Rika Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 any update? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 1) ordered pipe, welder waiting for it2) VEI is making me a custom panel digital gauge display for the cubby, which will show IAT (pre-IC), IAT (post-IC), IC water temp, and regular stuff if anyone's interested (EGT, AFR, trans temp, oil pressure) - it'll take probably 4 weeks for that though, but I think it's worth the wait. It's been busy here despite the economy, so I'm not sure when it's all going on the car. I don't get nights or weekends off much. I can't wait though, especially since it's been one long hold-up after another with this. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 Nothing special to report as an update, just a few findings from a lot of research, my new form of procrastination from doing my real job. All of the liquid air intercooler cores used on Subarus that i have found (except 1, still looking into it) are two short in that the charge air is only traveling through the core for 6 or 8 inches tops. The fact that this does not reduce charge air temp enough is not new information, but the same mistake is repeated on NASIOC again and again. People fall in love with the STi TMIC design, and mirror it for a AWIC. It's alright but really not worth the extra investment and complexity. What Subarus need is a different design to allow that longer flow so the charge air can actually cool down. Separately, with some of you guys running 700+ cfm turbos, the core I bought has too small of a front flow area. So I ordered a much bigger one, with more flow area than a perrin or avo fmic. If it doesn't fit, I'll get a slightly smaller one. It'll be a really tight fit either way. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 The #1 reason an OEM uses an AWIC is for size constraints. Because you can use a AWIC of half the size of comparable AAIC. The Subaru ones aren't undersized, they're engineered. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 You do realize that the longer the air travels through the IC, for the same size passage, the worse the pressure drop is, right? So a 6 inch passage with 1 inch channels is MUCH better for efficiency than a 30 inch passage w/ 1 inch channels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Do you have plots of flow rate, pressure drop, and efficiency for the cores you're working with? It's my understanding that you get diminishing returns with longer passages as well. The heat dissipation is a function of the difference between the charge and the core... So at the 'front' of the core, where the charge air is hotter, the core can suck heat out effectively. At the 'back' of the core, where the charge has already cooled down somewhat, the core is less effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 One thing I'm realizing is that some of you have very different intercooler goals than I do. If liquid air isn't for you for one of the many previously stated reasons, enough said. Do you have plots of flow rate, pressure drop, and efficiency for the cores you're working with? The two intercoolers I purchased both come with very little information. They're pretty minimalistic (inexpensive). I've found that the data they do come with is pretty arbitrary, and I'm not spending $1200 on a core to which someone can attach good data. The simple calculations I can do are plenty. Calculating flow capacity is pretty easy if you don't mind a margin of error. Efficiency, on the other hand, is not something that is attached to a specific intercooler. Everything affects it. Heat exchanger size, pump flow, air flow (placement vs car design), heat soak, driving type (around town, track, etc.) all influence the system's efficiency. As for pressure drop, it will either be very little or very very little. I'm not putting a huge fmic-sized core over the transmission if that's what you're thinking. So pretty much everything has been covered either in this thread or in an older one on NASIOC. The only next step is to test an operation one, and I just wanted to check in and say I'm still going to do that, just not nearly as soon as I would like. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfdrumr Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 get it done!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I literally work 90 hours per week, time is not my friend. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTGT Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 90 hours holy shit. doing what kind of business? after reading this thread i am very interested once my car is not a dd. right now i need a tmic that allows me to use pre 08 wrx turbos. i praise u for trying this out tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradlgt21 Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I have done much research on water to air intercoolers since my last car Grand Prix GTP has only the choice of a water intercooler. What it boils down to is for drag racing Water to Air is the best bet. You can throw ice in a tank and run the intercooler at really low temps. But after the car has heated up that water just gets warm and doesn't do as much to help. It is better then no intercooler at all thats why the GTP had it afterkmarket but the second people started putting Turbo's in them it went air to air. Air to air is good for when your driving around. the water loses it's effectiveness once that stuff starts getting hot. Plus it's 10 times more of a PITA to control. You got pumps, resevoirs, spilling, weight, it's just whole lot of pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 90 hours holy shit. doing what kind of business? after reading this thread i am very interested once my car is not a dd. right now i need a tmic that allows me to use pre 08 wrx turbos. i praise u for trying this out tho. Professional services consulting mostly. If I'm not always busy I go nuts. This car project keeps me sane. I love messing with stuff and learning about it. I want to make it my business one day. My fiancee wishes this forum or nasioc didn't exist. Don't worry about the sti style turbo compressor outlet. It's actually easier to fit than the VF40/VF52 compressor housing. Without people willing to try new things out, we would have no mods. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjk77 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 lol get it done! let me know if you need if you want to kick back one of these days. stuff has been busy for me too but should clear up by june. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 lol get it done! let me know if you need if you want to kick back one of these days. stuff has been busy for me too but should clear up by june. Will do, thanks bro. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 Doesn't really change anything, but just wanted to share what STEALTH-WRX over on NASIOC recently replied about his 500+ whp AWIC project, which he ran for a long time. He said it worked really well (which is a lot coming from him), and that it's definitely the best thing for drag racing (of course). He didn't like it for much else though, reasons below: He said it sucked on a street car for 2 reasons: When his system got hot it stayed hot. He believes that an AAIC is a much better choice for driving when always above 50mph, because that is when cars with regular FMICs are most efficient. This logic makes sense. My conclusion is that his heat exchanger wasn't up to the task of cooling all that hot air. I still believe this is the one major factor upon which my prototype will either succeed or fail miserably. It is yet to be seen. I only wish I had more time to give to this now just because so many of you have asked when it will be finished. So 2nd, he also said it was heavy. This is a drawback for sure, but he personally didn't mind. The net added weight of mine is yet to be determined. That will be the last thing I find out. Every manufacturer I've talked to is eager to get an order. I guess they generally aren't doing so well with this economy either. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 FML I just spent the whole night reading about intercoolers, and realized I ordered the wrong end tank configuration. If the air inlet and outlet tanks are horizontal or vertical mirror opposites, then there's a nice low pressure area on the side of the core opposite the side of the end tank inlets. If the end tanks are diagonally mirrored, then the flow is much more even, especially at low flow (90% of the time). There are credible sources to verify this, but it's also just plain common sense. Sadly, most intercoolers aren't made this way. Some are for the WRX, but not for the LGT. The Perrin core is not so good this way, but AVO took measures to disperse the flow more evenly across the bar layers (though not a complete fix). Also, has anyone here looked up the effect of a 90* pipe bend on charge air pressure, let alone 8 or 10 of these bends for an FMIC? It's really interesting to convert the total of each of those bends to an equivalent length of straight pipe. The number might surprise you... I've further verified that an AWIC just can't beat an FMIC on the track. However, for a daily driver or drag setup, there is still a possibility. All track guys are at least set. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I don't know about air in a silicone pipe, but water in a copper pipe... 90 degree elbow has the equivalent length of about 8 feet of straight pipe My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 I don't know about air in a silicone pipe, but water in a copper pipe... 90 degree elbow has the equivalent length of about 8 feet of straight pipe Yes. And for a 3" diameter intercooler pipe: A larger radius 90* bend is roughly equivalent to 5 feet of straight pipe. A more standard 90* bend, like the one we require many of for our FMICs, are equivalent to roughly 15 feet of straight pipe. Therefore measuring only the length of pipe for an FMIC is really quite trivial on our cars. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Equivalent in backpressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 Equivalent in backpressure? Pressure drop. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 How much pressure drop does 5 feet of straight 3" pipe have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 0.05 psi ish My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 really depends on the air speed, can be a good deal more with greater flow, and varies significantly because of that variable. There are many online pressure drop calculators so anyone can find out their exact pressure drop through their piping. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 The Intercooler core is so much more restrictive than the combined sum of the total piping that it is negligible My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 The Intercooler core is so much more restrictive than the combined sum of the total piping that it is negligible For an FMIC? Not necessarily. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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