My only gripe

[Jaxx]

By your logic, there wouldn't be different brake pads at all, since stopping power only depended on the stickiness of the tires

assuming that they are at operating tempature, yes absolutely .. for the first stop then fade begins

 

 

My integra didn't have a bias issue, the fronts are supposed to lock before the rears

whoa who told you that?

thats only the case if the bias is screwed up forward and thats why your abs kicked in at 100 mph - scary actually stay away from me

 

my logic says pads make a difference as they are "tuned" for different operating temperatures/different conditions

a stock pad works great when cold and lousy after 10 hard stops from 80 mph

a ebc red pad is lousy when cold and still works after 10 hard stops from 80 .. but then tends to warp the rotors (at least subaru rotors anyway)

 

for most drivers a stock pad is more than adequate

for more aggressive drivers or people at consistently drive down steep grades a hotter pad is necessary

and a track pad is in a world of its own. unstreetable but maintains consistency when up to temperature

[blue dragon]

assuming that they are at operating tempature, yes absolutely .. for the first stop then fade begins

 

 

 

whoa who told you that?

thats only the case if the bias is screwed up forward and thats why your abs kicked in at 100 mph - scary actually stay away from me

 

my logic says pads make a difference as they are "tuned" for different operating temperatures/different conditions

a stock pad works great when cold and lousy after 10 hard stops from 80 mph

a ebc red pad is lousy when cold and still works after 10 hard stops from 80 .. but then tends to warp the rotors (at least subaru rotors anyway)

 

for most drivers a stock pad is more than adequate

for more aggressive drivers or people at consistently drive down steep grades a hotter pad is necessary

and a track pad is in a world of its own. unstreetable but maintains consistency when up to temperature

Again, thats where you are wrong, there are different pads for different operating temperatures, but the pads that have a higher coefficient of friction will also allow you to stop faster, assuming that the tires are not at their adhesion limit. Again, it comes down to more brake torque. Why do you think you get better braking with Hawk HPS pads that work when cold (compared to the stock pad), or are you going to try to dispute that as well?

 

On most street cars, the brake bias is setup so that the front brakes lock first, so as to prevent spins from the rear brakes locking up. This is especially true of pre ABS cars. I can get my ABS on the M3 to kick on at 160 km/hr, and the brake bias is stock. It just means that there is enough braking power to lock the brakes, even with Michellin Pilot sport tires.

 

I don't know if you have ever tracked your car, but many instructors encourage you to brake hard enough to engage abs.

[Jaxx]

your missing the point the limiting factor is ALWAYS the tires (until the rotor overheats then fade)

 

ill make up some numbers just just for giggles

pre fade condition

the 1.8 9" rotor produces say 1000 units- a 215/45/17's lock at say 600

giant caliper/rotor produces 10000 units that same tire will still lock at 600

a 1.8 9" rotor with better pads produces say 1100 units tire will still lock at 600 (with less peddle force)

 

total improvement 0

thats ignoring the extra 30-50 lbs of rotating mass which will actually make it worse

the solution is to change the tire to say a 255/30/18 which will lock at say 750

 

of course there is a point where the grip over powers the brakes but not on a street car

 

i am also saying that the giant caliper setup if engineered correctly still operates near that 1000 unit area

 

actually my driving instructor asked if i had abs (no i don't) he said good threshold breaking is more important to learn anyway

[gtguy]

Kevin - would you go so far to say that more agressive pads, real tires, and SS lines are all the enthusiast driver would need on these cars?

 

I would say tires and lines. Aggressive pads can dust, eat rotors, and the wrong pad can have poor cold braking performance, which can mean some serious pucker time if you're just driving around town, rather than in a situation where you can get some heat into the brakes. Performance pads can also be noisy. Performance pads are fine, but know what you're getting into.

 

The wrong pad can also be grabby, which can lead to poorer braking performance, because of the modulation difficulties attendant to grabby brakes.

 

The OE pads are very fine, in that you can adjust braking force with your pedal pressure. They also take into account the different ways that people brake. As I was taught at Skippy School, you apply the most force when it will do the most good, i.e. when you're at the highest speed. I think that many people actually do the reverse of that, which is light to medium pressure at the initial application, then increasing pressure as the car slows. This explains all of the cars whose weight you see re-settling as they come to a complete stop. With proper braking, by the time you come to a stop, there should be comparatively little pressure on the pedal, as you've already done the heavy lifting as regards your braking, early on.

 

It was counterintuitive and didn't make sense to me when I first learned it, but now it makes perfect sense.

 

Kevin

[blue dragon]

^^ People brake like that on the street for the sake of comfort, so that the forces load up gradually. Braking on the track is completely different. You pick your brake marker, and nail at at that marker (going in a straight line). Trail braking is taught later, and is something that I am still not too comfortable with.

 

Now let me get back to Jaxx's reply. If you are thinking of braking at the limit, then that is indeed limited by traction of the tires, but how long you take to get to that limit is affected by your choice of pads for example. If your pad has greater friction, you will get to that limit quicker, and hence have shorter stopping distances.

[Jaxx]

then by your example you woldn't need higher friction pads just a heavier foot

 

how long you take to get to that limit is affected by your choice of pads

but more so by the tires as you have a greater range of useable force when you have more grip