AMT4SWA Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I currently drive an IS300 (Altezza) with E-Shift and I actually really like it. E-Shift is a steering wheel button activated 5 spd AT exactly like the new Subaru "Sportshift" with a fully automatic mode or a manual "Sportshift" mode (you use a button to up and down shift...no clutch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtmy04 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I'll try to keep this relatively brief, but I could probably fill a few pages. Firstly, this is how the 5AT operates (and I wasn't fully aware of all this until after I got the car). In 'D' it operates as a standard auto. The shifts are very smooth and in most cases imperceptable. At any time you can use one of the steering wheel buttons to change up or down (within rev/road speed limits). The unit 'senses' the conditions and will hold that gear until conditions change e.g. you're cruising in 5, flick the '-' button twice to shift back to 3 to overtake, the tranny will hold 3 until you ease off the gas or flick the '+' button to change up. If you do ease off the auto will change back up and revert to 'D' mode. The transmission has yaw sensors to recognise when you're hammering it around a long curve (read freeway on-ramps, etc) and will hold the gear. In most cases this works very well, although it can sometimes be fooled e.g. if you shift down and then ease off for a moment and then hit the gas again to find it's in 5th. In 'D' the green 'D' light on the dash is on until you manually shift, then the gear indicator comes on with an up and/or down arrow to let you know which gear you can grab. When you shift the lever to the right (I assume it may be to the left in US cars??) it goes into 'Sport' mode. Sport is basically 'D' with higher shift points, etc. Just an interesting side issue - Sport is deactivated when the cruise control is turned on :?: :!: In 'Sport' you have a SPORT light lit on the dash and the gear indicator operates, but without the up and down shift arrows - because the auto is still doing the work. From Sport you can now use either the buttons or the shift lever to step into Manual mode. The SPORT light goes off, and the up/down arrows appear at the appropriate time. What I like about the manual mode is the transmission will not think it's smarter than you and try and change. The exception is when you're lazy and slow down for lights, etc it will change down when the road speed is too low to maintain a gear. But it will hold a lower gear up to (and after) the rev limiter cuts in. I've driven both Audi A4 and our local Ford Falcon, and neither system comes close - because sooner or later the transmission will intervene and think it's time for a change. These in my opinion are gimmicky and just get annoying, so that you just end up using the car as a full auto. The Subaru is enjoyable to drive every day, and the local press have also given it rave reviews saying it's probably the best auto they've driven (inc BMW, etc). Anyway, bet you're glad I kept it brief. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='gurpman'] Also, as I understand it, the AWD system is different between the auto and manual. Which is considered superior? Thanks for any insights.[/quote] The auto has a better AWD system. Like the WRX, the automatic gets VTD Variable Torque Distribution which I understand to be very close to the auto mode of the STi's DCCD. It uses a planetary center differential with an electronically managed continuously variable transfer clutch. There was somebody on NASIOC from the ole trunkmonkey crew who has done a LOT of experimentation with this setup. I may have to check out [url]www.trunkmonkey.com[/url] to see if there is information there. Basically, you can do rally style e-brake turns in the auto, but you better not try it in the manual. What I want to know is why we can't get VTD in the manual transmission cars. I always seem to get VDC (vehicle dynamics control) of the Outback mixed up with VTD. Anybody else? I have ahard time believing that traction control is really needed in these cars but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJ20H-TT Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Thx for that - very well written That's auto sounds very impressive. Anybody out there thinking twice about the manual now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 my left foot gets really bored when i drive automatic and that's one of the reason i'm gettin manual :) Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 more, Peter. MORE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='team23jordan']my left foot gets really bored when i drive automatic and that's one of the reason i'm gettin manual :)[/quote] Does your right hand get bored as well? :shock: ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 yah that too but not as much as my left foot Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtmy04 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='PPower']more, Peter. MORE![/quote] If I had the option when I bought the GT, I would've gone for a manual - but I don't regret it now. I'd suggest anyone considering th GT take both auto and manual for a decent drive before you make a decision. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Ppower you have coolest name ever! 8) usually pimps have name "PETER" :lol: Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtmy04 Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='team23jordan']Ppower you have coolest name ever! 8) usually pimps have name "PETER" :lol:[/quote] Notice I haven't filled in occupation in my profile (if I was I reckon I'd have all your money). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote name='team23jordan']Ppower you have coolest name ever! 8) usually pimps have name "PETER" :lol:[/quote] Actually, it's Preston. :lol: My dad's name is Richard (goes by that), so Dick isn't too far from Peter. :lol: If I have a daughter, her name will be Portia Power cause I love the name and it just rawks with Power. Portia Carrera Power? nah, that's too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goneskiian Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 [quote]Anybody out there thinking twice about the manual now ?[/quote] OK. I'm considering it now. I would have jumped right in with a vote for manual but this sounds really cool. 8) :lol: Guess I'll have to drive 'em both. :wink: :wink: -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zevil Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I am thinking twice about the manual. i think it would be a lot of fun to drive with the psuedo-manumatic. I like the idea of being able to hit the ebrake and get sideways quicker around corners in snow and such. I WANT TO HEAR MORE ABOUT IT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasugai Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I currently drive a Land Rover Freelander with the sport mode option and frankly, I've engaged it maybe once or twice. I don't know, call me old-fashioned but this option just doesn't feel like driving a manual - which I think of as real driving. All decisions - good and bad- in manual driving are mine, never to be intruded upon by some computer that thinks it knows better. Sorry to anthropomorphize. I really, really miss my GT. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMT4SWA Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 How different are the two AWD systems that are tied to the two separate transmissions...I do not have any previous Scooby experience and this could make a difference for some with their choice...lets get real technical on this if you would, because I want to learn something new! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 The only difference in the AWD system is the center differential. The VTD is essentially like a limited slip because it disengages power going to slipping wheels and transfers power to the other wheels. This is why you can do e-brake turns without affecting the AWD. The rear wheels are "slipping", so the power is transferred to the front wheels. The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time. If you pull the emergency brake with the gas pedal, the rears are still going to be trying to move. You'll end up breaking the e-brake or something in the drivetrain. It would not be pretty. This is an extreme example since you shouldn't ever be doing e-brake turns anyway, but it is good to show the point. In the STi, the DCCD (Driver Controlled Center Differential) can be adjusted for forward, rear or anything in between bias. On snow, forward bias is supposed to be better, and rearward would be preferred on the track. It also has an AUTO mode that most people will keep it in at all times. This auto mode is the VTD. To learn about it, you should really look up DCCD threads as there is much more expertise than I can gather. This is just the little bit that I remember and as I remember it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurpman Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote name='PPower']The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time.[/quote] I was under the impression that both AWD systems (manual and auto) send more torque to the front or rear when slippage occurs. The manual has 50/50 front/rear torque split only under normal conditions. Do you disagree or did I misunderstand your post? The AWD on the auto splits torque 35/65 front/rear under normal conditions. It seems like if you lock the rear wheels with the e-brake, the front wheels are "slipping", so more torque will be sent to the rear, causing possible damage. Maybe I'm dense but I don't understand why this wouldn't happen with both AWD systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote name='PPower']The only difference in the AWD system is the center differential. The VTD is essentially like a limited slip because it disengages power going to slipping wheels and transfers power to the other wheels. This is why you can do e-brake turns without affecting the AWD. The rear wheels are "slipping", so the power is transferred to the front wheels. The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time. If you pull the emergency brake with the gas pedal, the rears are still going to be trying to move. You'll end up breaking the e-brake or something in the drivetrain. It would not be pretty. This is an extreme example since you shouldn't ever be doing e-brake turns anyway, but it is good to show the point. In the STi, the DCCD (Driver Controlled Center Differential) can be adjusted for forward, rear or anything in between bias. On snow, forward bias is supposed to be better, and rearward would be preferred on the track. It also has an AUTO mode that most people will keep it in at all times. This auto mode is the VTD. To learn about it, you should really look up DCCD threads as there is much more expertise than I can gather. This is just the little bit that I remember and as I remember it.[/quote] so legacy's AWD's always 50/50?? is that what you are saying?? :?: Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMT4SWA Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 So if this is the case then the 5 spd Auto has a HUGE advantage over the 5 spd manual in adverse driving conditions (rain, snow, ice, hard cornering)? Help me out here...why would Subaru set this up this way...I'm confused??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote name='gurpman'][quote name='PPower']The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time.[/quote] I was under the impression that both AWD systems (manual and auto) send more torque to the front or rear when slippage occurs. The manual has 50/50 front/rear torque split only under normal conditions. Do you disagree or did I misunderstand your post? The AWD on the auto splits torque 35/65 front/rear under normal conditions. It seems like if you lock the rear wheels with the e-brake, the front wheels are "slipping", so more torque will be sent to the rear, causing possible damage. Maybe I'm dense but I don't understand why this wouldn't happen with both AWD systems.[/quote] Somebody please correct me as I need it often. I understood that the torque split stays 50/50 all the time. It is only on the automatic that varies the torque front to rear because of the VTD. About the e-brake turn, I'm sure I didn't explain it properly. The wheels stopping from pulling the brake would not be the same as slipping. I don't really know how to technically explain it. With the center differential being able to transfer back and forth f/r, it is going to be more OK for the front to be spinning and the rears stopped. When power is sent equally f/r all the time, surely you can see how locking the rears is going to cause a problem to the driveshafts. the front still wants to turn, but the rear is at a stop. :shock: Something has to give, and it won't be cheap whatever it is. Why does Subaru set it up this way? Maybe it is to give more incentive to buy an automatic. It is this way on the Impreza line as well, yet the manual still handles better. Just like how many people dispute the value of DCCD, the value of VTD (DCCD-auto mode) may also be questioned. I would prefer a front lsd over the center any day. For those wondering about how the auto handles compared to the manual, you should hunt down a copy of Best Motoring from August (I believe). Included in the wagon test were Audi RS6, Spec B manual, Spec B auto, Toyota Caldina, and Volvo V70 T-5. 1. Legacy Spec B (5MT) lap1- 1'15"06 lap2- 1'09"61 lap3- 1'09"71 [b]TOTAL 3'34"37[/b] 2. Audi RS6 Avant lap1- 1'15"70 lap2- 1'09"69 lap3- 1'10"66 TOTAL 3'36"05 3. Legacy Spec B (5AT) lap1- 1'19"55 lap2- 1'12"31 lap3- 1'12"50 [b]TOTAL 3'44"36[/b] 4. Toyota Caldina lap1- 1'19"07 lap2- 1'13"62 lap3- 1'12"68 TOTAL 3'45"37 5. Volvo T-5 (why not V70R?) lap1- 1'23"06 lap2- 1'16"63 lap3- 1'16"40 TOTAL 3'56"09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Since I'm not an expert, I figured I would search for VTD where I know there are some. I did find enough info to say DO NOT, DO NOT do e-brake turns w/ or w/o VTD. I am not sure of the exact differences between VTD and DCCD-A, but it could be that VTD is more like the last generation DCCD-Auto that johnfelstead has in his STi V RA. Read the following threads if you like to get an edumacation: [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=296350&highlight=VTD]DCCD Discussion thread (merged)[/url] [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2371342]A walk-through of the VTD-AWD system...[/url] [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=286159&highlight=VTD]4EAT "center diff" Question[/url] This shows WRX VTD to be 45/55 f/r split under normal conditions That should be plenty. Those have the most information of the few pages of threads to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtmy04 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 [quote name='EJ20H-TT']Great you have a GT - we need pictures - tells how she handles[/quote] I've posted some pictures into the Photo Albums section - Personal 2005 Legacy photo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 how much power do you figure you lose in the automatic transmission? you'll always get more power to the wheels with a manual. i'm planning on switching from a manual wrx and i'm going to be giving up something in acceleration anyway. anyone have an idea how much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 No, both cars vary torque according to conditions. The default setting for the manual, however, is 50/50. But it does vary. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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