ClimberDHexMods Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 After searching NASIOC and LegacyGT, all I found on Air Water Liquid Intercooler Systems could be summed up in one thread: HERE I looked at many different options, and found a few great possibilities for the LGT and STi. The benefits to the water-cooled intercooler cores mostly far outweigh the air-cooled cores that are used almost exclusively on Subarus. They offer TMIC spool with big FMIC cooling. They use a front-mount "heat exchanger" radiator to release the heat. I'm very serious about putting together a kit for our cars, but since it's winter I will be taking my time with it. Let me know if you are interested in a bolt-on system that drops your intercooler air temperature near ambient with minimal lag. There are a few images on NASIOC, but almost no one is doing them, which is unfortunate for us. The reasonable: http://www.xoticmotorsports.com/projects/2/Andy_Mark_car%20046.jpg And the much more extreme: http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13507&stc=1&d=1064455980 -ClimberD [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTkansan Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Hot. I have been wondering why this hasnt been done for our cars. I can help with any fluid simulation and the like needed to maximize this. Let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Why are we doing this? Moving the heat through TWO mediums is not nearly as efficient as moving it through ONE. Get water injection for the TMIC and be happy Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTkansan Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Haha of course its not as efficient. The point is to use the liquid as the primary heat transfer medium. That way you can have a lower pressure drop in the important flow loop (that of the air entering the engine itself). The extra energy lost through increased pumping (driving the liquid pump) will be offset by the lower charge temperature and higher pressure of the intake air. Considering the temperatures we are talking about, a simple fluid such as water could be used without any worry about dealing with a two phase flow. The power required to pump a single phase fluid is negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 You still have to get the heat out of the liquid. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 You still have to get the heat out of the liquid. That's why you install a front mount radiator with it. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTkansan Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Think about it this way. The heat transfer rate from air to liquid is MUCH better than air to air. So you can have a lower pressure drop in the engine intake air. Thus more power. You then use the extra power to pump the liquid around to transfer it to the radiator area air. The loss of efficiency is overshadowed by the increased effectiveness of the important heat transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 You have to convert the heat from the intake to the water and then from the water to the air. There is a reason that air to water is only used when it is the only option. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonLGT Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Someone has been running an air to water in Tampa for a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I want no intercooler at all. Just a pre-turbo fogger and some serious water/meth injection after. WOOOWOOO -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 I want no intercooler at all. Just a pre-turbo fogger and some serious water/meth injection after. WOOOWOOO Build it and they will come. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urfsin Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 The new ZR-1 Vette uses an air to water intercooler. If sorry ass GM can make it work, so can we. Slide It Sideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vet Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJMC Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 :butt: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 You have to convert the heat from the intake to the water and then from the water to the air. There is a reason that air to water is only used when it is the only option. I will build it, and I will get faster spool than a fmic, and a colder charge than a tmic, for a competitive price. Considering how ridiculously long fmic piping needs to be for our cars, I consider this the better option for many applications. But since it's 25F out, I'm going to take my time. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Have fun Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 The new ZR-1 Vette uses an air to water intercooler. If sorry ass GM can make it work, so can we. <--- The Bugatti Veyron uses an Air to Water Intercooler too! Drag cars use them, but with an ice reservoir addition. The STi in the above picture has an ice reservoir, though it's not practical for daily drivers. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 How are you going to measure the cooling ability and backpressure? It would be nice to come up with a way to measure that isn't too hard to move from car to car, so you could measure the stock setup (as a baseline) and an aftermarket TMIC, and an aftermarket FMIC. I've been pondering the idea of removing the TGVs and using the TGV position sensor inputs to monitor stuff. Haven't tried it yet, but I think it would provide a pair of easily monitored 0-5v inputs. I was thinking of using it to ease the transition to blow-through MAF (measure both, figure out the relationship, use it to create MAF scaling for the blow-through sensor) but there might be temp and pressure sensors that would work too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giveup Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to address heat soak in a daily driver situation? A water to air cooler has even worse heat soak issues in the day to day drive then a air to air unit. They simply cannot exchange fast enough sitting in traffic/day to day use. Once you get moving sure... but the top mount is fine once you start moving also... and it will cool down a hell of a lot faster than a soaked water system. It would be interesting to see if you could get it to work. All in all as rao mentioned... water to air is only used when a good air to air setup can not be made to work due to space/piping. Or it is left to drag only apps as you mentioned because they can ice down between runs. One of the 1st problems the old Sycloon/Typhoon guys had to overcome was the water to air intercooler. Must went front mount... some upgraded the system with better pumps and an ice tank... then went frount mount. The ZR1 uses it due to space/blower. There are only sooo many things you can stack on top of one another. The Veyron uses it because it will run out of gas long before the car gets heat soaked. All in all good luck. Make it work and I'm sure you'll make some good cash. If it can stand up to day to day life in a FL summer stuck in traffic I'll be the 1st to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I will build it, and I will get faster spool than a fmic, and a colder charge than a tmic, for a competitive price. Considering how ridiculously long fmic piping needs to be for our cars, I consider this the better option for many applications. But since it's 25F out, I'm going to take my time. What do you estimate the increase in spool to be, between a TMIC and FMIC. (This is a trick question, as I have had both on the same turbo, and already know the answer) Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Just swap in a Spec B turbo and then you will have no lag regardless of the intercooler! Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to address heat soak in a daily driver situation? A water to air cooler has even worse heat soak issues in the day to day drive then a air to air unit. They simply cannot exchange fast enough sitting in traffic/day to day use. Once you get moving sure... but the top mount is fine once you start moving also... and it will cool down a hell of a lot faster than a soaked water system. It may be a real challenge to beat heat soak. I was already thinking it would ship with an insulated bottom. My turbo/DP doesn't have a heat shield at the moment, and the heat soak is ridiculous. At the end, only testing will tell if it can dissipate heat at the worthwhile efficiency of >90%. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimberDHexMods Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 This is some great stuff to chew on. I hope to place a starting parts order in mid January. It will be research and other work until then. [CENTER][B][I] Front Limited Slip Racing Differentials for the 5EAT now available for $1895 shipped, please inquire for details! [/I][/B][/CENTER] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnAWD Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I could see a liquid to air setup for a drag car, but not for my daily driver. Good luck with the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTkansan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I love to see how people with no engineering background like to make these statements about what is feasible. Its amazing how wrong they can be. I think we should just make this crazy by showing them just how good it can be. How bout we switch over to an ammonia two phase system (similar to an industrial air conditioner) and drop the intake temperature to 35 F with minimal pressure drop, just to show them what can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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