Opensource VS AP

[JoeFromPA]

Hey guys, thanks for all the information in this thread. Due to the arguing, you have convinced me.

 

I'm selling my car and buying a 3 cylinder Smart.

[Innovative Tuning]

NSFW: You make some excellent points. Everyone has different needs. You actually bring up a scenario that illustrates that very well. It's one I had never thought of. You log, then go home to make adjustments. The AP could datalog while you drive, then you could go home and adjust the tune on a desktop. In a case like yours the AP would save you from buying a laptop IF you bought one just to tune the car and didn't already have one. For most people, street tuning their own cars they drive/log, then pull over and park somewhere, make changes, then go again so a laptop is a necessity no matter what software they run.

 

I'm not aware of a way for tuners using Cobb to keep people from logging, but maybe that's a future feature being worked on. Actually the main reason logging was added was so users could check on their cars and see how they're running because some tuners were having issues. They did make it so you can't view someone else's mapping and recently they made it so people can't share custom maps if the tuner wants to lock a map to an AccessPORT which is great for tuners. It's also great for consumers who would unwittingly put a map for another car on theirs and almost definitely have problems because their car is different.

 

Those tuning their own car often go with open source. If you're going to learn you want the more behind the scenes look at the tuning software and you get that with open source. Also, many of those tuning themselves are doing it because they feel it's saving them money so that's another reason. Of course a lot of them cause damage that costs them more than having the car tuned right in the first place, but your example of a professional screwing up the tune is a valid one. It's unfortunate, but some tuners simply should not be tuning cars. A current thread on NASIOC comes to mind where one is finally taking a bath after putting a lot of people in bad situations.

 

 

 

testes1010 I'm not here to compete with you or anyone else so I don't see why you're pounding your chest at me. All I was doing is explaining the differences between open source vs. AP as the original poster asked. Where's the love??? You're the only one who has mentioned complication of tuning a car in this thread. You accused me of inflating the number of tables I tune so I listed some of them that you didn't include on your list.

[lepich]

With a custom tune, the car is tuned specifically to your car with you exact mods. No two cars are exactly the same and won't run the same. With a custom tune, the tuner adjusts everything according your how your car runs. OTS maps are generic maps that are uber-conserative so that they will work with every car and most aftermarket products (as even those affect your car differently). A cobb intake and downpipe will give you different results than a SPT intake and invidia downpipe (for example). In fact you could have one 08 LGT with cobb intake/dp will and another 08 LGT with the same setup and it perform differently. The tuner will adjust everything in order to get the car to perform at it's peak and the tune might be slightly different for one car vs the other. Then you add in location. A car in Texas will need to be tuned differently than a car in Colorado because of elevation and temperature. You might not want to be as aggressive with the tune on the car in Texas because of the heat, whereas you could do a little more with the cooler temps in Colorado. The OTS maps, don't do that. They adjust the same values in the same way no matter what your car is, what is has on it or where it is.

 

This is why having a custom tune is FAR superior to the OTS maps. The tuner gets to make an adjustment and see exactly how the car responded and then make a further adjustment. OTS maps are set and aren't adjusted from car to car (if they are, you have just received a "custom tune") and thus they need to be more on the conservative side.

 

Hope what I just wrote makes sense.

 

this is exactly what I've meant:-). Looks like I get OP question "Op v.s AP" as not software related, but in general why some people us an OP and tune themselfs and some pay money and use AP + OTS maps. (not taliking about protune, as this is a best in any case). So, i get it wrong, my bad.

If it was really about software, i thnik cobb AP is easier to deal with for a protuner and driver, with real time maps feature. i

[testes1010]

testes1010 I'm not here to compete with you or anyone else so I don't see why you're pounding your chest at me. All I was doing is explaining the differences between open source vs. AP as the original poster asked. Where's the love??? You're the only one who has mentioned complication of tuning a car in this thread. You accused me of inflating the number of tables I tune so I listed some of them that you didn't include on your list.

 

I apologize if seems I am throwing stones, that is not my intention. We're both here to contribute to the Subaru community, it just seems that many tuners 'pretend' this is rocket science, that anything less than a 'Protune/Professional Tune' is inadequate and unsafe. When I read your first post I took it as tuning is overly complicated & should be left to the 'pro's'.

[Verwilderd]

Lepich: I am actually wondering all of the above...I am curious what people chose and what motivated them to go that route. What were the benefits they saw in that route v.s the other. So everyone is really touching on my question. But this is all good! I hope even more people give their input, as I (and I hope others) are learning more about (not nessecarily the how-to's of) tuning. Hopefully this thread will help someone decide which way they want to go by viewing what others out there are doing and why they chose to go that way.

 

 

 

When I first joined this community, I mainly surfed it and read various threads before I decided to start posting, and at the time, I mostly saw people with the AP and got almost got the sense that the accessport was what you needed in order to get your car tuned. I myself almost went that way and after running across a tuner asked about it and found that for me, it wasn't a good fit and almost sunk $1000 (AP+protune) into something that for me I wasn't going to realize the full benefit of.

 

So after learning a little about both, I decided to start searching around to learn more about the differences between the two, and why people were using what they using. I found that this information was scattered over many, many threads, so I figured I would start this one so that there was one place a person could go to in order to learn of the differences and what people saw as benefits in the way they chose to go. This way they could find other people that did some of the things they wanted to accomplish with their car (or decided on exactly what they want to accomplish with their car) and hopefully make a more educated decision with respects to their car.

 

So I am really enjoying reading everyone's posts (even the seemingly little tiffs between people). As I learn more and more about this stuff, I am finding that there is a big debate between which is better. What I have learned so far, is that neither is "better". Only is only better than the other if it suites the person's needs. So hopefully here people can make better judgments when making this decision and save some money or some time.

 

So please keep this going!!!

[testes1010]

What I have learned so far, is that neither is "better". Only is only better than the other if it suites the person's needs.

 

Something that I think ALL will agree on is the decision made on 'who' will be tuning moreso than what software they are tuning 'with' determines the performance gains, longevity and reliability of the tune not the platform. All reflashes(Opensource, CobbAP, & Ecutek) are doing the exact same thing, they are writing to an OEM ECU. So in the end the performance & reliability is deemed by the tuner.

[Innovative Tuning]

What I have learned so far, is that neither is "better". Only is only better than the other if it suites the person's needs.

Absolutely.

 

 

testes:

Sorry if I somehow gave that impression. I'm just trying to contribute to the thread. I was once a noob like everyone else.

 

I wasn't going to get into this at all since it's not the subject of the thread, but since I contributed a bunch to the original topic and others have touched on it I'm allowing myself to go OT a little. I'll continue the AP vs. open source discussion too.

 

A good professional tune should always be better than a self tune by someone inexperienced. However, a professional tune is not always better, as members have already mentioned and trust can be an issue. Some professionals have less understanding than those tuning their own cars, but I feel that's not overly common. The more common issues are carelessness, rushing through a job that isn't high profile like tuning a stock or stg2 vehicle, or letting ego get in the way of safely tuning some cars and pushing things farther than prudent for the customer's needs. Obviously none of that should ever happen, but neither should hate crimes etc. and check out the news for a sobering taste of reality.

 

I learned to tune after spending a few years reading some books on engines dynamics and tuning, and talking at length with a friend who had been tuning his own car for a bit. I recommend everyone do their research before they think about making changes to their tune. Don't do anything until you have a basic understanding of what you're changing, why you're changing it, and what you want the result to be. That understanding will grow a huge amount over time, but at least have a basic understanding to start. Also, do not start changing things if you don't understand all three of those things. One or two is only enough to get you in trouble.

 

After researching for a while I took delivery of a WRX in spring 2001 and then started making changes extremely cautiously when the UTEC first came out. The tune I could perform now would be better than what I did then in a number of ways, despite my lengthy preparation. The tune itself would be more optimized in terms of power, drivability, and efficiency. The tuning process would be dramatically more efficient. I'd have much better reasoning behind each change I made, as well as lots of experience to back my choices. All that said, that doesn't mean the tune I made back then was unsafe or bad and I'm not trying to give the impression that self tuning always ends badly i.e. engine failure. Again...this is how I started out tuning my own car and it ran fine. I played with it for years and sold it with perfect compression and leakdown. I was honestly expecting it to show some signs of abuse from non tuning related use, but leakdown was 0-2% across all four and I was happy as a clam.

 

Unfortunately I was far more prepared than most seem to be and engine failures happen often when people attempt self tuning. Some people make posts like..."what AFR is good to tune to?" or "how much boost is good?" and you have to shake your head and wait for the inevitable engine failure post because those questions illustrate a dangerous lack of understanding. Lets face it...tuning is not rocket science, but some of the concepts are difficult for some people to grasp, generally because they want everything to be cut and dry, right and wrong. People want to hear that they need to tune their car to X psi and Y AFR because that's best, but that's simply not how tuning works. Readings you see along the way, usage considerations, fuel(s) used and other things will cause you to adjust your plans along the way.

 

The best way I've thought of to describe it is as follows:

Tuning is not like paint by numbers. There are methods and processes involved, but you cannot follow along with a simple set of instructions and end up with a masterpiece. You have to have an actual understanding of what you're doing, and you may have to adjust your original plans along the way for it to work out well in the end.

 

Many years and thousands of cars tuned later I'm still methodical and careful in tuning, so there is a process to it, but as your understanding and experience grow you learn what you really need to be cautious about specifically so you can focus in on those things better and so on. So again...an experienced and knowledgeable professional should arrive at a better tune when given the opportunity to do so, but you have to find the right tuner. Talk to them as well as some people whose cars they've tuned first because you do have to trust your tuner if the relationship is going to work.

 

People should also know that tuning isn't just about the tune itself. A good tuner will be able to troubleshoot drivability issues that are caused by mechanical incompatibility, poorly made parts, poor installation, and so on. Vehicle specific knowledge is a huge plus here! For example, I get calls from people who want me to tune their car because it runs poorly only to have them come in and as soon as I pop the hood I know what the problem is...and it's not the tune. That's not because I'm a rocket scientist...it's simply because I've seen the problem before. Years ago I may have fought with the tune for a while and then started scratching my head. Now I see most issues before I even start tuning, if there's going to be one. Being at a shop that does repairs/installs helps a lot because you get to see more of what causes problems and what works so I recommend people choose a tuner that's around the mechanical side of things as well if possible, but that's not a make or break type criteria.

 

OK back on topic...I forgot to mention that you can switch maps in realtime with the AP and some of my customers do this. They'll be at a light and a Civic will rev at them so they load up their "hot street map" vs they're "conservative street map" and off they go. Some people just want one tune for everything. That's fine too. In that case the AP realtime map switching advantage does not apply.

[NSFW]

I'm not aware of a way for tuners using Cobb to keep people from logging, but maybe that's a future feature being worked on. Actually the main reason logging was added was so users could check on their cars and see how they're running because some tuners were having issues. They did make it so you can't view someone else's mapping and recently they made it so people can't share custom maps if the tuner wants to lock a map to an AccessPORT which is great for tuners.

 

The catch is that one can reverse-engineer a tune via logging. I heard that Cobb was allowing tuners to disable logging for this reason. Not being a Cobb owner I haven't bothered to find out if that's actually true, but it isn't much different from locking the tune so it seems plausible.

[Innovative Tuning]

I hear ya. You can definitely see a whole lot by logging and that does bug some tuners. You can't see things like intake air temp compensation of wastegate duty, ignition timing etc., but you can see the bulk of the tune for sure. FWIW there's no mention of this in the ProTUNER section of the Cobb forums at the moment.

[LittleBlueGT]

Having used both for the past few years I have this to add:

 

Real time tuning is great if you are doing a whole bunch of changes at once, or if you are paying someone per hour to tune a set-up that requires a ton of changes (not talking about a simple stage2 with the odd other bolt-on bit).

 

For those of us that do a couple of logs on the way to work, look at the logs, make a change or two, and repeat (over the course of a number of months) OS tuning hardly adds any time to the mix.

 

You just install a switch (don't think this applies applies to the 07+ cars) instead of always connecting the green things under the dash, and do your new flash every couple of days.

 

I am not one to shy away from a mod due to money.

 

Case in point. I am actively researching a new STI (09 or 10 model year). I will be dropping $30,000 into the car within about 3 months of ownership.

 

-FR TS GT35R, on meth

-full coil-overs w/ adjustable control arms, camber plates, etc....

 

In other words, the good stuff, a good DD a good track car, all in the car will cost me about $80,000 CAD ($60,000 US).

 

I will probably go OS tuning, I have looked into COBBs ATR (I have the old ST-AD) and spent a ton of time talking to Justin, Christian, and others at COBB trying to get things like per/cyl/timing comp added in. They finally have it after months of bugging them, but the still TTBOMK use a td value (one psi = about 52.7 on their td scale) and you can't log td proportional or integral, just td value (which is just boost error in a harder to understand way).

 

If I see the value in going with an AP, I will do it, but for my needs I don't.

[merchgod]

Cobb's biggest advantage is real-time tuning and map switching. If you need a number of different maps (say you want to run E85/100 octane/valet, etc. map at times) and you don't want to carry around a laptop to switch maps, then an AP could be very worth it to you. In the time crunch scenario of a dyno tune, Cobb's RT tuning can make a notable difference, a greater difference depending on how unusual your setup is compared to the pro-tuners starting "base" maps that he's developed from working on other customer's cars with similar mods. The downside is that most (almost all?) Cobb protuners will lock the tune. If you need to tweak the tune later yourself, you can't and will have to go back to the tuner who may charge you. Also, I'm not sure about this, but it is my understanding that another Cobb protuner can't open the locked map from another tuner? Say you move or want to go to a different tuner, they can't start with your custom tune? If you have a local tuner you trust and are good at what they do, most of these downsides will be mitigated. A good shop will usually do some tweaks to the original map for free.

 

RomRaider/Ecuflash's biggest advantage is cost (only $80-$180 for the cable, depending on which one you get/need) and DIY tuning. The community is excellent with a number of great self-tuners that are more than willing to help you out. Cobb does have its free Racetuner, but the community is not nearly as good, plus you get no tuning support from Cobb. With OS, you can actually ask questions about ECU logic from those that actually reverse-engineer the ECU (for example, what does this table do and how does it fit into the broader logic?). There are also a number of stickies and post going into detail about ECU logic (with examples using RomRaider/Ecuflash) that you won't find elsewhere. With Cobb, you are on your own - they offer no support in this manner for RaceTuner.

 

Having seen Racetuner recently, I can also say that RomRaider/Ecuflash table naming conventions and units are much more consistent than RaceTuner. Cobb tends to present a bunch of different unit conversions that are not very logical (for example, present one table in psi and another using the raw mmHg value). And a lot of time their units have no description, leaving a user to guess what it represents. Some tables that are closely related in function/logic have completely different names/descriptions. Not a big deal if you are already familiar with the software, but if you are a DIY tuner starting out, I think the OS solutions are much easier to learn (and you will get answers about table function/logic from those that do the reverse-engineering). Also, I think the UI is better with RomRaider/Ecuflash. You can view as many tables as you want, even from different ROMs. Cobb you are limited to viewing one table at a time and only one ROM at time. Obviously, I'm from a potentially biased perspective, so take it for what is is, but I think I'm being fair here.

 

The disadvantages of OS is that you have to be fairly computer literate. Computer noobs need not apply. You have to download multiple programs/utilities to use it (and to make the most of it), whereas Cobb has most of this type of functionality integrated into one piece of software (or hardware in the case of the AP). If you are a computer noob and just want to flash your car with an OTS map, the AP is a much better choice. There are some things in OS that are not as fully developed as Cobb's stuff - for example, wideband o2 integration is more limited and graphing in RomRaider is not as good. Also, you are not supported by a big company. If there's is a bug with the OS stuff that causes you to lose your motor, you are on your own (use at entirely your own risk). If that occurs with Cobb, they have the financial muster to possibly make it right. And if they don't, then you have someone to take to court (not so with OS). Although, you do have Tactrix backing up the OS community when it comes to flashing - if there's a bug with the OpenPort or flashing with Ecuflash that would cause you to have a bricked ECU, Colby will make it right and recover it for you. But that is about the limit of the "responsibility" for OS.

 

If you think that Cobb is always on the forefront of advancement/discovery and OS is always trailing behind, you'd be wrong. Sometimes OS discovers things first, sometimes Cobb. For example, the per cylinder timing comp that suddenly being discussed on this board and others was available in RomRaider/Ecuflash long before Cobb. RomRaider's logger allow you to log upwards of 50+ parameters not available in commercial loggers. Logging parameters such as FBKC have been available in RomRaider for several years and Cobb is just now adding that particular parameter. There are other example as well. That is not to say that Cobb isn't first as well - they had CAN support long before OS. Just to point out that OS isn't some sub-standard application always playing catch-up. There are also things you can do with OS that you can't with the commercial software. It has had support for naturally aspirated 05+ DBW models for a long time now and Cobb is only now discussing adding support for them. It has also had full support for Subaru ECUs from around the world - ADM, SADM, JDM, EDM from the beginning. Other cool things like RR's MAF tool and the community's various tuning spreadsheets, I don't think you'll find with the commercial offerings.

 

So, sorry for the long-winded post. One of these choices is not better than the other. It depends on YOU and what your needs are.

[Innovative Tuning]

Excellent points guys. I did notice one thing you said merchgod...that Cobb doesn't explain what things do. If you hit F1 there's a detailed description of what every table does in ProTUNER. Sometimes it gets into how things work AND what they do. I'm guessing it's in Racetuner, but maybe not. Check it out.

 

There's also the Cobb forums for discussion of tuning, but the open source forums have more info on self tuning.

 

I honestly find the way Romraider keeps tables open until you close them a waste of time. I go between too many tables to want them all open so clicking on a table and having ProTUNER switch to it is better for me. Again this can just be a preference issue.

 

I also love that with ProTUNER I can make say an 02-03 WRX mapping for stage 2 that I want to use as my base flash, and flash it on any 02-03 WRX. I don't have to worry about what ECU code it was or transfer an immobilizer code on a newer model. The AccessPORT takes care of all that for you.

 

To be clear I'm not defending ProTUNER...it's just that I seem to be the only one in the thread that uses it so I want to tell it's side of the story.

[merchgod]

Excellent points guys. I did notice one thing you said merchgod...that Cobb doesn't explain what things do. If you hit F1 there's a detailed description of what every table does in ProTUNER. Sometimes it gets into how things work AND what they do. I'm guessing it's in Racetuner, but maybe not. Check it out.

Well, I did look at that when I took a look at RaceTuner. It does have some detailed description for some parameters with tuning tips (most of the commonly tuned ones). Most of it is pretty decent, however, some are vague and one said something to the effect of "I don't know what this table does", as if whoever was making up the help text was making a note to himself. RomRaider has help text for every table. But help text, by itself, which is a general description, is not enough. On the RomRaider site, you can actually talk to those that do the reverse-engineering of the factory ECU. I try to answer every question as it relates to ECU logic from the work that I've done. So, if there's a question about what a table or logging parameter in RR/EF does/represents, how it fits into the big picture, etc., there's always a ready answer. You can also read the detailed stickies on boost control, cl/ol transition, and knock control with examples referenced towards RomRaider/Ecuflash (not to mention discussion about other ECU logic in the ECU analysis forum). Cobb has a few tuning guides available, but nothing that goes into the detail of those stickies. And there's also better tuning help on RomRaider (much better IMO) than Cobb forums.

 

Cobb protuners probably get good support in this regard. That makes sense as RaceTuner is supposed have the same table access/capability as the ProTuner software. So, the pro-tuners are paying extra for support and the RT user gets what ever is available from other customers in their forums.

 

I also love that with ProTUNER I can make say an 02-03 WRX mapping for stage 2 that I want to use as my base flash, and flash it on any 02-03 WRX. I don't have to worry about what ECU code it was or transfer an immobilizer code on a newer model. The AccessPORT takes care of all that for you.

There's no immobilizer stored in any ROM regardless. Besides the fact the 16-bit ECU doesn't have an immobilizer. Protuner isn't doing anything special as far as having one ROM for the 02-03 WRX. You can flash an 02 WRX map with OS on an 03 WRX in the same exact way - it is a function of the compatibility of these factory ROMs, not anything that Cobb does for you.

 

To be clear I'm not defending ProTUNER...it's just that I seem to be the only one in the thread that uses it so I want to tell it's side of the story.

That's fine. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other either. It just depends on the person and their needs. RaceTuner has generally the same capability as ProTuner, doesn't it, other than the ability to tune multiple vehicles and the support you get from Cobb?

[Airboy]

 

If you think that Cobb is always on the forefront of advancement/discovery and OS is always trailing behind, you'd be wrong. Sometimes OS discovers things first, sometimes Cobb. For example, the per cylinder timing comp that suddenly being discussed on this board and others was available in RomRaider/Ecuflash long before Cobb. RomRaider's logger allow you to log upwards of 50+ parameters not available in commercial loggers. Logging parameters such as FBKC have been available in RomRaider for several years and Cobb is just now adding that particular parameter. There are other example as well. That is not to say that Cobb isn't first as well - they had CAN support long before OS. Just to point out that OS isn't some sub-standard application always playing catch-up. There are also things you can do with OS that you can't with the commercial software. It has had support for naturally aspirated 05+ DBW models for a long time now and Cobb is only now discussing adding support for them. It has also had full support for Subaru ECUs from around the world - ADM, SADM, JDM, EDM from the beginning. Other cool things like RR's MAF tool and the community's various tuning spreadsheets, I don't think you'll find with the commercial offerings.

 

Extra timing compensation tables/logic that were introduced in 06+ WRX (LGT as well) were identified/accessible in RomRaider well before Cobb did anything about them. Even after Cobb was informed of the extra compensation tables, they chose not to fix their maps for the Version1 AP users. That was the level of "support" I received from Cobb when I had the AP for my WRX.

 

RomRaider (merchgod), on the other hand, had the tables identified within days of the original question and had means for users to verify the logic via data logging. These tables were critical in the control of ignition timing and even Cobb Protuner software didn't have access to them for a long time.

 

If you already have the AP2 and wants to tune the car yourself, Access Tuner Race (ATR) gives you a reason to not sell the AP2.

 

I have been using RomRaider/Ecuflash for years and have recently used ATR a bit. The inconsistency in (or lack of) units in some tables are a bit annoying. Even when using Live Tuning, I still data log with RR and analyze the data in Excel before making any changes in ATR.

[Innovative Tuning]

Merch there are some features in ProTUNER that are not available in RaceTUNER, but I'm not clear what all of them are or how many there are. The ones regarding locking maps would be unique, but I'm not sure what else is. I know there are some new features coming that we've been told will only be for the ProTUNER software. Sorry I can't be more help...again I haven't used RaceTUNER since I have ProTUNER.

[Sdrvr]

I want to thank the group for this informative thread. Just the sort of discussion on the merits of competing tools I've been looking for.

I have prior experience with GM tuning tools (HP Tuners), but the Subie world is new to me.

At this point, weighing the options and considering all the issues being discussed here before choosing the tool and/or going the DIY route or not. Probably will do my own tuning, but don't want to step into it uninformed.

 

Thanks again.

[Innovative Tuning]

Sdrvr I also tune HP Tuners. Whatever you tune your Subaru with you'll be happy to know that torque management (as GM uses it) has not entered the Subaru realm. The GM ECUs do have some cool features that Subaru does not i.e. different boost settings by gear as opposed to a single cutoff that Subaru added on the newer ECUs.

[Verwilderd]

I want to thank the group for this informative thread. Just the sort of discussion on the merits of competing tools I've been looking for.

I have prior experience with GM tuning tools (HP Tuners), but the Subie world is new to me.

At this point, weighing the options and considering all the issues being discussed here before choosing the tool and/or going the DIY route or not. Probably will do my own tuning, but don't want to step into it uninformed.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

I'm glad you found it helpful. This was my goal by starting this thread. Just out of curiousity, I was wondering why the thread had a face on it. I had looked at the forum rules and it said that meant probation, so I wasn't sure if that meant I was on probation or not (as I am new to the forums).

 

But anyway, glad you found it helpful. I wish I had all this information prior to tuning my car and spent a lot fo time searching and could only get bits and pieces of info I was looking for in various threads, so I wanted to start one where everything was all in one place.

 

I do think that I made the right choice (for me) in chosing the route I did (opensource). But in any case, having all this info would have opened my eyes up to the AP world. I did not know you could do all that stuff with the AP that you could. All I knew was that it had ots maps and that Cobb could ajust the maps for you if you wanted. I didn't really know that any person could go in a tune the AP. So this thread has been very helpful!

 

Please keep the posts coming!!!

[Verwilderd]

Now I have a question to add to the thread...

 

What does it take to tune with AP? Can any person (assuming they know what they're doing) go in and adjust the ots maps that the AP has, or does it take someone special to do so? I ask, because this might a reason why a person would choose OS over the AP. From what I kind of gather, most people who want a DIY tune go with OS. Does that mean you can't do it with the AP, or do people only go with OS because they don't have to spend $700 on the AP.

 

I am wondering, because the ots maps that the AP has might be good for someone brand new to tuning, but then later on as they learn more about it, they could then tune from that.

 

Just curious if that could be an option someone does as well.

[merchgod]

Merch there are some features in ProTUNER that are not available in RaceTUNER, but I'm not clear what all of them are or how many there are. The ones regarding locking maps would be unique, but I'm not sure what else is. I know there are some new features coming that we've been told will only be for the ProTUNER software. Sorry I can't be more help...again I haven't used RaceTUNER since I have ProTUNER.

So if a Cobb protuner locks a map, does that mean that another Cobb protuner also would not be to access it? That is, if say, you had a custom tune and then moved and wanted to go to another Cobb protuner, would they be able to work off that custom locked tune - load it, modify it?

[Verwilderd]

I would hope so! I think that would be stupid of Cobb to allow that. That would really turn people off to getting a protune on the AP. I know if my map was locked then I wouldn't want it. Plus, I would never trust the protuner who locked it because he could always change the price and you'd be forced to go back to him.

 

If that does happen, can you unmarry the AP and just start over with your tune (which you are almost doing, but not quite if you are needing a re-tune), or is the AP useless until it is unlocked?

 

I would almost say, to ask the tuner you use if he locks it, and if so I wouldn't use the person. Like someone said earlier, if the guy does a good job and you are happy with everything, there really is no need to lock it. The tuner should want to earn his return business, not force it. He/she won't last long if that is the case.

[Verwilderd]

I would hope so! I think that would be stupid of Cobb to allow that. That would really turn people off to getting a protune on the AP.

 

But I don't really know.

 

I just think locking tunes are stupid. I think in most cases the tune a person does isn't going to be soooo extreme that there is something really worth protecting. From what I gather, most people get roughly the same gains when they get tuned and have similar stuff. I don't think there a tuner out there that could get an extra 50whp/50wtq (SAFELY) from a tune and do something/know something that no one else out there does.

 

If that were to happen, I guess I could understand a person wanting to protect their stuff, but otherwise, I think that's dumb if tuner A can get 30whp/30wtq from a tune and tuner B get 32whp/32wtq (which is about the difference I see from tune to tune...there's only a couple of hp and tq difference between people's tunes).

[Airboy]

I would hope so! I think that would be stupid of Cobb to allow that. That would really turn people off to getting a protune on the AP. I know if my map was locked then I wouldn't want it. Plus, I would never trust the protuner who locked it because he could always change the price and you'd be forced to go back to him.

 

If that does happen, can you unmarry the AP and just start over with your tune (which you are almost doing, but not quite if you are needing a re-tune), or is the AP useless until it is unlocked?

 

I would almost say, to ask the tuner you use if he locks it, and if so I wouldn't use the person. Like someone said earlier, if the guy does a good job and you are happy with everything, there really is no need to lock it. The tuner should want to earn his return business, not force it. He/she won't last long if that is the case.

 

If your current map is locked, you can still use the AP to load in a different map.

 

A couple of months ago I tried to data log an '08 WRX to see how things are running. I couldn't connect to the ECU, even with Access Tuner Race because the stage2 e-map he bought from Rallitek is locked. Always nice to lose the ability to monitor the performance/health of your car.

 

At first I thought it was some setting in ATR that I missed so I asked over at the Cobb ATR forum. Nothing, no reply from Cobb.

[merchgod]

Yeah, I've heard that the lock prevents you from logging as well. Maybe that is one of the options to the lock. To some degree, I can understand why pro-tuners would want to prevent someone from seeing or messing with the map itself. They may want to prevent another pro-tuner from tuning from their map, screwing it up, and then blaming any bad results on the them. Or by preventing these unethical shops from messing with their tune - those that like to try to gain business by bashing their competitors regardless of the truth - "a customer came to me, the car ran like crap, it was tuned at [local competitor]..I took a look at their map and they certainly don't know what they are doing..." You can read about that kind of Nasioc drama in the PPB forum. It also keeps inexperienced customers from messing with the map and then blaming their screw-ups on the tuning shop. And some pro-tuners feel they've perfected a number of base maps over the years and do not want some new-on-the-scene shop to be able to copy or learn from it. Of course, there's probably some bad apples that use the lock as a cover for piss-poor or half-ass tuning.

 

Regardless, locking out the ability to log is log is retarded. I can somewhat understand the reasons to lock the ROM itself, but to prevent logging is a bit overboard and prevents the customer from being able to determine the safety of the tune at any given time.

[j255c]

Having used both for the past few years I have this to add:

 

Real time tuning is great if you are doing a whole bunch of changes at once, or if you are paying someone per hour to tune a set-up that requires a ton of changes (not talking about a simple stage2 with the odd other bolt-on bit).

 

For those of us that do a couple of logs on the way to work, look at the logs, make a change or two, and repeat (over the course of a number of months) OS tuning hardly adds any time to the mix.

 

You just install a switch (don't think this applies applies to the 07+ cars) instead of always connecting the green things under the dash, and do your new flash every couple of days.

 

I am not one to shy away from a mod due to money.

 

Case in point. I am actively researching a new STI (09 or 10 model year). I will be dropping $30,000 into the car within about 3 months of ownership.

 

-FR TS GT35R, on meth

-full coil-overs w/ adjustable control arms, camber plates, etc....

 

In other words, the good stuff, a good DD a good track car, all in the car will cost me about $80,000 CAD ($60,000 US).

 

I will probably go OS tuning, I have looked into COBBs ATR (I have the old ST-AD) and spent a ton of time talking to Justin, Christian, and others at COBB trying to get things like per/cyl/timing comp added in. They finally have it after months of bugging them, but the still TTBOMK use a td value (one psi = about 52.7 on their td scale) and you can't log td proportional or integral, just td value (which is just boost error in a harder to understand way).

 

If I see the value in going with an AP, I will do it, but for my needs I don't.

 

Sounds like you should get a nissan gtr .