2009 Legacy to feature CVT transmission

[Impulse]

^ +1, MT is still much simpler and much cheaper to fix/manufacture. i think as long as engines are designed to transmit power to a flywheel, we'll always have MTs because of the simplicity and well understood design. i wonder what DSG repairs will cost in ~5 years when the early ones start to fail due to age/wear?

[ilh]

Those F1 drivers are such wimps.

[SBT]

Those F1 drivers are such wimps.

 

Yeah - and at those speeds too...

[Paisan]

I dunno - there's still that visceral disconnect when the left foot pumps, the right foot lifts momentarily as the revs drop and then "blips" (because "I"m" doing it and not a program), you "feel" the drivetrain disengage, literally from the engine, while you snik, snik through the shifter gates, the left foot snaps back out, precisely as the right foot drops and you're off in another gear (up or down). Hydaulic or not, it's still mechanical, and I'm still controlling it. You're definitely NOT going to get that with a CVT. Like I mentioned - "old skool".

 

Completely agree, hence my 05 LGT Wagon 5MT

 

-mike

[Paisan]

Auto wimps (slushbox or DSG, doesn't matter) will come up with any ridiculous excuse to justify their choice.

 

MT won't go away, unless we all drive electric cars....

 

Gotta disagree. Can you name more than 20 +/- a few that come in mt?

 

BMW (All)

Vette

Solstice/Sky

Stang

Subaru (some)

 

There are more but not a whole lot.

 

It may also become an expensive option down the road for folks buying high end cars as the economies of scale for MTs dwindles.

 

-mike

[Jerboa113]

mazdaspeed6/3

 

mazda5 minivan

 

most every pickup.

 

bargain basement cars like the civic crolla etc. may still come with an mt option, dunno.

 

the is250 used to have an mt option, the 350 and is-f do not tho:confused: more power=at? yo no comprende.

 

you're right in your point however that MTs pretty much only still exist for the elite sporty, and the bargain basement cheap. (and the mazda5 minivan)

[Paisan]

I didn't know you could get MTs in any but the base-model pickups.

 

Pretty cool on the Mini-van!

 

As I've said, I'm an MT fan but really they are disappearing at an alarming rate

 

-mike

[SBT]

I didn't know you could get MTs in any but the base-model pickups.

 

Pretty cool on the Mini-van!

 

As I've said, I'm an MT fan but really they are disappearing at an alarming rate

 

-mike

 

Like the Ozone Layer over the South Pole... oh noes.

[1984trx200]

Can we close this thread?

 

The 09 Legacys are out now...and they DO NOT offer a CVT.

[Guest]

Gotta disagree. Can you name more than 20 +/- a few that come in mt?

 

BMW (All)

Vette

Solstice/Sky

Stang

Subaru (some)

 

There are more but not a whole lot.

 

It may also become an expensive option down the road for folks buying high end cars as the economies of scale for MTs dwindles.

 

-mike

 

Geeez. The world does not end in the U.S. 90% of cars sold in Europe (and everywhere else, except maybe Canada and Japan) are manual.

[IwannaSportSedan]

But, as we repeatedly see... US customers are not offered things from the rest of the world. This is mostly a US-centric board, although we very thankfully have input from people around the world.

 

But a US customer who wants a manual, i.e. ME, is seeing the options shrink, with no recourse. I can't import a car directly from Europe, and have them be legal. I thought having to bring one home from VT was a bit of a trip.

 

Hell, US Companies, like Ford and GM offer better products in Europe than they do in the US, and continue to take losses in the US market, where they can't seem to work well in the changing US market.

 

It all comes down to decision making, and whether the company exists to make cars for money, or making money by selling cars. (it goes to priority.)

[Jon in CT]

But, as we repeatedly see... US customers are not offered things from the rest of the world.

No, we usually get better stuff. No turbo Legacy model has been offered for sale in Europe for years. The 2.5L STI arrived here two years before anywhere else in the world.

[IwannaSportSedan]

unless you contrast that with the Blitzen, WR Limited, Tuned by STI, or S402... which the rest of the world get, or can grey-market, and we don't. That is just the Legacy, and just the trim lines, not even the specific features that they get that we don't on our Legacys. There is also things like the STI Spec C, and others. In the past, the GC8 coupe with a turbocharger... etc. But that is just a response to your point.

 

BTW, it isn't as if the ROW hasn't had the STI in 2.0 twin-scroll form LONGER than the US has had the STI at all. You make it sound like they have been doing without. It was just a drivetrain change. Europe got the 3.0 powered legacy before we did, didn't they?

 

For My point, I was speaking to a lot of other companies or even the general industry as a whole, somewhat GM, and especially FORD, that offer far better products overseas than in the US market, especially when considering smaller trucks, like the Thai build ROW Ranger, and modest-size cars like the Euro mondeo, S-max, and Focus. While Ford won't put a manual transmission in a premium trim car in the US, aside from the live-axle mustang. Focus, Fusion, Milan, others... if you get more options and better engines, the manual becomes unavailable, and is treated as an economy option, not a performance option.

 

In some ways we get better with one hand, and worse with the other.

 

But the main point is that US offerings of manual transmissions are declining, including the Turbo Forester, and importing cars from other countrys (grey market) is not NEARLY as possible in the US as it is in some other markets. So the alternatives to bad decisions, like eliminating optional manual transmissions, are usually without recourse for the customer.

 

Even the asian imports, or even their stateside built models have fewer and fewer manual transmission options. About the only real stand-by models are european imports, where their home markets still ensure manual transmission availability. Economies of scale, as Paisan would point out. But BMW continues not to import as many MT or wagon options, perhaps Audi following suit? They still offer more than most other companies, and more option configurability, as well. But if they choose to start pulling options, we can't just grey-market the euro-spec cars, to bypass that decision.

 

If Ford or GM, or Chrysler (does Chrysler offer a single MT in a non-econobox or wrangler in their whole line anymore?) if they choose to ditch the few remaining manual trans options they have, what are customers supposed to do about that?

[Ruperts Trooper]

Manufacturers will make what sells, by and large.

 

Manual transmissions still dominate European cars sales, not because they're better (or worse) than automatics but because more customers want them.

 

I'm not sure that North America gets "better" Legacy/Outback models than Europe - it's true we don't get turbo models, but European customers who major on performance buy Imprezas, not Legacy/Outbacks. Performance isn't just about power, it's also about lightweight agility.

 

For my next Subaru, I want a Legacy estate or Outback with the new turbo-diesel matched with a reliable torque converter-type automatic - but it's not going to happen.

[Jon in CT]

For my next Subaru, I want a Legacy estate or Outback with the new turbo-diesel matched with a reliable torque converter-type automatic - but it's not going to happen.

What do you mean it's not going to happen? You can buy one of those today in England.

[Ruperts Trooper]

;1965801']What do you mean it's not going to happen? You can buy one of those today in England.

Oh no we can't, not even in the UK.

 

We can buy a manual diesel or an automatic petrol - but NOT an automatic diesel.

 

When we do get automatic diesel in 2010 model year, it'll be a CVT not torque converter plus planetary gear.

 

CVTs have bad history in Europe - they were introduced by DAF from the Netherlands using two fibre belts, which were prone to breaking, so no-one bought the cars. Volvo took DAF over, re-badged the car Volvo 66 and re-engineered it with a conventional manual transmission - this became the Volvo 340/360.

 

Ask any car driver in Europe about CVTs and they'll say "used to be made 50 years ago, the rubber bands kept breaking".

 

Now I know that modern CVTs are very different but they won't sell in Europe in significant numbers until they're demonstrably longer-lived than a conventional manual gearbox.

[Jerboa113]

from the pictures the belt looks more like a chain. There have been considerable improvements in pretty much all technology in the last 50 years, even in tires. I imagine comparing the old CVT to newer models would be like comparing bias ply to steel belted radials. That being said, I'm still not holding CVT out as a change for the better. I suppose its more efficient and all, which helps in the current times with gas prices what they are, but I'm just not convinced.

 

Hey, you have a castle in your hometown! that's cool! right off of market street? I was nosing around on maps.live.com the other night and got the idea in my head of visiting Europe one of these days. We cant even keep the original steak n shake standing over here and yet you have castles of old right off the road.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Hey, you have a castle in your hometown! that's cool! right off of market street? I was nosing around on maps.live.com the other night and got the idea in my head of visiting Europe one of these days. We cant even keep the original steak n shake standing over here and yet you have castles of old right off the road.

Our history goes back a long way! Tamworth was the capital of the Kingdom of Mercia, before England was unified under Athelstan in 924 AD.

[Jerboa113]

if I come visit can I stay with you and drive your outback? It'll make me fee more at home.

[Ruperts Trooper]

if I come visit can I stay with you and drive your outback? It'll make me fee more at home.

You wouldn't feel at home in my Outback - the steering wheel is on the passenger side, as far as you're concerned.

 

You'll need a mortgage before you come here, you do realise that fuel is very expensive here - around £1.20 per litre, that's about $8.50 per US gallon.

[fishbone]

I am of the camp that is skeptical and does not want CVT in a supposebly performance sedan. I would rather have a geared tranny.

I am on some Nissan boards and a couple of people slammed me for not believing into the performance potential of the CVT. I've argued that as things stand right now, I don't see a single CVT on a car with over 300lb-ft at the crank. One exception is a Lexus hybrid with around 400lb-ft and to be honest I am not entirely sure what goes on there. The fact is, I am anxiously awaiting some Nissan guys to turbo their CVT Altimas and see what comes of it. I have heard of at least one turbo Murano that has gone in the shop 3 times to have the CVT belt replaced. It snapped due to the insane amount of torque.

 

I do not pretend to be an expert at acceleration laws, but I was always under the impression that the power band of any car or engine is just that. A power band, not a power point. CVT Altimas fall flat on their faces at certain high speeds and/or revs. I know because I ran a couple

[Paisan]

Well you have a power band in engines, regardless of what it's driving (CVT, AT, MT, PTO, etc), this is why for instance a big block V8 is used in high performance boat applications, because it's power BAND is very wide, providing maximum torque and hp from 1500rpms up to 6000rpms. Like the 502s in my Baja that have a peak of 415hp, but that peak is over a wide rpm band.

 

Take Hondahs or some turbo applications for instance, they are very peaky in their HP/Torque, where they achieve a high HP/Torque, but it's over a relatively small rpm range. When operating outside those ranges, the HP/Torque is significantly lower than the peak.

 

So the advantage of a CVT is that it runs the engine at a very small rpm range, let's say 3000-4000rpms no matter what speed the vehicle is moving at. This allows the manufacturer or tuner to tune the car to be attain it's peak HP/Torque in that small 1000 rpm range. It's much easier and fuel efficient to get that peak HP/Torque in a small range rather than over a broad range.

 

I still don't see CVTs taking over the performance market, moreover they will replace your ATs and the DSG styles will replace your MTs in "performance" applications.

 

-mike

[SLegacy99]

I am on some Nissan boards and a couple of people slammed me for not believing into the performance potential of the CVT. I've argued that as things stand right now, I don't see a single CVT on a car with over 300lb-ft at the crank. One exception is a Lexus hybrid with around 400lb-ft and to be honest I am not entirely sure what goes on there. The

 

I just know that there haven't been any CVT failures yet with Lexus hybrids. Seems to me like you would do alot of research before connecting a 350 trq. 5.0L to a CVT.

 

The long wheelbase LS 600h L is equipped with Lexus Hybrid Drive, featuring a 5.0 L 2UR-FSXE V8 engine mated to a high-output electric motor with nickel-metal hydride battery packs. This system generates an output of 438 hp (327 kW), comparable to V12 sedans such as the BMW 760Li (which also produces 438 hp), but the systems total potential power output is 610hp. The LS hybrid features all-wheel drive with a Torsen limited-slip differential, is equipped with a two-stage continuously variable transmission (CVT)

 

Two stage?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Like the 502s in my Baja that have a peak of 415hp, but that peak is over a wide rpm band.

 

You have a 502 ci V8 in a Subaru Baja? :lol:

 

I can't tell if you've either done a WHOLE LOT of work to a Subaru, or if you are talking about something else entirely...

[fishbone]

I just know that there haven't been any CVT failures yet with Lexus hybrids. Seems to me like you would do alot of research before connecting a 350 trq. 5.0L to a CVT.

 

 

 

Two stage?

See, I knew there had to be something more to that. I was figuring either an electronically limited torque as to not snap the belt off the line, or maybe it's just that Toyota figured out a CVT to handle all that power.