recommended tires for canadian winter

[__raj]

After owning all sorts of them (Pure Winter studless Blizzack, Michelin), performance winters, budget winters and all-season winters (Nokian NRW, WR, WR G2) I would go on price that meets your budget. That is how I feel after 20 years of driving.

 

Winter driving conditions is the a small minority of drive time for majority of people. Having any sort of winter tire over an all-season is far superior in those occasional winter conditions. Good to research but no test can really replicate the real world were conditions are extremely variable.

[hadvw]

After owning all sorts of them (Pure Winter studless Blizzack, Michelin), performance winters, budget winters and all-season winters (Nokian NRW, WR, WR G2) I would go on price that meets your budget. That is how I feel after 20 years of driving.

 

I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I tried this when I bought my Corrado VR6. I found some cheap snows (205-50-15) that someone was getting rid of locally. Barely used (looked like a decent snow tire), and the price was right.

 

They absolutely SUCKED. In fact, this is the ONLY set of tires I have ever gotten rid of as a set that were not worn out (lots of tread left after one winter) - I think I sold them to a used tire place or something. I don't remember the make/model. They had the common "sipes" all over them.

 

The Pilot Alpins I got were better IN EVERY CONDITION I encountered than these "budget-friendly" snows. Maybe they were super ice tires? I dunno - I rarely drove on actual ice. I absolutely HATED those tires..

[TSiWRX]

Unfortunately, like hadvw said, tires are one place where "every penny counts" - and although there are some tires that hang on to the coveted king-of-the-hill position for two or even three seasons, this is now typically not the case, with "the latest and greatest" almost always rather easily displacing the best of the season before - with considerable quantifiable advantages.

 

"The latest and greatest," though, typically commands a price premium.

 

While this is not to say that previous seasons' "bests" are not anywhere near good enough and are not worth their cost - far from it, actually, as in many instances, they can be had for good discounts over the current perceived "best" , and the margin, in terms of performance differences, may actually not be that much, at all: I know this very well, look at my decision between the Nokian Hakka 7 and Pirelli WinterCarving studded tires, running in the "Sparco Drift?" thread on this very sub-Forum - it nevertheless does translate to a true line below which, well, performance is significantly degraded.

 

Whether the driver notices the difference, that's the question, and I think that's what __raj is getting at.

 

In-part, this is influenced by the conditions, which are, as he said, *highly* variable. This can well mean that, for whatever fluke, the conditions of the worst for that particular winter simply meets with, precisely, the strongest performance component of even a "lower-half" ranked tire.

 

Also in-part, as hadvw and I discussed above, is driver-capability and experience. If the driver simply knows to know better, and drives within the performance envelope of the tire, it can well be that the tires' weaknesses are never seen. Legions of NE-Ohio drivers, including many Subaru enthusiasts among them, are dedicated fans of the Hankook iPike and Firestone Winterforce, both of which consistently rank in the lower half of current winter tire tests - are they all wrong, or is it just that with experience and some extra caution, these tires are simply still so much more capable in the wintry stuff that none of their weaknesses manifest?

 

But if that's the case, then one also MUST take into account the "what ifs."

 

What if an emergency situation arose, which required 100% of the performance of the tire, the car, and the driver?

 

Would having saved one, ten, or even a hundred dollars per tire - in going from a highly endorsed tire to one which may not even be recommended, at all, by the testing authority - make up for that possibility?

 

And before anyone answers to that question, especially for those of us who are not bound by law to drive with winter tires in the winter season, ask yourselves if it is not for this same possibility that you're making and advocating the switch to winter tires in the first place?

 

In the end, that is something that is up to the individual end-user to decide, and outside of that specific individual's needs and wants, there are no truly right or wrong answers.

 

And yes, while I completely agree that no test can fully simulate the real-world (I am also deeply engaged in the hobby of speed-detection/enforcement and speed-detection countermeasures, where I advocate this exact same outlook: that quantitative data is important, but it's real-world on-the-road performance that counts, and just because the item is good in the lab doesn't necessarily mean it'll translate to outside that), it is important to realize that when broken down into the specifics of each sub-test, the data will have high relevancy to the highly variable real-world conditions that we see, also as discrete events.

 

With that in-mind, it should be realized that while it is cool to drive on that season's "best" tire, that "best" tire will have its own strengths and weaknesses - it may be stronger in terms of clear-roadway stability/tracking or wet-braking/handling or ice/compact snow or fresh unplowed powder, or it may be weaker in one or another of those specifics than a tire that came in "second" or "third" in that test (particularly remembering that many of these tests are weighed towards what the testers perceived was most important, for their target audience) - it would be better in all but that Intr4w3b bench-race or pint shared over the bar with your car-buddies that your chosen tire best meets your SPECIFIC desires and needs.

 

I'm not ashamed to say that my personal case is a prime example.

 

I'd love to send a picture to outahere, of me standing next to a stack of studded Hakka 7s that I just got for this winter. That's some good-natured one-upsmanship that, had our roles been reversed, I'd truly be just as happy to see on his LGT.

 

But the truth of it is that it'll cost me some $500-extra to pull off that bit of show-off, and I'm honestly not sure that I'd want to go that far. given how well the Pirelli WinterCarving did, *in specific sub-categories*, in the tests that we've been pulling comparative data from, versus that top-dog Nokian. $500 buys my 4-year-old quite a lot of toys and books.

[Sydtron]

Has anyone ran Falken Eurowinters? I'm looking toward these for winters in Maryland. Excluding last year, we don't receive much snow or ice so dry/wet cold performance is king in these parts. The Eurowinters apparently aren't great for snow/ice but are respectable in dry/wet...so, yeah, looking at buying those.

[98LGTLover]

^ I think there are some reviews for them on discounttiredirect.com

[TSiWRX]

NAF rated them dead last - wintry-weather performance is not their strength....

 

Certainly, Sydtron, typical Maryland weather, you'd more than likely be just fine - but then again, I'd bet that you'd do well on a set of more winter-capable all-seasons, too.

 

Honestly, for their price, I think you could do better. The V-rated Dunlop or Bridgestone "Performance Winter" choices would more than fit your needs, and not be priced too differently.

[outahere]

".........For instance, even with the current loose definition [of a winter tire], not all winter tires are equal.

 

Toyo Tire & Rubber Co. engineers, for example, consider winter tires based on the geographic region of origin.

 

According to Mamoru Yamamoto, tire technical service department manager for Toyo, there are distinct winter tire types sold into the North American market. There are easily discernable physical differences – tread and shoulder shape and tread patterns in particular – and less visible differences demanded by prevailing weather.

 

There is a Scandinavian type that is tuned to the harsh climate and snow/ice roads of that region, Yama moto points out. European-type winter tires are more about wet traction and higher road speeds with only occasional snow and low temperatures. Japan/ Asia winter tires have to address heavy, packed snow but not sub-arctic temperatures.

 

North America tends to see all three types, thanks to its broad geography, average winter temperatures that run from 0˚F to 32˚F, and varying degrees of snow removal. Yamamoto points out, though, without understanding the prevalent weather conditions, road surface care and even driver attitude, dealers could be misapplying winter treads on customer cars.

 

Large, global tiremakers tailor their winter tire offerings to the specific conditions of individual markets, he notes, but tires from smaller companies may be tuned only to their home market conditions. Bottom line: Not all winter tires are alike......"

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/75478/with_changing_technology_oe_focus_do_old_winter_tire_standards_need_updating.aspx

[mattg]

My winter conditions consist of mostly fresh and packed snow (cold and low humidity) and both sets of winter tires I've run on the LGT have done pretty well in these conditions.

 

Hankook IceBear W300's & Yokohama IceGuard IG 721, both 225/45-17. IceBears were more toward the performance end of the spectrum and 721's were more of a down and dirty snow and ice tire.

 

The scariest moments I have driving in winters are driving in and changing lanes in slush, which is why my plan this year was to go w/ the Altimax Arctics in 205/50-17. The reviews seem very positive and Tire Rack has them for $99 ea. I will be running them sans studs. Thoughts?

[outahere]

..........The scariest moments I have driving in winters are driving in and changing lanes in slush, which is why my plan this year was to go w/ the Altimax Arctics in 205/50-17. The reviews seem very positive and Tire Rack has them for $99 ea. I will be running them sans studs. Thoughts?

 

The Goodyear Ice Navi Zea had the best slush performance in the last round of Scandinavian tests. You could look for a north American tire with a similar tread pattern, keeping in mind that will not guarantee equal performance on slush. I haven't seen any slush tests of the Altimax.

 

http://eu.goodyear.com/se_se/tires/repository/Copy_of_UltraGripIceNaviNeo/index.jsp

[TSiWRX]

Toyo Tire & Rubber Co. engineers, for example, consider winter tires based on the geographic region of origin.

 

When the engineers speak, I listen, period -

 

For a layman like me, the truth of the matter is that tire-engineering is equal part hard science and black magic.

 

Really, that again just goes to show that it's all about matching the right tires to one's specific conditions/needs.

 

 

----

 

 

mattg, sadly, first of all, I honestly don't know.

 

Second, I am also somewhat skeptical of basing decisions on "public opinion polls." Again, as an example, I point to the Michelin Xi2's introduction in the winter of 2008: reading the consumer reviews from TireRack that winter, you'd swear that it was the worst winter tire made, people were criticizing it left and right - fast forward to the winter of 2009, and suddenly, it's a friggin' 180-degree flip, as people start to cue-in on various European tests' claims of this tire's dominance.

 

I tend to listen much more closely to my local enthusiasts as well as expert-hobbyists like outahere, when it comes to things like this. At least, in this manner, I know who is making the recommendation: what his/her level of experience happens to be, and how what he or she says of the tires I'm looking at may or may not translate to conditions which I will see, specifically, on my drives.

 

FWIW, I've also felt slush-planing to be a less-than-desirable, with my 3Ds - a factor that was particularly sensitive to inflation pressures. Pushing through with an easy lane-change was just fine, but more aggressive angles produced anything from a simply unsettling feeling of disconnect with the roadway to actually reproducing what happens to these tires when too much speed is carried into corners: you plow/slide wide. This phenomenon was reported from several of my locals driving higher powered STIs, too. On the flip side, those driving the Arctics were quite satisfied with the slush/loose-snow handling: but those drivers also tended to be more conservative drivers, overall, so it's hard to judge.

[dmanaenk]

Second, I am also somewhat skeptical of basing decisions on "public opinion polls."

That's why one should disregard tirerack ratings and go read reviews of people with 'spirited driving' and look for cars similar to the one you're driving. Or track/autox reviews for summer tires. Still not perfect, but much better info than straight rating.

[TSiWRX]

^ The "not perfect" part is what I'm worried about.

 

Virtually everyone who even remotely thinks that they're "car guys/girls" will say that they drive in a "spirited" manner.

 

And besides, who's to say that my "spirited" is the same as your "spirited?"

 

My worry is that I don't "know" these people. And yes, I agree, trying to find similarities via the filters will help - as will breaking down the ratings from their "straight rankings" to the sub-categories of performance - but it's still leaving a lot of unknowns.

 

With my locals, I know who they are: I know their experience level, I know their driving habits, I know why they recommend the items that they do, and I can then fairly "weigh" their opinions and recommendations.

 

Same with people I know from this Forum and other such communities.

[isitsuby]

Thanks for all the discussions guys. It seems my list now is down to: X-Ice Xi2 is Michelin Blizzak WS70 is Bridgestone

[outahere]

..........reading the consumer reviews from TireRack that winter, you'd swear that it was the worst winter tire made, people were criticizing it left and right -............

 

I remember one reviewer complaining he/she got stuck in the iced-up drive thru lane at McDonalds with their new Xi2 tires.

[TSiWRX]

^ Dude, I can't even imagine how that happened..... Did she forget to inflate the tires? Even then, the rims should've carried her...

 

Hell, I "tested" Sara's Xi2s when they were new - definitely NOT the way to test tires, of-course - on ice, and even then, with barely a couple of miles on them, they still definitively trounced my 3Ds in straight-line acceleration and braking.

 

I can't imagine what that reviewer's McD's driveway must've been like, for him/her to have gotten stuck. Glare ice at a 45-degree angle? driving an M3 or IS-F?

 

Seriously, this winter, we went out in what was perhaps the worst storm of the season so that we would not miss my nephew's first birthday party. The storm had subsided, but the majority of the secondary streets had yet to be plowed. The snow was up to my crotch (I'm about 6'-even). I missed the turn-off because Sara mis-navigated (no biggie, I'm good at making U-turns), and I purposely plowed her '09 FXT into a totally unplowed school (it was a Saturday) driveway.

 

Sara can tell you that I didn't even slow down. It was a bit of slow-speed fun for all.

[hadvw]

A friend got stuck for quite some time on an iced-over university parking lot in his '9x V6 auto Mustang. He said it took him many minutes to leave. I believe he had snow tires, and he had probably 10+ winters of driving behind him at that point..

 

It CAN happen. Freezing rain is a BITCH.

[dmanaenk]

auto+1wheeldrive=fail.

[TSiWRX]

A friend got stuck for quite some time on an iced-over university parking lot in his '9x V6 auto Mustang. He said it took him many minutes to leave. I believe he had snow tires, and he had probably 10+ winters of driving behind him at that point..

 

It CAN happen.

 

^ Like dmanaenk said.

 

But yes, anything can happen - what outahere and I were trying to illustrate, though, is just how easily swayed public perception can be.

 

Also, in the specific case of your friend, there's the variable of "snow tire" - not all winter tires are created equal: the 3Ds that I'm riding on now present a very good example, there...it's supposedly among the best in its sub-genre in icier conditions, but really, does that get me anywhere? That's why matching the right tires to the right conditions/driving needs is critical, and why "overall" rankings/ratings mean rather little, and is better reserved for our academic debates and benchracing one-upmanship.

 

Freezing rain is a BITCH.

 

^ Absolutely. It always causes havoc, and even if you're equipped with the best tires for such conditions, there's still all the other traffic around you (including people falling on the sidewalk and out onto the street!) to look out for.

 

No matter what we do, we're at the mercy of Mother Nature. When she wants to be a bitch, we're all doomed.

 

Sure, having some great tires along with our AWD can mean the difference between go and no-go, but still, anything *can* happen, and it does us all well, in this community, to remember that even Click and Clack, traditionally Subaru lovers, are fond of citing "Subris."