albeik Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Hi Everyone, I have been lurking around for awhile and this is my first post. I got my wife about 6 months ago an 04 Acura TL w/Nav. I am looking for an AWD car to purchase by the end of May 05 under $30k. Test drove an 05 WRX and 05 Legacy 2.5 GT LTD at Patrick Subaru (Dealer in Shrewsbury, MA). Really loved the GT and had that on top of my list. However, I just found out they have a used 2001 Audi S4/Black/6sp/46k miles (turbocharged 2.7 liter 6 Cyl.) for $23,995k. I also checked the car fax history and looks clean. I can probably get the price lower, too. I am wondering how does the 2001 Audi S4 stand in terms of performace with the 2005 Legacy GT 2.5 LTD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02M3 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 My father used to have an Imola Yellow S4, and from what I can remember, it felt a tad bit faster than my Legacy GT. They have almost identical power ratings, but the S4 weighs a couple hundred pounds more I believe. Also, due to drivetrain losses, I've heard that the Audi actually has sisgnificantly less power at the wheels than the Scooby, which seems a bit counter intuitive to what I remember. If I were you, I'd take the Legacy. You get a brand new car with a great warranty, whereas the Audi is notorious for becoming unreliable as you pour the miles on. I think it will also be less expensive to mod the Subaru than the Audi, which seems to be somewhat limited in aftermarket availability compared to the Scooby. Either way, I'm sure you'll be happy with the car you choose, good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redline76 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Well, that depends. Do you want a used car from a previous generation with little to no warranty, or do you want a brand new, current car with a full warranty? You will eat a chunk of depreciation, tho. Performance-wise, the S4 will be a bit quicker and it will have much more of a performance feel, suspension-wise. It will also feel more solid (heavy) than the Legacy (Germans),and I think the reliability will be a bit more suspect in the long run. I'm almost positive that it will cost more to maintain. I've had two Legacys in the last 10 years in the snowy climes of Canada. The environment couldn't be harder on a car, combined with the amount of salt thrown down on the roads, yet each was reliable as you could want; neither ever needed more than basic maintenance. I'm personally over buying used cars; I would have loved an S4 Avant but it was more than I was willing to spend on a car and I feel the Legacy GT is an excellent value, probably one of the best on the market today given the incentives my dealer was throwing my way. Your call. -w- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davester_exallroad Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 02///M3 I agree. Make sure you get it audi assured (ext warr). You could probably call your local audi dealer and run the VIN to see what work has been done to the car. Also, you could look up www.audiworld.com and ask a bunch of the audi geeks what's up with the s4's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeik Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 Thanks 02///M3 and everyone! I am leaning more towards the Subaru -- and after hearing from other people I am leaning even more towards the Subaru. Besides, I didn't really like the steering (looks and the feel) compared to the GT. This is the first time I deal with Subaru -- and so far the car has been great (test drove it twice) and the dealership was great. They even give out loaners which I thought was also great! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 G'Day and Welcome to the Site, Yes the S4 is a serious weapon but is an aging one at that but still is in the game. The only real thing that I can recommend is that you test drive both a few times if possible and just see which one feels right. Dont let the AGE thing worry you too much as you are getting a great car but seriously look at the extra advantages that you will gain from a brand new Subaru GT. All the best with your decision. Adam. PS Moving to Other Cars Vs GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 An s4 out of warranty is a financial time bomb. Good luck. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeik Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 Thanks agctr for moving this thread. (sorry). Yes I agree with everyone the warranty will be an issue -- and looking at it from a far at both cars in general -- I see more value from the Legacy in the long run. This is an awesome forum! -- Thanks everyone. I can't wait till the end of May! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 If the turbos blow on the Audi, it runs around $4800 to replace them, they need to pull the engine out to get to them. The S4 engine bay is really tight and the turbos have a ton of heat that they can not get rid of. Add that in with the every 10K miles that Audi recommends for oil changes, and their recent warranty on their 1.8T turbos for oil sludge....but not on the 2.7T yet, and the turbos are notoriously known for blowing. I am a long time VW and Audi owner, and I had the 2.7T motor and the turbos blew at 48K miles, once fixed, I decided to unload the car and get an outback XT. Audi is expensive to maintain, as is any high performace car, but in the long run, you might be much happier with a new car. BTW, that price for the S4 seems high, if you search, you can find a certified one for aroun $19K with similar miles. I just looked in Colorado, and there seem to be quite a few around for much less money than what you are looking at. PS....if you chip the car, and Audi finds out, they will void all warranty on that part of the engine, the turbos, etc. The timing belt needs to be changed at 60K miles and that runs around $1100-1500 depending on where you go to get it done. If you are a DIY kinda guy, the kit runs around $350, including the water pump, but remember, special tools are needed to do the job, so if you can't borrow them, they are expensive. cheers jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeik Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 Thanks 03Indigo. Further research and talking to my friend (another Audi owner - who is now looking to replace his car with an Evo 8 or the upcoming 9) - proves what is everyone saying. My friend is recommeding me to try out the Evo 9 when it comes out -- but its too far ahead and its a completely different car. I am sticking with the Legacy -- it just has the right balance of comfort, performance, price and overall value! Thanks again everyone. Hope to see myself sharing my legacy with the community in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Hey your new, no need to apologise, its all good. Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Thanks 03Indigo. Further research and talking to my friend (another Audi owner - who is now looking to replace his car with an Evo 8 or the upcoming 9) - proves what is everyone saying. My friend is recommeding me to try out the Evo 9 when it comes out -- but its too far ahead and its a completely different car. I am sticking with the Legacy -- it just has the right balance of comfort, performance, price and overall value! Thanks again everyone. Hope to see myself sharing my legacy with the community in the near future. my pleasure. I love the S4, don't get me wrong, but when you consider the price new, and compare the 2 cars, the nearly $22K difference is unreal. You will be more than happy with your legacy. I went from a chipped, and heavily modified Allroad to my outback, and I am very happy, just need some sway bars and suspension to tighten the car up, and it will be perfect. Subaru did a great job on this new generation, great comfort...I LOVE the seats, way better than the allroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S4 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I just want to agree with everything said above. I was very close to getting the Audi, and someone on Audiworld mentioned this car, so I started looking at it. They're close in stock form, but a chipped S4 would probably give even a stage II LGT a good run. However, it was the maintenance was what sealed the deal for me. The car had about 3K left on the factory warranty, and I was budgeting for a 3rd party warranty. You'll find that as soon as any warranty company hears the letters S and 4 together, you can plan on several thousand for a warranty. However, compared with the repairs cost for if/when something blows, that's a cheap investment. The good thing about this is that I still work with the guy who owns the S4. I know that it's been in the shop a LOT for all sorts of various problems, including blown turbos. But this way I'll get to find out when something catestrophic happens, then I can reaffirm my decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S4 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Oh, another thing. If you notice on the B5 S4 forum on Audiworld, you find many people panicing that their warranties are about up and wondering if they should sell. Just more evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 same on the allroad forum, they are just getting out of that range, so many people are re-thinking their decision. I got out while the getting was good and the car was SOLID...but if you read the forums, you see constant problems, air suspension, turbos, electronics, ESP, etc. It was hard for me to go, but with such a great car to replace it, without having to pay another $50K, I was VERY happy with my decision. The outback has a butt load of power and control. Going out of factory warranty and service is why you will see prices dropping for the 2001MY and other cars over 50K miles. People don't want to pay a bundle for an oil change, as you need to remove the entire belly pan to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeik Posted March 2, 2005 Author Share Posted March 2, 2005 That is so true... that is precisely why my friend is looking to sell his car ASAP! Looking to replace it with an EVO IX, if they bring in the AYC (Active Yaw Controller). At this point -- I am thinking whether to wait for a while to see what the 06s would get (i.e. NAV, HIDs) before I get the 05. I am looking at Limited/MT w/STS. Other than that -- I have never modded a car!! But this forum got me a little interested (gulp )... With the money I'll save I can try out a Stage 1 mode with an Access-port and see how it goes from their.. right after I upgrade the tires and install a starter. again... thanks everyone! Great community! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 say what you will. I bought my 00 with 50K on it, and drove it a year and a half to 70K without one hiccup. Ya'll can hate, but my S4 will always have a special place in my heart And, get this, I never bought an extended warranty ::gasp:: people are such alarmists! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 You kept a car for 18 months - that's not the goal of most of us. We'd like to own and enjoy our cars a little longer than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 say what you will. I bought my 00 with 50K on it, and drove it a year and a half to 70K without one hiccup. Ya'll can hate, but my S4 will always have a special place in my heart And, get this, I never bought an extended warranty ::gasp:: people are such alarmists! Not an alamrest at all, on mine, turbos replaced at 48k, suspension controls , abs, and esp went out at 49K, have 2 friends here with same car and they have had 6 coilpacks go between then and one transmission (replaced for the cost of $11K), and one clutch replaced for pre-mature wear. I loved my Audi, still miss some of the features, but when they go, they GO BIG. I know many turbos on the 2.7T have been replaced, hang out on Audiworld and you will read about many more that are about to go. No alarmist here, just the facts ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderkind Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 say what you will. I bought my 00 with 50K on it, and drove it a year and a half to 70K without one hiccup. Ya'll can hate, but my S4 will always have a special place in my heart And, get this, I never bought an extended warranty ::gasp:: people are such alarmists! you drove the car 20k miles and are proud it? Dude, u need to drive more. I guess my cousin should be laughing that his 10k Alfa is problem free huh? U're farnee.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 they point of buying a car with 50K on it is not to drive it till it dies. I bought the car after it's depreciation hit. I sold it before it became worthless. I paid my $415 a mo. and had not a single issue, and sold it and made out even. Whats not to be proud of? You get into a new car you better love it, because unless you put an unreasonable amount of money down, you got 2.5-3.5 years until you can think of breaking out even. If the goal is to get a car, drive it, and sell it in a year to, the 01 S4 is a hell-of-a-lot better idea that a brand new Legacy, or any brand new car. John M- How do you know "the goal of the most of us"? Am I cheating my enthusiasm for a car by keeping it 18 months and getting another? Or am I unable to enjoy it during 18 months? The difference is, I drove that car for a year, loved it, and decided to move on. There are a great number of awesome cars out there, LGT included, and having the "I'd like to enojy and own a little longer" mentality would have me sitting with my $800/mo. payment on my S4 when it was new and driving it until all the joy of the car is gone, and I have to deal with all the headaches. 03Indigo- I did hang out on AudiWorld, and the same people there that have their turbos blow on them, will have their turbo blow here. LEt's see, I'l chip my car to make 340hp and 380lbs-ft torque, and play with my boost a little, and then I'l change around a whole bunch of other stuff that someone on this board with a lot of posts said is god to do, and then I'l complain about my turbos blowing. For $800, you chip the S4 to make 318hp and 345(?) lbs-ft torque...How many "enthusiasts" have done this? If it wasn't so cheap to raise the performance numbers of the car, less people would complain about blown turbos. If you take care of the components of the car (turbos included), they won't blow. Wait 2 or 3 years, and see how many "Turbo Issues" threads start popping up here! wunderkind- How many miles of driving a particular car qualifies me to be a proud owner? I have 6000 miles on my LGT, should I wait to be proud for a while? My total cost of ownership of my Audi for 18 months was around $6,000. My first 18 months of ownership of my LGT will cost me $11,000. One has been trouble free, and the other will hopefully be the same.. So, given the equal amounts of time, which car is a better deal? Of course I will drive the LGT longer than 18 months, and my cost of ownership will decrease, but saying "driving a car for 18 months for 20000 miles is nothing to be proud of" is a bit narrowminded. After all, that was the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 "sold it before it became worthless" That says it all. Not every S4 has massive problems, but a lot do and if it happens the cost is quite high. I had all kinds of trouble with my brand new S4. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 what "performance-oriented" car, with cheap mods, a turbo and a 100,000 miles is worth a lot? To ME, their not worth my money, making them worthless. I know the mid-90's ZX's, Supras and RX7's are considered greats, but I wouldn't touch with a stick. (unless I really new my stuff about rebuilding motors, turbos, etc., which I don't) To me, it wouldn't be worth the money, making it "worthless" and, once again, it doesn't disprove my point that if the owned "appropriately", the car can't be "All Fun, and No Problems" I know what you're saying about the cars- my friend is a service advisor at an Audi dealership , hehe Nevertheless, my point of buying my S4, owning it, and selling it, was great in its timing and a great ownership experience. It's not a flawless car, and it's far from perfect, but MY experience with it was awesome. Why would I go on here and badmouth it? I have nothing bad to say. Maybe I went a little far defending it, however Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Supras have actually gone up in value. But that is besides the point. The point is that a S4 out of warranty iss a large expense waiting to happen, much more so then a number of other cars. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 not just turbos my friend, I know many people with STOCK chips and blown turbos. I am just saying, that when they go, they are very EXPENSIVE to get replaced...I am not saying that there is anything different between build quality...so let that one go. All I am saying is that the expense of the repairs is MUCH higher on the 2.7T than on any Subie. I have invoices to prove it if you want. The S4 is a great car, but given the choice of a 4 year old car V. a new car, similar price, similar performance numbers, why not get the new one? As the old one is more prone to problems earlier and then when then those problems show up, the $4800 price tag, if you can get a discount, to replace the turbos is much higher than on the Subie...so just add in those differential cost into the price of purchasing the car. And then the timing belt. AoA recommends replacement at 105K, but EVERYONE on audiworld who is not under Audi Assured is replacing them earlier...at a significant cost as well. So, if you buy a used S4, around 40-50K miles, you are almost out of warranty, then you have to pay for the timing belt, nearly a grand there, and if the turbos go...no so much fun. Just have about $7000 in savings to prepare for down time in the car. That is all i am saying. I am sure turbos will blow here, turbos blow EVERYWHERE, but the cost of replacement is the issue. Just think about it, $11,000 for a 6 speed transmission replacement....that was under warranty, but if you blow that, are you ready for that cost. I seriously doubt the tranny on any of these subies will cost that much. I know plenty of people that have chipped, K04'd, FMIC, the works, and still blew the K04. The k03 and even the hybrid K03/04 are very small turbos for the pressures they endure, not to mention heat. Even on the 1.8T they blow. No matter who makes the turbo, or supercharger, when you have forced induction, you are running the risk of blown intake systems and possibly more with oil leaks. So get over it, not knocking Audi at all, just knocking the price of repair...and duration to when the repairs occur...new vs. used, price for price. The Audi is much more expensive and not all that much faster off the line...stock. so there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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