08Legacy08 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I just had mine done at the dealer. The tech who rebuilt mine is an amazing engine builder and I have personal experience with his own subaru. I think its important to ask the right questions instead of assume nobody has ever built a motor. If I had the "dealer probably never built a motor" attitude, I MIGHT have missed out on a really good build. Maybe not in your case... I agree that you should use caution and not assume the dealer will do a good job or even do it right. I'd say the same thing from some "joe bag-o-donuts" engine builder I found in the yellow pages. Sounds like we all agree that you MUST do your homework. I don't believe anyone is suggesting "HALF ASS"-ing the piston install. Are you suggesting that half-assed piston installs is what we are advocating?30 inutes per piston including honing if you reuse your block is not unrealistic - you shouldn't have a problem with the wisecos out of the box on a low mileage or new short block. You can order them "standard" size or 20 over... the latter will require machining of the block. I ordered standard size and they went in in short order. Car runs great, uses no oil and isn't very noisy once warmed up. Guys, the bottom line is do your homework. Look at facts, bend an ear toward opinion and make your own decision. I wrote out the pros-cons of my setup including price, reliability, time and I had a column that was "Meet Power Goal Y/N" To LosangelesLGT's point, (it pains me to credit him right now) you should have some kind of idea what your goals are and driving style. It may take a little time for you to formulate your opinion and that's okay but again, to LosangelesLGT's point (sting is a little less now) - you're going to get everyone's opinion right now and everyone has a different goal in mind "DO NOT HALF ASS a piston install. You can't just drop them in in 30 minutes and call it good. That's foolish. Nothing is right straight from the box. Pistons aren't a "swap and drop" item. The block needs to be measured, the right size pistons ordered, rings properly cut and installed. It takes more than 30 minutes if you want it done right, and I wouldn't trust a dealership to do it. Of all the technicians at a dealership, probably only 1 of them has ever built a motor, and it probably wasn't a Subaru motor." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 OP - I agree with RAO that an STI block is a great place to be between a built block and a standard LGT block. If I were going to replace my block I would 90% replace it with an STI shortblock and be done with it. Could a built block be better power-wise? SURE but seriously - plenty of STI are rolling around NASIOC with 350-400whp on stock internals all-day-long. Thats mobbing on most everything else driving on the road power. I just had mine done at the dealer. The tech who rebuilt mine is an amazing engine builder and I have personal experience with his own subaru... Car runs great, uses no oil and isn't very noisy once warmed up. ^Proof that a dealer can build a block AND it be DDable. Would I blindly trust a dealer to build a block? HELL NO! 08L08 is not suggesting to blindly use a dealer - clearly asking a tech/engine builder about the process and making sure that everything is going to go the way it should/you want it to, is the most important thing. I think 08L08's post is a warning: Do not assume that a dealer or builder will or can do the job you want done - make sure of it! Unfortunately, I think that many guys considering an engine build do not know enough about internals to know what to ask about the process. 8L08 I know how you love my advice but you should considering making a thread called "Questions for your Engine Builder". (I am sure this has been covered ad-infinitum in a mustang thread somewhere tho') I bet if you made a list of 10 or 20 questions for newbs to look at, research and understand - before they even considered a built block - it would simplify (and maybe even eliminate) some new threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredBeans Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 OP - I agree with RAO that an STI block is a great place to be between a built block and a standard LGT block. :lol::lol: The '05-'06 LGT short block is identical to the '04-'07 STI shortblock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 :lol::lol: The '05-'06 LGT short block is identical to the '04-'07 STI shortblock! Info gathered from NASIOC: Obviously, there is a lot of debate about the similarities of the EJ255 and the EJ257. Until Jeff Sponaugle pointed out that the pistons had different part numbers. I too thought they were the same. Today I will compare them for you. Results: EJ257: -22cc dish EJ255: -24cc dish. The shape/casting of the pistons are identical with a few exceptions. Dish profile is different to accommodate the the different volumes. The STi has a dome in the center of the piston that is 1.7mm from the top of the crown. The EJ255 has a dome that is 3.3mm from the top of the crown. Other than dome height, the dish profile is identical. Floor depth is the same at 4.75mm and the valve reliefs are identical. The markings are obviously different with the EJ257 having one dimple to indicate FWD while the EJ255 has two dimples to indicate FWD. The EJ257 has the standard A or B designation for size while the EJ255 has AD or BD. Also, the casting says "00 3R" on the EJ257 and "00 4L" on the EJ255. If you look closely at the pic of the EJ255 you'd see it has a broken ring land. Compression height is identical. Ring land thickness, spacing and ring sizes are identical. Now pictures: side by side http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 968x648 and is 90KB. http://www.turbors.admo.net/albums/car-pics/DSC02111_001.jpg top side by side.. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 930x490 and is 85KB. http://www.turbors.admo.net/albums/car-pics/pistonstop.jpg bottom side by side.. you can see where we balanced the piston on the right. That isn't a factory end mill. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 939x524 and is 93KB. http://www.turbors.admo.net/albums/car-pics/pistonbottom.jpg EJ257 side http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 873x553 and is 76KB. http://www.turbors.admo.net/albums/car-pics/ej257side.jpg EJ255 side.. see the busted ring land? http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 937x593 and is 84KB. http://www.turbors.admo.net/albums/car-pics/ej255side.jpg Hope that helps clear up some questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredBeans Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Okay, but what that doesn't acknowledge is that not all EJ255s are the same. That EJ255 is from a WRX which indeed does have different pistons. The '05-'06 Legacy EJ255 and '04-'07 STI EJ257 have identical part numbers - for the short block assembly - per the Subaru catalog. More info from Jeff Sponaugle, the gentleman you quoted: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23670210&postcount=16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 ^awesome link! thanks! reading up now! EDIT: Sorry for the TJ but for clarity by year: (also talking shortblock not longblock) 05-06 LGT block = 05-06 STI BLOCK 07-09 LGT block = WRX block with higher compression than 05-06 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I don't believe anyone is suggesting "HALF ASS"-ing the piston install. Are you suggesting that half-assed piston installs is what we are advocating?30 inutes per piston including honing if you reuse your block is not unrealistic - you shouldn't have a problem with the wisecos out of the box on a low mileage or new short block. You can order them "standard" size or 20 over... the latter will require machining of the block. I ordered standard size and they went in in short order. Car runs great, uses no oil and isn't very noisy once warmed up. Oh, 30 minutes per piston. Your original post made it sound like 30 minutes for all 4. I'd say 30 minutes per piston in a brand new block is a pretty good time. I wouldn't blindly trust "standard" size. The factory tolerances are pretty wide, and of course not every block is "standard". There are A, B, and C piston sizes. If you put a large C-piston (top of the C-tolerance) into a small A cylinder (bottom of the A-clearance), you'll be rebuilding a motor in short order. Same goes for using a Bottom A piston with a top C bore. You'll get the clackity clackity and lots of consumption. If you are reusing a block, it's stupid not to split it open, line-bore the crank journals, inspect the crank, and reassemble with new bearings. It's not that I inherently don't trust dealer techs. I'm actually friends with a few of them. What I don't trust is their management. They pawn jobs off to the cheapest person they have that will be able to do the job. Unless you personally know the tech, and can verify that he is either overseeing the build, or doing it himself, then you are taking an expensive gamble. You can do the job, or you can do it right. I'd rather pay more, have it done right at a machine shop, than gamble on a "good deal". Just my two cents. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08Legacy08 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Your right, my original post did make it sound like 30 for all 4.... :/ You know what BAC, you're right about their management. I am lucky to come from the perspective of knowing the tech that did my build... and knowing him pretty well so it wasn't a consideration for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 Okay, but what that doesn't acknowledge is that not all EJ255s are the same. That EJ255 is from a WRX which indeed does have different pistons. The '05-'06 Legacy EJ255 and '04-'07 STI EJ257 have identical part numbers - for the short block assembly - per the Subaru catalog. More info from Jeff Sponaugle, the gentleman you quoted: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23670210&postcount=16 The STI parts are made by artists who truly care about the important work that they are doing and are given the time and artistic freedom to truly craft things that aren't merely things. On the other hand, non-STI parts are made by drones or even non-human robots and are made with little thought or creativity, there are merely mass produced "things" that are designed to be obsolete. You folks are just too easy Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midslik Posted June 26, 2010 Author Share Posted June 26, 2010 thanks to everyone for your input.... Ive talked to my mechanic and the dealership so what it looks like im doing for now and the sake of time money and delearship costs im doing the new legacy shortblock with forged pistons because they already ordered the block and its do on monday morning. Also, im looking into doing grimmspeed tgv deletes and boost selonoid. Along with the act street clutch and streetlite flywheel and 11mm oil pump with group n motor and trans mounts. sorry about the prior layout it would be amazing to have but due to time and a slight lack in funds it will be at a later date Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 ^I still want a ride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midslik Posted June 26, 2010 Author Share Posted June 26, 2010 lol why do you want a ride you have a stage 3 legacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredBeans Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 You folks are just too easy I noticed you were on a roll... I didn't mean to spoil the fun but I am sure the opportunity will come along again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 lol why do you want a ride you have a stage 3 legacy Mostly because you are installing the other turbo I was considering:p I am excited to see your results!! (and you are not SERIOUSLY comparing a BnR hta68 w/ pistons and fueling to a stock fueled vf39 powered sti style lgt are you? Your car should SMOKE mine when you are done! A local - Drew888 is doing something very similar and I can't wait for a ride when his car is done!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midslik Posted June 26, 2010 Author Share Posted June 26, 2010 I saw where yours was stage 3 and assumed you were pushing alot more than what i would with the the vf46. Im keeping my high mileage vf40 and sending it off when i get more money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midslik Posted June 28, 2010 Author Share Posted June 28, 2010 latest update IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---- went to subaru today and the mechanic and parts manager decided to be assholes. Even though I gave them the check 2 weeks ago and they havent even ordered the block and i mentioned dropping in forged pistons or putting in a sti shortblock and he got more of an attitude and said to take the car somewhere else if I wanted to make a franken monster out and said that he hates dealing with kids and turbo cars... when I hand someone a check for $7000 and am bein respectful i definantly dont want to be called a kid ...... ---- so im looking for a new mechanic and am open to ideas within my funding since the car is going to be down even longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Damn, I thought you had a good dealer there. What a surprise....There must be a decent auto machine shop near you somewhere. Start going around to the local repair shops and ask them who they have do there machine work. If you can't find anyone, http://www.eastwoodsautomachine.com is local to me. They do a lot of the dealers work around here and are family friends. They will do my engine when it's time. If you need help, I'm sure they would be able to take care of you. They have also built our 586whp 1.6L Honda engine. So you can trust them. But I'm sure there is someone closer to you. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 That sucks, but I'm not shocked. I'll shoot you a PM. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymack Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 latest update IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---- went to subaru today and the mechanic and parts manager decided to be assholes. Even though I gave them the check 2 weeks ago and they havent even ordered the block and i mentioned dropping in forged pistons or putting in a sti shortblock and he got more of an attitude and said to take the car somewhere else if I wanted to make a franken monster out and said that he hates dealing with kids and turbo cars... when I hand someone a check for $7000 and am bein respectful i definantly dont want to be called a kid ...... ---- so im looking for a new mechanic and am open to ideas within my funding since the car is going to be down even longer This is what I expected from a dealer. Did you get your $7K back? Did they charge you anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Wow the dealer's response to your request was not neutral it was not negative it bordered on HOSTILE I am not at all suprised that the dealer wants no part of this but how it was handled and how you were treated was totally unacceptable. You are not some random kid who walked in from the street once they have your car and check for SEVEN GRAND. You should seriously consider writing up a detailed post/thread review of the dealership service department and how they handled themselves and treated you. It is a definately sign of how they would treat any of us that come in modded with any issues. Wow, what f---ing asshats. Sorry you had to deal with that BUT... damn good thing you are getting your car out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midslik Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 I just need to find somewhere to take my car and yes I am getting all my money back... and luckily i know the owners which was something I kept as a trump card in my back pocket in case this happened --- and thanks for the info, also at least now I should get more for my money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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