recommended tires for canadian winter

[Stock_Sucks]

I had nokians on my maxima that I wrapped around a street light last winter. That is how I ended up with the Legacy. I wanted tires that had deeper tread that would evacuate deep snow and slush realy easily. Otherwise I would have gotten blizzacs. But they don't do deep snow and slush so well.

[Scooby Fan]

They sure do on Subarus...........if you can drive?

[vinnig]

Consumer Report reccommends General Altimax Arctic as a 'best buy'. Have them on a 2009 Impreza for one Alberta winter with zero problems and they're available at CT.

[TSiWRX]

I had nokians on my maxima that I wrapped around a street light last winter. That is how I ended up with the Legacy. I wanted tires that had deeper tread that would evacuate deep snow and slush realy easily. Otherwise I would have gotten blizzacs. But they don't do deep snow and slush so well.

 

^ You're being very, very generalized - too generalized.

 

Which Nokians? The WR/WR G2? or are you talking about the Hakka R or even a studded Hakka variant?

 

Similarly, when you say Blizzaks. They also run the gamut from "Performance Winters" to "Studless Ice & Snows," with very, very different performance capabilities.

 

Will the Blizzak WS60 out-shine the Nokian WR G2 in deeper snow and on icier surfaces? You bet. But at the same time, a set of studded Nokian Hakka 5s will rip circles around a set of Blizzak LM25s when there's glare ice.

 

The fundamental difference is not which tire brand/make you choose - rather, the more important thing is to match your specific performance wants and needs to the specific sub-genre of tire (studded, studless ice & snow, performance winter, or even a "winter capable all-season").

 

[krzyss]

Nokian WR G2.......we run them on the LGT and Impreza......end of story:wub::wub:

 

These are the only all seasons that got snowflake symbol but they are all seasons.

They are usually tested with high perfomance winter tires and end up in lower half during testing.

 

They do not rock on ice.

 

If one is looking for dedicated winter tires there are better choices. Especially for the price (at least in the USA).

 

Krzys

[98LGTLover]

tiremonkey.com has some good tires on it. I am thinking about running the General Altimax Arctic this winter or the Hankook iPike W409. Many people use them here in Sandpoint, ID (about 60 miles from the Canadian boarder). People also use the Toyo Observe studless snow tire a lot here.

 

I've never had snow tires before so I can't speak from experience about any tire.

[hadvw]

The best snow tire I had in 13-14 winters in Ontario were Michelin Pilot Alpins. Took 'em winter rallying, ran great on the highway, and GREAT wear. Would definitely buy again if I needed them again. Currently living in NorCal, so no real need for dedicated snows (have Pilot Sport A/S).

[ruggerheist]

The best snow tire I had in 13-14 winters in Ontario were Michelin Pilot Alpins. Took 'em winter rallying, ran great on the highway, and GREAT wear. Would definitely buy again if I needed them again. Currently living in NorCal, so no real need for dedicated snows (have Pilot Sport A/S).

 

also looking for a winter tire that will get me where i need to go in the snow months but can also perform on highway as well. Im in southeastern PA last winter was a good, hard one but i had a saab then that did pretty well, generally snowfall is average at best(12-24" sometimes more, generally doesnt accumulate more than 3-4" at a time) but occasionally does get heavy, usually have to deal with slush more than anything. ice is a problem for night driving. would those michelins be overkill?

[TSiWRX]

also looking for a winter tire that will get me where i need to go in the snow months but can also perform on highway as well. Im in southeastern PA last winter was a good, hard one but i had a saab then that did pretty well, generally snowfall is average at best(12-24" sometimes more, generally doesnt accumulate more than 3-4" at a time) but occasionally does get heavy, usually have to deal with slush more than anything. ice is a problem for night driving. would those michelins be overkill?

 

^ Again, you need to make that hard, but fundamental, decision - what do you want, and what compromises are acceptable, for you.

 

And I think that by reading the words of my two fellow LegacyGT.com brothers, you'll understand what I mean:

 

This highlights a fundamental choice winter tire buyers need to make. Do you want a tire that will meet the challenges of the worst winter conditions you will encounter (e.g. deep snow or ice) or do you want a tire that will meet the "challenges" of the best winter conditions you will encounter (e.g cold dry pavement).

 

So it goes back to outahere's comment about what conditions you're preparing for: the worst, or the most common. If it's the latter, winter on the Front Range calls for all-seasons about 75% of the time. But that other 25% can be dicey.

 

It's a trade-off, and you'll have to find where, along that line, you're most comfortable.

 

If you want accurate tracking on the highways, good turn-in feel, etc., a "Performance Winter" is going to best fit your needs - but it will be compromised in terms of deeper snow and packed-snow, and it's still going to be somewhat of a white-knuckler, when conditions get icy (the Michelin PA3s typically come in mid-pack, when rated in comparison to other Performance Winters, and the same can be said of its "ice" performance, for which the Dunlop SP WinterSport 3D typically gets the highest marks: but again, even then, as many of us "Performance Winter" users can well tell you, ice is not the strength of this particular sub-genre of tires).

 

To get more sure footing on icier surfaces, as well as both in deeper fluff and compacted snow, the "Studless Ice & Snow" genre will much better fit the bill, but you will experience more "wandering" at-speed, and whereas a V-rated "Performance Winter" may feel all but the same as a good all-season tire during the transition seasons, even the best modern premium "Studless Ice & Snow" tire will make you feel like you're driving on tires with sidewalls made of foam mountains.

 

You've got to make a decision about which side of the fence you're more comfortable being on, and it's a call that only you can make.

 

 

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But in getting back to your question: will those Michelins be overkill?

 

Not at all. If anything, I'd say that they are actually somewhat under-qualified, for your needs, if your statement about ice has any bearing on your driving habits (i.e. that you must travel during the off-hours, at night).

 

In terms of the snow and slush? It'll be just fine, I'm sure - but they are definitely not the only game in town, especially when price is factored into the equation.

[ruggerheist]

good deal, i dont really want an all out performance winter since i do drive more conservatively when conditions get sketchy. as far as ice goes ive been born and raised in snow and have been driving in it since i could drive so i know what to look for and how to handle it. so maybe the michelins would be a good investment. thanks for the feedback tsi

[dmanaenk]

Any one how cares about ice traction should not buy hankooks w409 or Altimax.

Both have similar (or ripped-off) thread design to top-brand winter tires of the past, which gives them decent deep snow traction. That's about it. Their tire compounds are a decade old technology at best (if the Altimax is indeed a re-badged gislaved, not just a copy of the thread design), and proprietary crap at worst.

 

I have personally driven both w409 (shortly after driving RSi's, the tire they ripped the desing off) and Altimax. They both suck on ice/packed snow.

 

Of-course 'suck' here is relative, and they are probably still better than some random 'tripple thread' junk.

 

I'd suggest sourcing a decent tire like Xi2, R's, some winter Conti's, or ws70.

[hadvw]

good deal, i dont really want an all out performance winter since i do drive more conservatively when conditions get sketchy. as far as ice goes ive been born and raised in snow and have been driving in it since i could drive so i know what to look for and how to handle it. so maybe the michelins would be a good investment. thanks for the feedback tsi

 

btw, if you do go for the michelins, the ones I recommend are the Pilot Alpins, not the plain Alpins. IMHO, the plain Alpins were an ok snow tire, but not that great.

 

I felt quite comfortable with the Pilot Alpins during deep snow (I drove through 15 or so Canadian winters, around 13 with my own car). And they had GREAT wear on the highway - I got around 35K+ miles on a set. I even "nursed" them through the last Ontario winter almost at the wear bars (because I knew I was moving to California, and didn't want to buy new tires for one more winter) and they still gripped quite well.

 

Then again, the Pilot Alpins are NOT cheap..

[ruggerheist]

im seeing pa2 and pa3 pilots also an xl thrown in there...

[TSiWRX]

good deal, i dont really want an all out performance winter since i do drive more conservatively when conditions get sketchy. as far as ice goes ive been born and raised in snow and have been driving in it since i could drive so i know what to look for and how to handle it. so maybe the michelins would be a good investment. thanks for the feedback tsi

 

RE: Ice -

As long as you know what to expect (i.e. side-street intersections, weather conditions that brings about icing, etc.), you'll be OK.

 

RE: -

...i dont really want an all out performance winter since i do drive more conservatively when conditions get sketchy....so maybe the michelins would be a good investment.

 

^ Something there is not making sense.

 

You said you don't want a "Performance Winter," but yet, you seem to be hung-up on the Michelin PA3s, which are categorized as a "Performance Winter."

 

 

A "Performance Winter" isn't about how aggressively you drive in wintry precip. Rather, it defines a sub-category of winter tire which gives you compromised winter-weather traction, in-favor of better highway manners as well as overall performance, during warmer/transitional-season weather, reflective of a good all-season tire.

 

If better winter-weather traction is what you're looking for, then you may need to step up to the "Studless Ice & Snow" sub-genre. However, these tires will compromise a bit of highway manners and warmer-weather manners/wear, when compared to the previous.

 

In the absolute worst winter weather possible, a conservative driver with "Performance Winters" will "make it by," versus on "Studless Ice & Snows," which will considerably enlarge the safety envelope.

[ruggerheist]

RE: Ice -

 

A "Performance Winter" isn't about how aggressively you drive in wintry precip. Rather, it defines a sub-category of winter tire which gives you compromised winter-weather traction, in-favor of better highway manners as well as overall performance, during warmer/transitional-season weather, reflective of a good all-season tire.

 

 

see, thats why i like forums:lol:

 

thanks duder

[krzyss]

im seeing pa2 and pa3 pilots also an xl thrown in there...

 

Nowadays there are Michelin:

Pilot Alpin PA2

Pilot Alpin PA3

Primacy Alpin PA3

X-Ice

X-Ice Xi2

 

With PA3 being the most performance oriented and X-Ice (and Xi2) the least.

 

Krzys

[ruggerheist]

an ill assume x-ice is better for worse conditions

[krzyss]

Xi2 replaced (I believe) regular X-Ice.

Yes, X-Ice is better suited for ice.

As far as deep snow I think you will hit ground clearance issues with Legacy before reaching limits of any winter tires.

 

Krzys

[dmanaenk]

It's not really about being able to get moving - it's being able to stop on the snow. In the snow LGT ABS will go crazy and you'll need all the grip you can get to stop sooner. So if I was driving in snow 30% of the time I would not go for Xi2, those are more like city tires with emphasis on ice traction.

 

And yes, I'm on Xi2 this&last winter.

[TSiWRX]

see, thats why i like forums:lol:

 

thanks duder

 

NP. Just wanted to make sure you were heading in the right direction.

 

 

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Xi2 replaced (I believe) regular X-Ice.

 

^ That's my understanding as well - that in the most popular sizes, the Xi2 has replaced the standard "X-Ice." In other markets, there's also the Xi2 Nord, etc., which further sub-divides this specific tire.

 

Think of the "X-Ice" part, ruggerheist, as a trade-name, kinda like how Bridgestone uses the term "Blizzak." Without getting more specific, it really doesn't say anything - for example, the WS70/60 of the "Studless Ice & Snow" sub-genre is totally different from the LM-series of "Performance Winters," and of the LMs, the LM60 is much more "wintry" oriented than the LM25/22 series, which is more "performance" oriented.

 

You can't just go in to McD's and ask for a "hamburger," can you? Same idea here.

 

Yes, X-Ice is better suited for ice.

Agreed - the "Studless Ice & Snows" are noticeably better on icier ground - as well as on compacted snow - than their "Performance Winter" counterparts.

 

But, ruggerheist, remember what I said before - as well as what you, yourself, said before of your driving preferences/practices - with that gain in more "wintry-weather/precip." performance, you'll be trading off both highway stability as well as clear-road performance.

 

And just as the "Studless Ice & Snows" are noticeably better under the harsher winter conditions than the 'Performance Winters," they'll also be just as noticeably less accurate in tracking on the highway and in their clear-road performance.

 

As far as deep snow I think you will hit ground clearance issues with Legacy before reaching limits of any winter tires.

Absolutely agreed.

 

 

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It's not really about being able to get moving - it's being able to stop on the snow. In the snow LGT ABS will go crazy and you'll need all the grip you can get to stop sooner.

 

Again, absolutely agree - stopping (and being able to maneuver, too, of course) is the biggest priority.

 

But as an absolute, forward-going capability will depend on the car not being high-centered, like krzyss said, more than how much traction the tires can provide to get going, under such conditions.

 

So if I was driving in snow 30% of the time I would not go for Xi2, those are more like city tires with emphasis on ice traction.

Xi2 as compared to the PA3 (or other "Performance Winters" specific to the Michelin brand)?

 

I most certainly do not agree:

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests

 

This one of the few cross-genre (UHPAS/All-Season/Performance Winter/Studless Ice & Snow) comparisons out there, and luckily, it directly impacts this discussion - the Xi2 clearly overwhelms the PA3 when it comes to snow performance, and even from external examination only, it's clear why - the tread-pattern as well as tread-depth of the Xi2 is much more optimized for moving snow as well as for moving on snow.

 

To me, the determinant between "Performance Winter" and "Studless Ice & Snow" comes not in snowy or icy weather perofrmance - both of which clearly will favor the "Studless Ice & Snow" - but rather, it should be a split in the decision tree based on the perceived value of clear-road and highway driving to the end-user.

[ruggerheist]

im thinking PA3 at this point just for the fact that if there is snow around here (which there is, just not high accumulations except for the rare 1 or 2 a season dumps) itll mostly be slush during the day icing over at night

[dmanaenk]

Xi2 as compared to the PA3 (or other "Performance Winters" specific to the Michelin brand)?

Of course not. As compared to other 'stud-less ice&snow' tires, with better snow traction. Like Hakka Rs.

[TSiWRX]

im thinking PA3 at this point just for the fact that if there is snow around here (which there is, just not high accumulations except for the rare 1 or 2 a season dumps) itll mostly be slush during the day icing over at night

 

^ As long as you can be careful overnight and at day-break (or you simply don't travel, then) - i.e. that you know when/where the ice will be - you should be fine. That's typically what I see here in metro-NE-Ohio, too.

 

I know cost is a factor, but you might want to cross-shop the Nokian WR and WR-G2 - in the slush, they're very, very effective.

 

Another potential negative of the Nokians is treadwear - most reviews show them to not fare as well, in this regard, as their chief V-rated "Performance Winter" counterparts...however, my locals, who've *NEVER* steered me wrong, shows completely opposing data to such test results, with excellent treadwear.

 

 

 

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Of course not. As compared to other 'stud-less ice&snow' tires, with better snow traction. Like Hakka Rs.

 

Ah, now that makes more sense.

[hadvw]

Xi2 as compared to the PA3 (or other "Performance Winters" specific to the Michelin brand)?

 

I most certainly do not agree:

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests

 

This one of the few cross-genre (Summer/All-Season/Performance Winter/Studless Ice & Snow) comparisons out there, and luckily, it directly impacts this discussion - the Xi2 clearly overwhelms the PA3 when it comes to snow performance, and even from external examination only, it's clear why - the tread-pattern as well as tread-depth of the Xi2 is much more optimized for moving snow as well as for moving on snow.

 

 

Thanks for the link. Quite interesting, as I've driven 3 of the 4 tires tested. Currently driving Pilot Sport A/S on the LGT (sees snow 1-2 times a year if we decided to "go to the snow"..). MXM4 on the Grand Caravan (which is what we took to the snow last year). And I think I had PA2 or PA3 (whatever the generic "Pilot Alpin" was in 205-50-15 about 7 years ago). Even in Ontario (K-W), never felt the need for an "ice" tire - just didn't see ice that often.. Pilot Alpin + Quaife + ABS + PSS9s raised up was a pretty good combo for winter rallying.. If only my power steering pump had help up :-(.

 

A little disappointed that the Pilot Sport A/S is "bad" in snow, but not totally surprised. I had nearly bald RE92s in the snow once, and THAT was scary.. We actually took the Grand Caravan to the snow last year to have more room for "stuff". Given the overall weight, and newer tread, it might be the better snow-capable car now anyway (the PS A/S have 20k miles on them now, looks like I'll get another 10-15k, the GC has only ~5k on the MXM4s).

[TSiWRX]

It's a very, very interesting read - very few tests have direct cross-over-genre data, in making the initial assumption that the consumer would choose the right sub-genre.

 

I personally think that to make such an assumption is too much already: for the vast majority of consumers today, the switch to "winter tires" is still something new and novel.

 

I truly think that the most difficult aspect of the purchase comes from that initial foray into the "winter tire" genre: that after a couple of seasons with a few different sub-genres of "winter tires," their inherent differences then start to become more easily interpreted by the end-user, who will thus hopefully be able to make a better choice.

 

 

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hadvw, I think that your experience brings forward the other critical component that needs to be examined - driver capability/experience.

 

Even the best "winter tire" most appropriate for the conditions will not help, as much, a driver who simply has no experience with such conditions, and still overdrives the tire's capabilities and the system's safety boundaries.

 

When I first came to Cleveland was a great example. In having learned driving in Atlanta, Georgia, snow that stuck to the roadways was a once-in-a-winter thing, and even then, it was typically a dusting that disappeared after an hour or two, or an inch or two that did the same after a day's sunshine. Ice was as rare as rare can get.

 

When I first moved up here, my wife - then girlfriend - would constantly yell at me to slow down, and I'd also constantly find myself performing heroics (honestly, it was just getting lucky! there was no heroic skills involved! ) to avoid situations.

 

Yet, my wife, the native Clevelander? She was almost always just fine.

 

So many here, like you said, absolutely detest the RE92s, but really, as with you, it was only as they were getting down to being unreasonably worn that they started to make both myself (then with 10 years or so of Cleveland winters under my belt: i.e. I now better, and have slowed-down drastically, under such conditions, winter tires or no ) and my wife uncomfortable.

 

I think that driver skill/experience, as well as even expectations, plays a lot to this, too.

 

 

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Noticed an error in my earlier posting - in the quoted segment. I should not have said "Summer," rather, I should have said UHPAS, and AS. I ninja-edited the previous post.