Stick or Auto

[shelltox]

Have driven a stick all my life until I got stuck with this current auto car. Not fun in REAL driving and I'm hoping the 6MT would be available when they launch the car. So far only news is 5MT. Am very positive that 6MT would be available to stay competitive since most cars comes std with it these days With the 6MT on the STi, I'm sure there's not going to be any exception. This will go head 2 head with the A4 !

[PPower]

OK, thanks Kevin. Don't I feel silly. Even the basic explanation on subaru.com says so. If both transfer torque according to conditions, then what does VTD do that the other system does not? I was just checking on gear ratios to plug into GT3, and I noticed on Subdriven.com's summary that the manual has a viscous-coupling locking center differential compared to the VTD: Planetary center differential with electronic control. The best I can summon is that the viscous-coupling works by sending power back and forth just like the the LSD whereas the non-mechanical VTD is transferring power based on electrical sensors. If you have increased power, I am guessing that having a clutch in the transfer case could burn up easier. Maybe this partly where the saying come from that VTD/DCCD can't handle high hp. VTD is set at 45/55 distribution under normal driving whereas the manual's AWD is at 50/50. Distribution obviously changes as needed. I haven't yet found how much power can be sent front or back on the MT, but I read from people's posts last night that the VTD should be able to send up to about 85% to front or rear. All in all, I don't see that the VTD is something to cream yourself over.

[PPower]

OK, so now on to my oh so scientific GT3 runs. What I found out was interesting and strange. On the manual, I found that the 4.110 gets better acceleration than the JDM Spec B's 4.444. ??? Furthermore, the slightly taller gearing of the automatic gives even better acceleration! How is that for flying in the face of convention? I'm sure this doesn't take into account a power loss to the wheels in automatics, and you aren't going to be doing 6000rpm launches in either transmissioned car (I hope :shock: ). Something else interesting was that I "bought" the variable center differential to put it at 45/55, and my 0-400M acceleration runs became slower by about .33 seconds (12.36 vs. 12.69 using 405hp). At cruising speeds, 4th gear in the automatic at 40mph (common speed limit in town) was a bit under 2000rpm compared to about 2150 in the MT. 65mph in 5th was mph / 5AT / 5MT 40mph 1800 2200 45mph 2000 2500 55mph 2000 2400 65mph 2500 2750 75mph 2800 3000 85mph 3150 3500 I haven't plugged the gear ratios into my gearing chart to check the accuracy, but this way was more fun. :D

[Stef]

Damn right your getting stick, Tide. :D

[gtguy]

PPower, I don't think that you're too far off. The 3.9 final drive in the WRX has me spinning at about 3,000 rpm at 80 mph. That isn't buzzy at all, and I like being close to boost in 5th gear, so you don't have to downshift in top gear. Don't forget, also, that the new Legacy will have MUCH better NVH than the WRX. Nice work, man. Oh, I've forgotten exactly how the AT AWD differs from the manual. What's funny is that some suggest (over at NASIOC) that the AT's AWD system is more "advanced" than the MT. Hell, it needs to be. There's not as much driver input. Kevin

[team23jordan]

[quote]1. Legacy Spec B (5MT) lap1- 1'15"06 lap2- 1'09"61 lap3- 1'09"71 TOTAL 3'34"37 3. Legacy Spec B (5AT) lap1- 1'19"55 lap2- 1'12"31 lap3- 1'12"50 [/quote] thats not that big of a difference at all

[PPower]

From what I have been able to read now, I agree with you Kevin. The ATD is is more advanced than the viscous-coupling, but it needs to be as you said. I feel more comfortable with a mechanical device more than the electronic sensors. If you have a lot of horsepower, those sensors are going to go haywire and not know what to do even if it can handle the power. The auto seems to be a good one if you need an automatic, but it doesn't make up for a good MT.

[legacy2ner]

Wouldnt the auto have more drivetrain loss?

[PPower]

yes, and the JDM auto is rated at 260hp compared to 276 in the manual. Paul Hansen told me that the Legacy is getting about 260hp showed on the dynos, and I assume that to be the manual because his point is that they are only 276 ON PAPER. The auto could then be more like 250hp as ours are quoted.

[SUBE555]

[quote name='team23jordan'][quote]1. Legacy Spec B (5MT) lap1- 1'15"06 lap2- 1'09"61 lap3- 1'09"71 TOTAL 3'34"37 3. Legacy Spec B (5AT) lap1- 1'19"55 lap2- 1'12"31 lap3- 1'12"50 [/quote] thats not that big of a difference at all[/quote] It is when you are racing and every second counts, these are excellent drivers too. The first lap definitely was to warm up the tires.

[PPower]

In watching the video, you can see how the MT blows past the AT car. It is really up in the air as to how much hp differential there really is between the two cars. Definitely a stick for me.

[SUBE555]

I love MT's because you can modulate them so much more!

[EJ20H-TT]

I know in Japan auto's outnumber manuals is the US the same ? Learning to drive a stick isn't that hard but why do so few try?

[EJ20H-TT]

I also hear that their are some GT running in Japan with a 6 speed box - presume non factory tho.

[gtguy]

[quote name='EJ20H-TT']I know in Japan auto's outnumber manuals is the US the same ? Learning to drive a stick isn't that hard but why do so few try?[/quote] An automatic is perceived in the USDM as being more advanced. The manual is for cheapskates looking to save $1000 or so off the cost of a new car. The other thing is that American's aren't really into driving. We're into using our cars to get places, but we don't want to actually have to drive, as in pay attention to the car. Make it nice and quiet with an automatic transmission, so that I can do other stuff while driving, like take phone calls or eat. People would try if they perceived some value in learning. The manuals will always be for cheapskates and enthusiasts only. Kevin

[SUBE555]

A lot of the people I've talked to they haven't tried because they either percieve it as too much work (lazy) or think its too hard to try. I learned in a weekend.

[PPower]

Automatics should sell about 80% and maybe even higher. Part of this becomes forced by the dealers as they will order their inventory with automatics to bump up the selling price as well. It's mainly from consumer demand, but dealers do help to perpetuate the trend. BMW sells a greater percentage of manuals than any other sedan manufacturer (leaving out Porsche- majority Tiptronic, Ferrari- majority F1, etc). However, I understand that BMW also has a very high percentage of trade ins for people to change for an automatic. My guess is that in the US, if you want a manual (especially a Limited), you'd better order it instead of looking for the right one on the dealer's lot.

[SUBE555]

I wish everyone would have to learn manual in drivers education and have to take the test with it. Would make people much more proficient and aware drivers hopefully. The U.S. is so lazy. Then again, look at the weight problem with many people. :roll:

[gurpman]

I guess resale value and reliability are two other factors. When it's time to sell the car I think it'll be harder to find a buyer for a manual. I live in a small town in the southern U.S. so demand for Subies is pretty low to begin with. Good thing I plan to keep the car a long time. Aren't auto transmissions generally more likely to have problems and more expensive to fix? Then again, with a manual you're looking at eventual clutch replacement right? Or do clutches last a long time these days assuming you're a decent driver?

[Tin_pusher]

I used to always have cars with manual transmissions. Right now I have an auto, and 95% of the time I prefer it. When you spend a lot of time in stop and go traffic the auto is so much more convenient. I like the idea of the auto-shift mode, so you can choose to shift if you desire to. I've also noticed that some auto transmissions are getting as good or better mileage as the manuals these days. I suppose this is because the computer knows the most efficient shift points in day to day driving.

[PPower]

Part of the reason for equal or better mileage with an automatic is that many times, the gearing is taller than for a manual like in the case of the Legacy. Comparing a 5MT to a 5AT with taller gears, the auto will at least be as efficient. The gearing makes up for drivetrain losses through the auto I imagine. An auto will be more expensive to repair than a manual usually because it is more complex with more parts to go wrong. However, you won't be making any 5th to 2nd shifts to blow the engine, and you won't be revving it to 5k rpm and dumping the clutch. If you consider the SMG/F1/Cambiacorsa type transmissions, they even rev-match on downshifts. They are much easier on the transmission than virtually anybody can be with a manual. However, I am doubtful that the 5AT will be able to handle the same amount of power as the reinforced 5MT. That's the big thing to me.

[kage]

Preston, The VTD system has the ability to counteract for slip faster than the VC system on the manual. We're talking tenths of a second difference here, but for some people that's significant. The easy way to state it is that under some conditions, the VTD will react and compensate for slip BEFORE any given tire has slipped. That's impossible with the VC, or any purely mechanical system. For some people that's "more advanced". To me, it's just interfering with my driving. Traction control, drive by wire, and all these other "smart" systems do exactly what I DON'T want: remove me from the driving experience. I'm more than happy to feel when slippage occurs and compensate accordingly. The other major difference between VTD and the VC system is that you can alter the default torque split to be biased more toward the rear (or front). Again, how beneficial this is is debatable.

[PPower]

Thanks Kage. As for altering the default settings, I almost wonder how effective that really is. Once there becomes any slipping, the settings automatically change in the distribution.

[kage]

Yes, but on dry roads, slippage shouldn't be an issue. So the theory is, that on most days, you're driving at the default 35/65, and therefore have less tendency to plow.

[PPower]

US cars are set at 45/55. I wonder why they adjusted it when other countries seem to get the 35/65. You said that you can change the default setting. Is this a DIY mod? I've never heard about it.