Guest turboman Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 One of these days a GT-MT is going to stall, because of that stupid CDV, in the wrong place at the wrong time and a couple cars full of people are gonna get killed. There is more than enough info in this forum that any attorney would win one helluva settlement for negligence by Subaru. The way courts have been going we're talking in the $50-75,000,000+ area. (READ THAT, SUBARU). More than once I've stalled at a stoplight and only luck kept the car behind me from reasonably assuming I was going to move, and plow into my rear end. If there's a stoplight on a steep slope it's gotten to the point where I use the e-brake to assist starting up. Never had to that before! And I've been driving stick shifts for 50 years in roughly 35 new cars between my wife and I. Taught her to drive a stick to. She doesn't want to drive the Legacy any more. I can't blame her. She has a PT Cruiser with a 5 speed and loves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCDetails Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 If it is that much of a concern then you should sell it and mitigate your damages by getting out of it before it "kills someone". You don't have to drive it if you don't like it. 35 cars in 50 years means that you don't keep them long anyway. Time to move on to another car. _________________________________________ “Cleanliness becomes more important as godliness becomes more unlikely.” O C D E T A I L S . C O M OCDETAILS BLOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest turboman Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 If it is that much of a concern then you should sell it and mitigate your damages by getting out of it before it "kills someone". You don't have to drive it if you don't like it. 35 cars in 50 years means that you don't keep them long anyway. Time to move on to another car. Some of us enjoy driving, and some of us get their kicks from making it look "pretty". Put me in the "enjoys driving" category. The GT has a lot of potential and it handles superbly. We don't drive much in the city or in heavy traffic. If I did I would get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eamiller Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 I think you need to learn to drive a car with a really quick clutch to appreciate the Legacy.. The only time I've stalled it is when I wasn't paying attention and let the clutch out too abruptly.. Beyond that, I think the Legacy has one of the best factory clutches ever; low, quick, and strong while still being easy to modulate.. Go drive an Acura TL 6-speed to gain a new perspective on a bad clutch. Then again, maybe yours has a problem.. Perhaps you should take it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domain Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Huh? I'm going to have to agree with eamiller on this one... Of the few times i've stalled this car, it has always been due to my own lack of attention. Does that mean a problem doesn't exist? No... but of the three GT's i've driven, none has even given me a hint of difficulty. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised during my first test drive of how seamless the clutch mechanism on this car felt. Anyway, from all the posts i've read on this issue, i'm left to belive it is one of two issues... either there exists a *small* number of GT's with significant clutch problems/malfunctions - or - the problem lies somewhere between the clutch and the driver's seat. ----- Domain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest turboman Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Huh? I'm going to have to agree with eamiller on this one... Of the few times i've stalled this car, it has always been due to my own lack of attention. Does that mean a problem doesn't exist? No... but of the three GT's i've driven, none has even given me a hint of difficulty. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised during my first test drive of how seamless the clutch mechanism on this car felt. Anyway, from all the posts i've read on this issue, i'm left to belive it is one of two issues... either there exists a *small* number of GT's with significant clutch problems/malfunctions - or - the problem lies somewhere between the clutch and the driver's seat. ----- Domain Manufacturing wise, the cars all use the same components and the same jigs/fixtures are used to assemble it. Robots do a lot of the work. The fabled "Monday morning lemons" of years past are gone. In my view you can't have a "few" bad clutches coming off the assembly line. They all should be the same. (based on 20 years in automotive engineering and production supervision) If there is anything different it's in the transporting to the dealership (piggy-back trucking, or driving from another dealer) and if it used as a "demo" for customers. Mine had 175 miles on the odo. Who knows if it was abused. Very insightful comment about, "The only difference being between the pedal and the knee". However, you have to understand that this many people are NOT out of their heads. Probably only 1 in 25 Legacy owners read this forum. For every complaint published there's another unknown number of people with the same problem. Readers of this forum are the "Cream of the Crop", the "enthusiasts". If you haven't experienced it, more power to you. I wish I were you. This is NOT a life changing epiphany for me. Got too many other hobbies to anquish over this one. Life is too short... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 A manufacturer doesn't build a car as if Michael Shumacher were driving it. They build it for the average driver. My dealer has told me they have quite a few non-enthusiast owners who have issues and are concerned about being stranded at an inopportune time in an intersection, due to the CDV kicking in. Sure, if you drive the car 'perfectly', there probably wouldn't be any issue. What car do you know requires you to be a perfect driver in order to do the basics? Forget track time, I am talking real world use here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05LegacyGT330Ci Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Whoever said this is the best factory clutch out there ever is absolutely insane. The clutch provides almost no feedback at all and it is too light. It feels like your not even using your left foot most the time which can get you in trouble. '05 Black Legacy GT Wagon 5-spd '02 Topaz/Black 330Ci 5-spd Drift Ryder's School of Rally Arts, coming to an Australia near you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback XT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 A manufacturer doesn't build a car as if Michael Shumacher were driving it. They build it for the average driver. My dealer has told me they have quite a few non-enthusiast owners who have issues and are concerned about being stranded at an inopportune time in an intersection, due to the CDV kicking in. Sure, if you drive the car 'perfectly', there probably wouldn't be any issue. What car do you know requires you to be a perfect driver in order to do the basics? Forget track time, I am talking real world use here. Amen to that. I have had this happen with spirited driving and cautious driving. And as one who has been left stranded in an intersection with the engine bouncing off the rev limiter, this is something that can be deadly. One of the times it happened to me was taking off at a light on a steep hill - I was reving a bit around 2,000 when I took off. I've driven many cars with sticks before without this kind of problem. My last car was a 1.8t Jetta that had a clutch made for base engine with only 110hp. Rated stock at 180, mine was pumping out around 240 ponies and 260 ft./lbs. of torque after mods. I always waited for that clutch to explode and I did abuse it a bit. But never, ever did it slip or leave me in an intersection. I would like to know for sure if we really have a CDV or not. It seems unclear from what I've read. One of the guys with similar issues to mine had his clutch replaced and reports no problems since. He said that the master tech even commented on how 'beefy' our clutches are. Surely they are beefier than my old Jetta's clutch. If that is true, I believe the problem still is in the fabled CDV. Whatever the issue, this is more than a bad smell. It is an accident waiting to happen. I still need to write SOA to complain. I guess I better get that done quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADirtyLegacy Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 not to poo-poo on the parade here, but what does the CDV do? just trying to understand and learn!! Kenda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe05GTMT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 I've also had the 'stuck-in-intersection-red-line' experience. For me the pedal only came half way up and only returned to normal after pushing the pedal back to the floor and releasing it again at idle. Extremely dangerous in my opinion. Kenda: The CDV = Clutch-Delay-Valve; there have been a number of posts about this and a lot of them focusing on a "clutch damper valve" that is described as isolating vibrations from the pedal. There is some debate if the Legacy GT actually had a CDV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADirtyLegacy Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 so basically you start to take off and the clutch "hangs up" as you come off of it? that doesn't sound very cool! Kenda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 The CDV is 'clutch delay valve' - it's there as a safeguard to protect against driveline shock. Too much power dropped onto the transmission abruptly will cause the valve to kick in and the clutch will not engage. This is there to protect SOA against warranty claims for broken transmissons due to people abusing the cars. The problem with our cars is that the CDV is a bit too sensitive. I have revved to about 3000 to keep from bogging the motor when trying to get out in front of someone at a stoplight (to make a turn) and slipped the clutch a little too much......the CDV kicks in and the motor revs and you go nowhere. Given the high torque and HP rating of the motor, one can almost understand having a failsafe built-in to protect against an expensive repair. But, responsible BMW drivers have been removing their CDV with no apparent long-term issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback XT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Do we know for sure that we have a CDV? Where it is located? And how do we go about removing it? I have heard speculation in other threads but to my knowledge no one has done this yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Burn the clutch! Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Do we know for sure that we have a CDV? Where it is located? And how do we go about removing it? I have heard speculation in other threads but to my knowledge no one has done this yet. Yes, it's on the 'operating cylinder'. So far, no one has removed it yet, AFAIK. PM me your email and I can send you the diagram and a pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Sorry, but I have never had a problem with the CDV impacting my driving, up to and including launches of a vigor sufficient to chirp all four tires. I don't consider myself a perfect manual driver, either. I've only stalled the car once, backing into my garage after letting the revs get too low, which was my own stupid fault. Put me down in the "it's between the clutch pedal and the knee" camp. Would some CDV valves be more active than others? Mine is a second allocation car and has, to date, been brilliant. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 How tall are you Kevin? I think this may be an issue which plays a role. The clutch engages far up on the travel....it might be caused by those of us who are taller having a harder time getting to the engage point cleanly. Just a thought, as it seems so random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outback XT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Yes, it's on the 'operating cylinder'. So far, no one has removed it yet, AFAIK. PM me your email and I can send you the diagram and a pic. If it's in the vacation pix, just let me know where as I have them myself. Edit: Is it on CL15? All that shows is the part. Do you have a further breakdown of the part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt_ltd Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 why don't you sue SOA or just sell the car? bitching here won't get anything fixed! This Space For Rent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTM 525 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 I've had no problems with the clutch. I have let this thing fly at as much as 5K out of the gate and no CDV intervention. I slip it a tad bit for the first few feet letting it go altogether shortly thereafter and i'm out. Maybe a complete "dump" at anything over 4K and the CDV would rear it's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 I've had no problems with the clutch. I have let this thing fly at as much as 5K out of the gate and no CDV intervention. I slip it a tad bit for the first few feet letting it go altogether shortly thereafter and i'm out. Maybe a complete "dump" at anything over 4K and the CDV would rear it's head. A clutch slip at 2500-4500 seems to be the way to engage it. You would think sidestepping the clutch would too, but I have no reason ever to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eamiller Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 why don't you sue SOA or just sell the car? bitching here won't get anything fixed! Yea, sue.. great idea.. I'm attaching the picture of the clutch system from the FACTORY MANUAL.. I'm at a loss as to where this supposed "CDV" is.. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt_ltd Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Gotta do it the American way! This Space For Rent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCDetails Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Some of us enjoy driving, and some of us get their kicks from making it look "pretty". Put me in the "enjoys driving" category. The GT has a lot of potential and it handles superbly. We don't drive much in the city or in heavy traffic. If I did I would get rid of it. I think you are just jealous that I know how to drive my uphill from a stoplight and it looks pretty while I do it. Vent your inability to drive a clutch to Subaru. What do you expect us to do about it? Seriously, if you feel that it is this much of a problem then you should get a mechanic who agrees and take the issue directly to Subaru so we can get a recall or something else. _________________________________________ “Cleanliness becomes more important as godliness becomes more unlikely.” O C D E T A I L S . C O M OCDETAILS BLOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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