss]

i doubt a human can stop quicker than an ABS lol.. isnt ABS basically tapping the brakes a lot at a rapid motion?

 

ABS is not to shorten braking distance but to maintain control of the vehicle.

In some situations it shortens the braking distance but not always.

 

On loose surfaces when locked up wheel can dig in/pile up it increases braking distance, for example snow, sand or leaves.

 

Krzys

[fishbone]

Not true.

The forum thanks you for the informative post. Wait, there's no info! Did you post that in the interest of getting a smug feeling while contradicting someone? It is not constructive at all. Last I checked the two threads related, on this board, there were no updates to the projects. Remember, I said easily, safely AND cheap.

[apexjapan]

The ABS vs. no ABS in the snow is a bit of a hard argument at the moment because, well, it's hard to find a vehicle without ABS anymore. That's because it is darn useful in terms of vehicle control in the dry. But when it comes to snow and ice, ABS isn't exactly as useful. See, the ideal situation for braking a vehicle is threshold braking - keeping the brakes at the right pressure right before the traction threshold is broken. ABS doesn't do that, it pulses the brakes on and off to simulate that.

 

But in the dry, and usually in the wet, a good ABS system is still going to stop quicker and with control than 95% of the drivers. To say threshold braking is a lost art would imply that even a small percentage of drivers were good at it pre-ABS.

 

Where this becomes an argument against ABS is in the snow. ABS systems, while fantastic, pulse too fast for snow braking. So if you get to the point where the ABS kicks in on the snow and ice, well, it's not going to work effectively. This is where the human foot is a bit more sensitive towards threshold braking, as it's a lot easier to tell in snow. And no, you don't need to be a race driver to know it - it took me all of a week of my first major snowfall in Spokane to realize mashing the brakes just put me into the curb.

 

Of course, I was driving around in a little 73' Datsun 510 with semi-bald tires at that time. If I had been driving around in a modern Legacy with AWD and proper snow tires, I may not have been forced to learn the finer points of snow driving as much.

 

I can't advocate pulling the ABS fuse either, as others had mentioned, insurance reasons. But I will not claim ABS is better in snow.

 

Regards,

 

Paul Hansen

http://www.avoturboworld.com

[robinlsb]

The ABS vs. no ABS in the snow is a bit of a hard argument at the moment because, well, it's hard to find a vehicle without ABS anymore. That's because it is darn useful in terms of vehicle control in the dry. But when it comes to snow and ice, ABS isn't exactly as useful. See, the ideal situation for braking a vehicle is threshold braking - keeping the brakes at the right pressure right before the traction threshold is broken. ABS doesn't do that, it pulses the brakes on and off to simulate that.

 

But in the dry, and usually in the wet, a good ABS system is still going to stop quicker and with control than 95% of the drivers. To say threshold braking is a lost art would imply that even a small percentage of drivers were good at it pre-ABS.

 

Where this becomes an argument against ABS is in the snow. ABS systems, while fantastic, pulse too fast for snow braking. So if you get to the point where the ABS kicks in on the snow and ice, well, it's not going to work effectively. This is where the human foot is a bit more sensitive towards threshold braking, as it's a lot easier to tell in snow. And no, you don't need to be a race driver to know it - it took me all of a week of my first major snowfall in Spokane to realize mashing the brakes just put me into the curb.

 

Of course, I was driving around in a little 73' Datsun 510 with semi-bald tires at that time. If I had been driving around in a modern Legacy with AWD and proper snow tires, I may not have been forced to learn the finer points of snow driving as much.

 

I can't advocate pulling the ABS fuse either, as others had mentioned, insurance reasons. But I will not claim ABS is better in snow.

 

Regards,

 

Paul Hansen

http://www.avoturboworld.com

 

I agree with everything you say, with the exception of "pulse too fast" , at least in the 2005 LGT Wagon. In that case, the pulse is too slow.

 

Why was the pulse slow???????. Apparently, and I can't confirm this as an absolute fact for USDM, Australian drivers complained that the pulse was too fast, for driving on dirt roads. In dirt, or course, you need to get down through the light stuff, so you need a slow pulse.

 

All I can say is, after a couple of tests, I decided that either high quality snow tires were required, or self ejecting danforth anchors needed to be installed on my wagon

 

As for the 73 510, that was one heck of a car. I autoxed one that was the special sold by Bob Sharp motors. It was a blast.

[dmanaenk]

The forum thanks you for the informative post. Wait, there's no info! Did you post that in the interest of getting a smug feeling while contradicting someone? It is not constructive at all. Last I checked the two threads related, on this board, there were no updates to the projects. Remember, I said easily, safely AND cheap.

Does not get much cheaper than pulling the fuse or wiring a switch to the fuse. Everyone means different things when saying 'safely' so I'm not even gonna guess what you meant there.

[fishbone]

I remember now, it was actually your thread I was thinking back in. So after 84 posts, it turned out just pulling fuses disables it completely without the car registering it or complaining in any manner? Ebd, vdc and the whole thing? What were the complicated diagrams for?

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/disable-abs-rallyx-131757.html

[robinlsb]

The same stopping test conducted with and without ABS will prove that having ABS disabled LOWERS stopping distances.

 

A skidding tire produces more friction than a rolling tire. Simple. That, and the snow piling up in front of the tire help it stop faster.

 

This says nothing about retaining control. ABS will provide you with CONTROL, however stopping distances will be higher. That's all I'm trying to prove. I know it will throw an ABS fault light, I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about how awful my car stopped last winter even with snow tires.

 

Talk about an INTERNET fallacy:lol: A skidding tire ALWAYS produces less friction:lol: I guess that is why threshold braking is never used.

[rage557]

The same stopping test conducted with and without ABS will prove that having ABS disabled LOWERS stopping distances.

 

A skidding tire produces more friction than a rolling tire. Simple. That, and the snow piling up in front of the tire help it stop faster.

 

This says nothing about retaining control. ABS will provide you with CONTROL, however stopping distances will be higher. That's all I'm trying to prove. I know it will throw an ABS fault light, I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about how awful my car stopped last winter even with snow tires.

 

Ah no. The coefficient of static friction is always greater than that of kinetic friction.

 

http://www.hockeyphysics.com/uploads/2/7/2/6/2726311/2828822_orig.jpg

 

A higher coefficient means more friction.

[fishbone]

To add to what's already been said, if you squeeze the brakes on snow you start feeling the car holding back and slowing down. When your brakes lock up with lack of abs, you mean to tell me you've always felt the rate of deceleration INCREASE suddenly? Because to me it's always felt that the moment those wheels lock up, the rate of descent decreases, as in the car suddenly feels loose and as if I lifted off the brakes. The car gets into a skid and slides. This is because I'm paying attention to reality and not applying Internet logic in my head to create some placebo effect. And snow piling in front of the car ... also silly. First there needs to be a healthy dose of unpacked snow and not only that, but it's gotta be the heavy watery type, not fluffy fresh stuff. Snow ain't dirt, it takes a healthy amount to stop 3 thousand-some pounds of steel barreling down the road. I mean all the morons around us putting up with abs, how have they survived crashes all this time? Why dont car manufacturers include a "winter" switch for the abs system? Those assholes and their unsafe protocols.

Are we 16 and just got our licenses or what?

I've also heard that if you get into a skid, slam it into reverse and floor it.

[__raj]

RE960's are okay when new in winter and once worn are dreadful. I own a set on my WRX. Besides winter I absolutely love the tires.