mjcdriscoll Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 so my only real complaint about the gt lmtd is i believe the brakes to be sub par for the car . i have had to rethink my plan of upgrades. instead of accessport & exhaust first i am going to do a big brake upgrade on all four corners. is it me or does anyone else feel as uncomfortable about the brakes? hell i have had quite a few sports cars - '92 300zx - mid 90 eclipse gsx - 96 300gt and 00 impreza 2.5 rs. all of those cars seemed to have brakes that were either just right or better for the power and setup of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydo2 Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 How does the car handle at altitude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjcdriscoll Posted March 22, 2005 Author Share Posted March 22, 2005 it handles gr8! - i just purhased it bc i outgrew my last car the 2.5 rs the lgt feels just like that but bigger & more powerful:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydo2 Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 The altitude doesn't sap the power, for instance, Vail pass on I70? My friend has an older Forester and it's a dog in the mountains. What's the highest octane available in CO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristian Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 The altitude doesn't sap the power, for instance, Vail pass on I70? My friend has an older Forester and it's a dog in the mountains. What's the highest octane available in CO? It pulls just as hard at 10,000 feet as it does at home (6,200 feet). Passing power is exceptional at altitude and I never felt the need to go past 4500 rpm on I-70 unlike most other cars I've driven up there. I haven't been able to find anything other than 91 in Colorado Springs but I haven't looked too hard either (I'm only on my 4th tank). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 its the suspension not the brakes the wheel stop but you have 3"+ of suspension travel befor you feel it i was blown away with the difference when i put the springs on remember big brake kits don't make you stop faster they make you stop the same .. time after time after time -fade resistance -bigger stickier tires make you stop faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDubbs Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 Im not sure if youve really gotten on the brakes, but it seems its not a ton better than my old 2.5, just takes more pedal effort/travel. If its feel your looking for, lines and pads are cheaper than a larger kit and should produce acceptable results even in hilly areas. (The brakes really are pretty big) No, the name has nothing to do with bragging about 20 inch wheels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjcdriscoll Posted March 22, 2005 Author Share Posted March 22, 2005 thanks for the info about the stickier tires - the best octane i have found is 93 (this is really close to me). here is a link for higher octane places in colorado http://cosportbikeclub.org/local/highoctane.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach_six Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I don't tailgate as much with this car, that's how I feel about the brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepin gt Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 although big brakes WILL help you stop in less distance (time and time again) you really should do lines and pads and maybe springs first. The 4k-6k brakes are just overkill for ya. do the GT and i have the same brakes? mine stop on a freakin dime, but the damn tires will lock up and drag for a good 10' if im not careful:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjcdriscoll Posted March 22, 2005 Author Share Posted March 22, 2005 i haven't locked it up yet but i think the big difference might be the suspension as pointed out earlier. i am used to cars with stiffer suspensions:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axis008 Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I heard the RE92's are to blame for the braking problems. If you notice all the car comparisions of the Legacy in magazines, the braking times are terrible, even though the brakes themselves are pretty powerful. I'll tell you from my limited experience with the Legacy that it feels stronger than my dad's Mercedes' brakes. Then again, that car is over two tons. -ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue dragon Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 remember big brake kits don't make you stop faster they make you stop the same .. time after time after time -fade resistance -bigger stickier tires make you stop faster Big brake kits do help you stop faster. The larger rotor means that the caliper is located further away from the center of the wheel. This means that you have a greater brake moment. The larger rotor is primarily responsible for the fade resistance. Stickier tires help if you are at the point where you are engaging ABS on stops. If you aren't egaging ABS, then the stock tires have plenty of grip. Remember, the job of brakes is to transfer kinetic energy to heat. They do this via friction, so a pad with a higher friction compound will help stop you even faster. The stock pad is a compromise between low dust, no noise, and long life, and it also has to be effective over a wide range of temperatures. After market pads typically do not have to meet all of these conditions and will stop you faster. I will be upgrading to the Hawk HPS pad, thats what I run on the M3, and it works great on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpmac55 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Well, I owned a VW R32 before the Legacy. It had big, bad brakes and would stop on a dime. Except when the temps got below freezing and it was wet out. If you were on a highway and not using the brakes every few minutes, when you did hit the pedal, you got nada. The brakes would eventually kick in but that first 'step on the brake' yielded nothing. A frightening feeling - especially for the first time. Want to know what that feels like? Step on the dead foot pedal to the left of the brake pedal. A few other R32 owners in snow falling parts had similar results but not enough to suggest a flaw. I pretty much drive for a living so returned home and bought my 4th Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostsr20 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Just get some better pads. The pads on that they use from the factory are made to last. Not to perform. I can't believe someone is complaining about 12"/11" Brake setups...... Also, like already mentioned, do some suspension work and you'll be surprised how much more direct the braking feel is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Schneider Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 The brake's and summer performance tires will be the first enhancments to our OB XT. (Yeah... Vail pass in this car is a breeze.) I'm strongly considering the steel brake line, pad compound up grade and fluid strategy first, and keep it at that for a while. But who is manufactureing aggressive brake pads for the OB XT just yet; Mintex, Pagid, et cetera. Cheers, Mike Cheers, Mike |`94 E-Class Coupe |`98 Carrera 993 C2S |`14 Cayman S |`20 Outback Touring XT | All Debadged | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Just get some better pads. The pads on that they use from the factory are made to last. Not to perform. I can't believe someone is complaining about 12"/11" Brake setups...... Also, like already mentioned, do some suspension work and you'll be surprised how much more direct the braking feel is. Thats the frustrating part. The rotors on our cars are quite large yet the stopping distances are dissapointing. Would not seem to be for lack of rotor size anyway. To look at them I would think that the brakes would be a strong point. Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 YAGT: Close it. P.S. YAGT = Yet Another Gripe Thread I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plunk10 Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 I heard the RE92's are to blame for the braking problems. I've heard the poor RE92s blamed for EVERYTHING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Big brake kits do help you stop faster. The larger rotor means that the caliper is located further away from the center of the wheel. This means that you have a greater brake moment. The larger rotor is primarily responsible for the fade resistance. Stickier tires help if you are at the point where you are engaging ABS on stops. If you aren't egaging ABS, then the stock tires have plenty of grip. Remember, the job of brakes is to transfer kinetic energy to heat. They do this via friction, so a pad with a higher friction compound will help stop you even faster. The stock pad is a compromise between low dust, no noise, and long life, and it also has to be effective over a wide range of temperatures. After market pads typically do not have to meet all of these conditions and will stop you faster. I will be upgrading to the Hawk HPS pad, thats what I run on the M3, and it works great on the street. no! a 9" rotor will provide enough torque to lock the brakes that is not what haveing big brakes is about. its about fade resistance. corectly proportioned braks kit(stoptec) use larger pistons to reduce the pressure on the larger rotors providing the SAME braking torque as a stock setup having bigger tires will provide you with more contact- more contact will give you greater friction to the road -thus you get greater range in threshold braking. and yes the re-92s are to blame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue dragon Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ^^ Thats incorrect, the relocation of the caliper outwards will provide you will a greater braking moment. Also, having larger tires will not give you a bigger contact patch. See this article for an explanation http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/contact.jsp As I said, brakes just transfer kinetic energy to heat. Tires stop the car, but you should only consider changing them if you are engaging ABS (meaning your stock tires are slipping and ABS kicks in). What I want, is better brake torque. If I hit the brakes hard at 160 km/hr, I cannot engage ABS. This tells me that there is not enough brake force. I can increase brake torque by changing to a pad with a higher coefficient of friction. On my old Integra with a big brake kit, I could engage ABS quite easily at that speed. If that was the case here, I'd upgrade to a stickier tire, and that would decrease my braking distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 a larger range with proportional amount of force due to the larger mechanical advantage but the over all torques is same creating lockup is bad at the point you have lost steering control thus entering ABS is bad you have over braked past the threshold my guess is on your integra you had a bias issue and you locked the front or rears first thus engaging abs that article says nothing of the sort and if that were the case race cars would be using bicycle tires ill say it again a tiny tiny 1.8L 1 piston rotor can stop the same car in the same distance on the same tires at full lockup as a 16" 10 piston rotor.. but only a few times be for it over heats to produce more stoping power with shorter distances use bigger stickier tires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue dragon Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ^^ You are saying at full lockup, and are assuming that the one piston caliper can lock up the brakes. In that situation the limiting factor would be the tires. Larger mechanical advantage translates to bigger brake torque. If the one piston caliper isn't generating enough torque to lock the brakes, then a higher friction pad would increase the brake torque. This is the case with the legacy. I haven't gotten into the tires slipping and engaging ABS. I don't think that the legacy's brakes generate enough torque to lock up the brakes at high speed. My integra didn't have a bias issue, the fronts are supposed to lock before the rears, and I did notice shorter distances merely by going to a larger rotor with a relocated caliper, due to the greater braking moment. Afterwards, I went to a 4 piston caliper for improved threshold braking and modulation. http://www.wardphotography.net/big-blue-dragon/imagepages/images/IMG_0732_1.jpg By your logic, there wouldn't be different brake pads at all, since stopping power only depended on the stickiness of the tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Don't forget the big brake test that Car and Driver performed, using a WRX, that found indeed that BBKs don't really stop the car any sooner. One car even took longer to stop than with the stock braking system. They did, however, observe that, pursuant to an above comment, fade resistance did indeed improve. BBKs look really cool, but aren't really necessary on street-driven cars, particularly ones that already have first-rate braking systems, such as our Legacy GTs. Tested against a variety of pimped-out WRX braking systems, the LGT brakes were the best, according to some folks over at NASIOC who fooled with them all. Tires are an extremely important consideration in stopping the car. Yes, it makes sense that brake torque should be an important factor in stopping the car, and it is. But if you can set off your ABS, you have enough braking power to lock the wheels, which means that you have enough braking power. As I'm fond of saying, a Kia on R-compounds will be able to outbrake a stock Legacy GT, despite the much larger rotors on the GT. R-compounds are like glue, which means that tire/road friction (grip) is very high, which is why they can stop a car so well. The other question is speed versus vehicle weight, something that also affects the overall grip equation. I would never tell anyone not to get a BBK. That Brembo kit in the STi parts catalog for the Legacy is beyootiful. But, all else being equal (tires, wheels), a BBK isn't going to stop the car that much, if any sooner. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Kevin - would you go so far to say that more agressive pads, real tires, and SS lines are all the enthusiast driver would need on these cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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