03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Supras have actually gone up in value. But that is besides the point. The point is that a S4 out of warranty iss a large expense waiting to happen, much more so then a number of other cars. EXACTLY!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I agree with you. but, contrary to all the advice and all the horror stories, my Audi was 50K when I got it. I spent $0 on repair/maintenance other than usual oil changes. I did change the breaks when I got it for $500, so I do know what you mean about cost of repair. $23 for Audi. $30 for Subbie. A year later, Audi is worth $17, Subie is worth $19. (Realistic trade numbers I think) If the point is NOT to keep the car long-term, I'd argue that Audi is the better choice. (2 years down the line the Subbie depreciates 2-3 grand while the Audi goes down to 12 or so. SO long-term Subbie is the better deal in the long run) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 $30K for the Subie is unrealistic. I got a OB LTD, and it was not even that much (I got the car for right around $29K), and that was with all options, nothing left out, so realistically, subie...$25K for the LGT Sedan....and trade value on an S4 right now is about $17K if that. The allroad 2001 is only worth about $18.5K now on a trade. in a year, the Audi will only be worth about $13K on a trade strictly due to the cost of service and repair. Still decent value for a 5 year old car, but in 5 years, it lost about $40K in value, in 5 years, the subie will lose about $20K at the most... Apples and oranges, but a penny is a penny. My pockets are deep, but I would rather do other things with my money than just have one expensive car...Namely, 3 decent cars, all different use, Toyota truck, Outback, and MINI Cooper, and then have Granite Counters in my new house...Value and expense mean everything, especially with performance numbers being sooooooo close between the 2 different cars. Is the S4, new or used, really worth it? A new B6 S4 runs about $52K....is the nearly $28K in difference between the 2 cars worth the status you feel you need to impress people with? Did not mean that much to me either. I can blow by a 2003 Allroad 2.7T with 6 speed manual right now in my Outback. Similar cars, WAY different cost, more power. Less creature comforts, sure, but in the long run, I did not use them in my allroad. I mainly used the heated seats and home link, outside of that....the rest was just fluff. For me that is. To each their own, but if you buy a LGT manual for $30K, you got jacked. Most are around $25K realistically. No hate here, just my personal opinions for my personal situation, and from personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 28K invoice, plus taxes and all the good stuff is actually closer to 31. I got in in August, so if they are going for 3 grand under invoice, I got jacked http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/subaru/legacy/100396965/optionsresults.html?action=2&tid=edmunds.n.options.ntmv.1.1.Subaru* (not including the advertising adder, which varies by region I suppose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 The Audiport survey... http://audiport.com/survey/turbo/turbo_result2.htm Id say you got lucky that your turbo didnt blow... you had a better chance not getting killed in vietnam... If 1 in 7 turbos blew out of the people surveyed id be a little bit concerned. Even the stock cars had around a 1:15 ratio.... one in a few thousand is acceptable 1:15 is ludicrous.... http://audiport.com/survey/turbo/turbo_comments2.htm user comments indicate that people who have had thier cars for an extended period of time had MULTIPLE instances of turbo failure. Many who responded NO had low mialage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 With all due respect, 287 people surveyed is hardly a "normal disribution" curve. Especially in a directly targeted enthusiast site. 287 owners on one site is hardly a good sample If you go on this site and take a survey of people who plan to or have modded the car, you will get a percentage spread much closer to 50/50 than if you actually survey all the owners (which include clueless grandmas, etc.) nevertheless, just arguing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 With those ratios it is troubling.... The survey is made to give a general idea not an exact number. You dont see 1:7 people blowing turbos here or on WRX forums. I mean 1:7 is about the ratio of complaints that I hear a week about the Lack of HID's and Navigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 28K invoice, plus taxes and all the good stuff is actually closer to 31. I got in in August, so if they are going for 3 grand under invoice, I got jacked Well, I was originally looking at a LGT Wagon Ltd. and my price on that loaded was $28K plus taxes. It would have taken 6 weeks to order it in. But that is loaded. If I wanted a LGT Sedan non Ltd. off the lot, they quoted me $25K, but I wanted a wagon...and ended up with the outback. So, If i got my loaded Outback XT LTD for $29,100, final price after all is said and done, I do think you got jacked. Granted my taxes were less because I put $23K down, but still, that is a HUGE differential for a sedan over an outback wagon. PS. i like to argue too, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 oh ok- you were talking Limited vs. Non-limited. (LGT = Limited GT, no? ) i just got mine at invoice ($28-and-change) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 LGT = Legacy GT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 duh- nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 My total cost of ownership of my Audi for 18 months was around $6,000. My first 18 months of ownership of my LGT will cost me $11,000. One has been trouble free, and the other will hopefully be the same.. So, given the equal amounts of time, which car is a better deal? Of course I will drive the LGT longer than 18 months, and my cost of ownership will decrease, but saying "driving a car for 18 months for 20000 miles is nothing to be proud of" is a bit narrowminded. After all, that was the goal.I could say my goal is to spend less than $30,000 in the next 18 months and I could succeed.. Should I feel good about that? This is what you did do -> in 36 months you will have spend $17,000 on cars, still owing $15-20k on your car. With no major parts breakage I plan to spend an average of ~$3400 on my LGT over it's first 18 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03Indigo Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 haha, here is one on ebay for under $28K, and it is new. I am sure you can still deal on it as well.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4532147771&category=31869&sspagename=WDVW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Deer Killer: Take into consideration your depreciation, that's what I did and you didn't. Your car will be worth less than 20 after 12. And no, what you tried to explain is not what I did. I spent 6000 on my Audi in PAYMENTS for 18 months, and walked away from the car (selling it for what I owed). You will spend MORE THAN 10,000 in the 18 months you own your LGT. In 36 months your car (at wholesale) will be worth less than 50% of what you paid for it. That's appx. 14,000. Let's say 16,000, since you will not get wholesale for your car on trade-in, and these are the numbers you should use to figure out worst case scenarios anyway (and this is what I used for the Audi comparison). Sooo, using the logic I gave to you, I would have spend 6,000 X 2 = 12,000 on two cars in 36 months. (not to mention both of these would theoretically be $45,000 when new), and you will spend $16,000 on one that is $29,000 when new. What am I missing? If I bought cars that were 3 years old and were $29,000 new my total for 36 months would be closer to 10,000, while yours remain at 16,000. So I you need to tell yourself you are only losing 3400 of equity in your car in the next 18 months to make yourself feel wise about your decision about a new car, cool. But you're a bit off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Deer Killer: Take into consideration your depreciation, that's what I did and you didn't. Your car will be worth less than 20 after 12. Actually I'm considering every dollar spent a total loss. If I were to take into account the residual value It's more like $2800 for 18 months. And no, what you tried to explain is not what I did. I spent 6000 on my Audi in PAYMENTS for 18 months, and walked away from the car (selling it for what I owed). You will spend MORE THAN 10,000 in the 18 months you own your LGT. You lost 6000 dollars in 18 months. I am not concerned about the actual money that I need to actually spend now or later. I am only concerned with the lifetime of the car. If you're trying to budget over how much you can afford to spend each month you've got other problems.. and I certainly don't think an audi is the right car for a person like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Tell me, as someone who budgets what a car is worth a month, what kind of problems do I have? Since basic mathematics seems to be a softpoint with you, on more time: Your car will depreciate MORE THAN 3800 dollars in 18 months. That would mean your total dollars spent on the car couldn't possible be less than that. And since mathematics have given us the wonderful opportunity to generalize and structure numbers in a way that can be compared, we can take the money you have spent to own your car, include depreciation (and things such as insurance, gass, maintenance, etc.) and divide it by the number of months. This gives us the total amount a car costs us per month. According to Edmunds.com (who probably have other problems alos, because the break down what a car costs you over a period of time), the costs of a LGT (not including insurance, and gas) is just over $30,000 for 60 months. That is over $500 a month. This takes into account interest you pay on a car loan (for people with problems as you say), registration, maintenance and depreciation. http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/subaru/legacy/100396965/cto.html?tid=edmunds.n.researchlanding.leftsidenav..4.Subaru* Let's recap: My last car purchase cost me just under $400 a month. My new car purchase will costs me $500 a month AFTER 5 years. Let's take the same period as my last car, (eg 18 months): Taking the numbers for year one, and dividing the year two in half (which is being generous since the car dpreciation is not linear), my total for the first 18 months of ownership is $808. Your's is 180/mo. Did you find gold in the back of your car? Tell me again how you are economically smart and I have othe rproblems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 T... othe rproblems?You got owned by a late model car that is still under heavy depreciation for 18 months, and have nothing to show for it now. The banks and all the financial rules will agree with you, for good reason. That reason just doesn't happen to be in your favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Ummm, did you read my post? Read it again, then say what you said again. We are comparing a used S4 with a new LGT. The conclusion of the post above is that my and yours LGT will cost both of us in the neighberhood of $500 a month to OWN for the next 60 months. If we own it only for 18 months, it will cost over $800. again, this includes the equity we have in our cars. That is, $800 a month for the next 18 months with NOTHING TO SHOW afterwards. That is the point of "true cost to own". It includes what the car is worth. Is there a terrible conspiracy that has been started by the whole "mathematics" movement? Am I in danger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Is there a terrible conspiracy that has been started by the whole "mathematics" movement? Am I in danger?amusing, but you're missing something.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Please, explain to me what I am missing. And, if possible, could you use some data and/or numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Please, explain to me what I am missing. And, if possible, could you use some data and/or numbers?Time... 10-12 years, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Wow, a couple of pages without the thread-starter, albeik, posting. "I see more value from the Legacy in the long run" is in one of his posts. Albeik, what's your definition of "long run"? -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 There is an economic concept that goes somehting like, "In the long run, we're all dead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alostsok Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I'm not "missing" time. I'm using a period of time that is more corresponding to useful comparisons. If you plan on driving your LGT with 160,000 in 2015, have fun. I use two-ply toilet paper too, but I wouldn't consider myself to be unable to maximize my budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderkind Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Either way, the SRT-4 pwnz jooo!!! and the G35 is better because of the centre mounted analog clock that either the S4 nor the LGT has. Hence the G35 is the best car ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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