Suspension upgrades for my track days

[rosscarlson]

I'm planning the following upgrades to my new 09 Spec.B - input is definitely appreciated

 

Cobb stage II kit (springs and front/rear sways)

Front/rear endlinks

Strut bar

R-compound tires (for now on my stock Spec.B rims)

4 piston BBK

Cobb Accessport

 

From the math I've done I'm thinking I can do all that for under $3500, that's my budget for the moment. Any suggestions for changes to the plan? I get about 8 or so track days a season, my first one is in 6 weeks so I've gotta get crackin'

 

Thanks all,

 

Ross

[caramall2]

Multiple Mods: I'm not a big fan of throwing a bunch of mods on at once. You don't really get to see what each of them do. E.g. How will you know what difference your springs made vs your sway bars if you throw them all on at once? My 2 cents.

 

Driving technique: Most important mod is YOU ;-) Don't get too lost in mods that you forget to focus on driving skill. This is a common mistake many of us (including me) make.

 

Ok, mechanical mods (note I'm not smart on the 09 Spec B so this is more based on 2005 LGT). In order of importance, generally I think the most important are brakes, then suspension (though this can affect braking), then power:

 

- Definitely do:

-- Upgraded brake pads

-- upgraded brake fluid (and replace it after the track weekend)

 

- Nice:

-- R compounds: Really, just having any decent summer performance tire is fine...you don't have to have R compounds. Not sure what 09 comes with.

-- Sways: I really liked the affect of upgraded sways (Cusco).

-- Springs: I went straight to coilovers. I like the adjustability of ride height, preload, dampening, and quite important...camber (I saw guys at the track chew up their tires because their camber wasn't sufficient). I like being able to increase camber a little just before tracking the car. Just my 2 cents.

 

- Your other mods:

-- Access port: What power stage are you trying to go? Are you going to get an upgraded downpipe (need for 2005, not sure about 2009)? More power is nice, but we all need to learn how to drive more on the track than we need power. So, fun to do, but in no way critical (and can be a negative if it's wet, your skill isn't up to par, etc.).

-- 4 piston: Not needed. Nice? I'm sure they are, but I've tracked my car on stock calipers with no problems. Pads are the important thing.

-- Endlinks: No need in my opinion if the car is fairly new, but if you're going to track a lot, you could buy a set so if they ever start to go you can quickly replace them at the track. I'll let others chime in.

-- Strut bar: I don't think it does much on our cars.

 

I'm no expert, just my opinion.

[rosscarlson]

Caramall2,

 

Thanks for all the info, let me respond to a few things:

 

- Tuning me - couldn't agree more. I do at least 6 days of professional driving schools a year, my next one is a 2 day advanced Lotus racing school in Pahrump, NV (outside Vegas) in April. So I'm definitely tuning the nut behind the steering wheel first!

 

- Lots at once. Again I agree but as most of my track friends cars are significantly faster than mine (R8, 911 turbo, S4's, M3's, etc) I wanted to get mine up to speed pretty quickly.

 

- Brakes: I'm VERY heavy on brakes. I had an 07 350z and I'd chew through a set of pads on my stock calipers in 2 days. Once I upgraded to the BBK (I did a 6 piston on it) things were MUCH better for me.

 

- R compounds: the car came with the Potenza RE050A's which while good tires aren't perfect for the track. To save cost I want a second set of track only tires so if I'm going to do that I figured r-comps would be the way to go.

 

- Springs: I hadn't thought about coilovers instead, I agree on the camber comments. I'll have to look into that next. I really want to lower the stance of the car, I think it just looks a little too high (don't want a ricer, just a little sportier)

 

- Access port: I'd go stage 1 now for a small boost but in the future I'm planning exhaust, CAI, down pipe, clutch, flywheel, etc. I've also read that the stock mix is fairly lean and that matters here at altitude (I'm in Denver, CO)

 

- Strut bar: ok cool, that'll save me some money, I'll skip that.

 

Great discussion, I really appreciate it. Any other input guys???

 

-Ross

[rosscarlson]

Sorry, follow up question on the coilovers - is that really a good way to spend cash on the Spec.B given the Bilstein shocks? Would springs just be enough?

[frostbite3360]

^^ That's what I would think. You got good struts already, just get some good springs to match and be done with it.

[Daedalus]

If you're going through the trouble of getting R-comps, why would you mount them on the skinny and heavy Spec.B wheels? In terms of handling I'd do it in this order.

 

Springs (not cobb, go with something more aggressive like Pinks, Swifts, or RalliTeks)

Sways

Wheels + tires.

[Underdog]

I'm assuming this is also your daily driver? If so, you will want coilovers. The legacy is travel limited and you might be fine with lowering springs on the track, but you will want quality coilovers for the following reasons:

 

1. Higher spring rates available

2. Camber plates for better control of alignment

3. Better suspension travel for improved comfort despite increased spring rates

4. Performance oriented damping

5. Height adjustability for track/daily driving/winter

[itsme]

Sorry, follow up question on the coilovers - is that really a good way to spend cash on the Spec.B given the Bilstein shocks? Would springs just be enough?

You have to rememeber that Coil overs have matched spring and dampers. I have KW V.2 and even thought the springs are 7K all the way around(I think stock springs are 4.5K) the ride is very smooth. It's BMW firm but, never harsh. In hard corners and you hit a bump it doesn't upset the chassis. Plus they are 18-way adjustable.

 

I got Whiteline adj. swaybar so I can set the car how I like. With the Coil-overs and sway I don't have to set everything so hard to get good handling and road holding.

 

Dint waste your money on end links get the LCA poly bushings from AVO or Speedpro. That will make the car more responsive and you will have to do less corrections on straights and curves.

 

The top Strut bars don't really do anything but the lower F&R control arm braces do help.

 

I also got the AVO RSB brace as a just encase because the rear sway bar mount looks pretty weak.

 

You can also go Open source(OS) tuning. All you need is a laptop and a cable. We have some vendors that do OS e-tuning on this site like infamous1. With a infamous1 tune my stg2 w/TBE with hi-flow cat and FMIC I made 277whp on 91 cali gas and hit 18.5 psi @2800rpms with a stock turbo. Now I have a 20G w/EWG and supporting mods I'm at @340whp. I hit about 20.5 psi and hold 20 psi till 7k rpms. I also got a e85 tune from him. I filled up with e85 last night and flash the new rom. I was stuck in traffic so I couldn't really get on it. But, when I hit a open stretch it was like wow. I looking to gain about 30 to 50whp with e85 boost at 22psi and tapper to 21psi at 7k. With just injectors and a fuel pump upgrade you can get a big bump in power with e85. Plus from what I read e85 won't knock and it's cheaper then race gas and makes more power.

 

Of couse change your tires and the rest of the things you have posted should work fine. You just have to decide on how much power you need. Good luck.

[caramall2]

Ross...I think you're on the right track (no pun intended).

 

- I do like the coilovers and others have given some other good reasons. I agree stance looks a bit high on our cars.

- Track time. Sounds like you have way more experience than me! I'd agree that in light of that, I know how it is to want to have a moderately "competitive" car, even when it's for fun. I've enjoyed having my Subie modded...the driver (me) definitely needs more work!

- Brakes: I think they should be top priority...after hauling down from 120 mph in to a 120 deg turn multiple times, the thought of brakes failing is a bit scary (happend to a couple guys on a track weekend I was at). So, as long as you're getting improvement, I'd say mod away. Cooling seems to be a big factor. I've considered some sort of ducting for the track.

 

Let us know how it all works out!

[trackhore]

ditch the strut bar and end links, save the money for the brake pads you'll be eating through in two event days, maybe less depending on your track. You'll be fine with stock calipers and stageII power levels, IMO, but if your driving style is as hard on the brakes as you described, something like the Wilwood set-up should suit you nicely. Skip the brembos, they don't really handle aggressive tracking from my own personal experience.

 

Anyway, track fees and front pads will become your number one and two recurring costs to keep at the hobby. So any mod not ultimately necessary will be better used for those two items to help get more seat time which will increase your experience/comfort level and in turn be the biggest factor in getting your car around the track quicker.

 

Also, R-compounds like more negative camber to stay happy vs a conventional summer street tire. While not necessarily an upfront need, adjustable rear links will allow you to dial in some negative static camber that can't be attained with the OEM adjustment. Simply droping the front end on aftermarket springs and the stock eccentric bolts will get you as much as -1.5* camber up front which is better than nothing. Finally, if you're going to be running r-compunds, invest in a decent air pressure gauge, one that wasn't purchased from a carboard display at a gas station.

 

Good luck!

[caramall2]

Pads & Calipers

 

While we're on this discussion....

 

I'd chew through a set of pads on my stock calipers in 2 days. Once I upgraded to the BBK (I did a 6 piston on it) things were MUCH better for me

Did you stick with the same rotor? If you went bigger, then that obviously helps siginificantly (diameter).

Did you use the exact same pad compound for both the stock and the BBK (e.g. PFC01 or something)? If not, not a fair comparison. :-)

How did the surface area of the two pads compare? If BBK was a lot more (and may have been) then that's probably why it lasted longer (more pad material, also may have heated up a little less?).

 

something like the Wilwood set-up should suit you nicely

The only concern I had with these is I believe their pad surface area is less than stock....that's going the opposite direction I would want to go.

 

Just a thought, but maybe you can start with a stock and some good pads (XP-12, PFC01, etc.), and see how fast you chew through them (I, like you, went through front XP-8s in one weekend...worked decent though. They're my summer street pad now...really like them (dusty, but who cares, brakes are great)). If I did an upgrade, I'd really like to go to larger rotors at the same time as I think that's where you get a lot of heat reduction (less force required because you have a longer "lever arm"...).

[Verwilderd]

ditch the strut bar and end links, save the money for the brake pads you'll be eating through in two event days, maybe less depending on your track. You'll be fine with stock calipers and stageII power levels, IMO, but if your driving style is as hard on the brakes as you described, something like the Wilwood set-up should suit you nicely. Skip the brembos, they don't really handle aggressive tracking from my own personal experience.

 

Anyway, track fees and front pads will become your number one and two recurring costs to keep at the hobby. So any mod not ultimately necessary will be better used for those two items to help get more seat time which will increase your experience/comfort level and in turn be the biggest factor in getting your car around the track quicker.

 

Also, R-compounds like more negative camber to stay happy vs a conventional summer street tire. While not necessarily an upfront need, adjustable rear links will allow you to dial in some negative static camber that can't be attained with the OEM adjustment. Simply droping the front end on aftermarket springs and the stock eccentric bolts will get you as much as -1.5* camber up front which is better than nothing. Finally, if you're going to be running r-compunds, invest in a decent air pressure gauge, one that wasn't purchased from a carboard display at a gas station.

 

Good luck!

 

+1 on ditching the strut and endlinks. The endlinks don't need to be changed as they are strong enough....I would only consider changing them if ever they get bent. As far as the strut bars....just car bling on these cars. The strut towers on the Legacy are strong enough. Also, just remember if you go to the Cobb springs and stay on stock struts, you will wear them out faster. If I were you, I would save and get some sort of coilover. Then you've got a strut made for the more aggressive spring. Just realize as well, coilovers, because they are more aggressive than stockers will not last as long as well, and will need to be rebuilt from time to time. So keep that in mind.

As far as brakes, the stock brakes on the Legacy's are actually pretty good. If I were you, I would just change the pads, fluid and get some braided steel brake lines....They really make a difference in pedal feel, so you will have more reponsive braking.

 

I would start with all that and then upgrade as you see fit. Remeber too, (and I don't know if this was mentioned), but tires are one of the most important handling upgrades. Doesn't matter what you do to the car, the car will suck if you have bad tires. Ultimately it all comes down to those four little patches the size of your hand that touch the ground.

[Saul_Good]

+10000 for registration fees. Seat time is more satisfying than cool parts u rarely put to use. But if you're ballin then doeet all.

[peteyjr]

Lots of good posts and advice above. For me Brake upgrade was essential (non spec B). What really improved my times and fun (Autocross) besides seat time was R compounds. Shaved 3-4 sec which is considered plenty. You can get used Hoosier or Kuhmo victoracers (my pick)on ebay or Autocross forums for good deals. I run in South Fla and there is another member that runs a stock spec B (I question how stock it really is sometimes). He beats STI"s regularly. He does have victoracers and most of the competitive guys in my area have separate wheel/tire combo's for track days.

[rosscarlson]

Deadalus

- I agree on the rims and have started looking at them. I'll most likely do that too

- I've also been reading a lot about the RalliTeks and will probably go with them

 

Underdog

- Those are all great reasons although I can't really justify the expense right now. I don't mind sacrificing a little ride quality (yes it is my daily driver). I'll plan coilovers for the future (I like the Tein adjustable ones)

 

Itsme

- I'll have to read more about the OS tuning. I work with computers for a living so that's righ up my alley anyway. I don't know much about tuning but if there are maps out there I can use that would be great.

 

trackhore

- Track fees, brakes, etc. I've got all that built into my budget already so that's not too much of an issue.

 

caramall2

- You're totally right on the pad comparison, I never did try the same compounds so I can't really say. The ones I chewed in a day (litterally in 2 sesssions) were Hawks, can't remember which ones. I really like to late brake so that's definitely the first thing I had on my list. I also plan to go with at least the same size rotor if not bigger

 

Verwildered

- From everything I've read the stock brakes really suck for lots of track work (that was in either R&T or C&D, can't remember). Plus I like the look of them too ;-)

 

All

- I've all but decided to do light 17" rims for both my snow tires (I'm in Colorado and need them for the winter and for the ice track work I do). I'll swap my track tires on to them in the summer and swap tires at the track. So rims/tires are on the short list.

 

I don't think I'll do coilovers this year as I don't think I'll have that much cash to play with. Right now here's my order of purchases:

 

- Brakes

- Tires/rims

- springs/sways (front/rear)

 

I'll do all those this season then next year I'll probably do coilovers and some power mods (I like the power but obviously want more!) This discuss has been extremely helpful, I'm so glad there is such a wealth of information out about our cars (I wasn't expecting that before purchase). Huge thanks to everyone!!!

 

-Ross

[Verwilderd]

I would push the sways up a little higher on your list. They make a noticable improvement. The rear sway on the legacy is tiny tiny.

[Verwilderd]

I'm about to get into autocross and my order is a little different. Sways, brake pads fluid and lines, tires, rims springs.

 

I'll see where that takes me I guess.

[rosscarlson]

Well that list isn't really in order, that's really the list I'll do in the next few weeks (for this season). I did a few autocross events last year and really didn't like it at all. I'm pretty much all about the track. The way I described it to a friend that I go to the track with was like this:

 

Autocross is like 45 seconds of great sex.

Tracking is like 20 minutes of mind blowing sex.

I don't know about you but 45 seconds just doesn't cut it for me.

 

:-)

[Verwilderd]

Ah ok. Lol. Well then fair enough. For tracking I can see why you would want to do the things you are doing. For some reason I thought you were referring to just autocross. Brakes are definately a bigger deal when tracking and I can understand wanting to upgrade them completely.

[nm]

Well that list isn't really in order, that's really the list I'll do in the next few weeks (for this season). I did a few autocross events last year and really didn't like it at all. I'm pretty much all about the track. The way I described it to a friend that I go to the track with was like this:

 

Autocross is like 45 seconds of great sex.

Tracking is like 20 minutes of mind blowing sex.

I don't know about you but 45 seconds just doesn't cut it for me.

 

:-)

Eh, they both get the job done.

Autocross tecahes you some useful skills, costs much less, and generally doesn't require driving somewhere.

Do both.

 

Tire should be the forst auto-x mod

Brakes (pads and fluid) should be the first track mod.

[rosscarlson]

NM,

 

You're right, they are both fun but for my money the track is 100x more fun than autocross. I know guys that just eat it up though and hate the track - so to each his own. And you're totally right that it's a LOT cheaper!

 

And I agree on your mod list, tires first then brakes...

[lawl]

it's more than 100 times more expensive if we're going dollar per seat time

[nm]

it's more than 100 times more expensive if we're going dollar per seat time

Depends on if you factor in the motel, the bottle of brake fluid, the gas money, etc.

[lawl]

Depends on if you factor in the motel, the bottle of brake fluid, the gas money, etc.

 

those are variables. i'm talking the time after u arrive at the venue and before you leave.

 

but there are other things... like time spent hocking cones versus driving. if time is money...

 

 

add the cost of skin cancer treatment to the autocross

[nm]

add the cost of skin cancer treatment to the autocross

Sunscreen and maning up

 

I like em both. Honestly, I think i learn more in autocross, it is basically consequence free meaning I can really run on the edge. I've spun the wagon twice in 9 events and nearly done it a few more times. Makes me far more comfortable with the limits knowing where it is and what happens when I cross them.

I spin at 60 mph on a track and I'm in a tire wall, i spin at 60mph in auto-x I get some cone marks.