DBA 4000 Rotors and Hawk HPS Pads

[KNS Brakes]

Im an Oracle DBA can I get a few words in here?

 

that is quality humor sir

[PLTek]

well,

 

i dont mean to start a fight, just want to have a discussion so that people can get some good information to make decisions. When someone makes a statement or accusation, its only natural that it should be backed up. I am sorry but i will not search other forums or internet to support your statement or discredit it, thats up to you.

 

i dont doubt that there may have been issues with racing brake rotors, perhaps that specific design, even if so, from your statement, its seems to have been corrected. Mitsubishi just came out with the new Evo X and i can provide you with laundry list of issues that have been uncovered, does that mean that mitsubishi sucks, no it doesnt; i can give countless examples of issues with products from pencils to space shuttle.

 

All i ask is that you are careful when making such generalized statements or at least provide ample proof to back this up.

 

As a side note, i never recommend drilled or x-drilled rotors to my customers, not even 2-piece so 1-piece slotted rotors are as safe as you can get.

 

well, thank you for listening

 

PS

I aint no Mr. DBA.

 

You can do the searching on NASIOC. There was also a thread on the BMW forums as well. Both were from GrandAm teams. There was another from somone using the rotors for OneLap of America. I used to have the pictures on my old laptop but it crashed. I think they stopped marketing their cross drilled to racers now (finally). This was back from 2006 with spotty occurances from there. The original failures were from their cross drilled holes within slots. That was creating a second stress point within a first.

 

Then again, most LGT members do not track their cars, so it could be a non-issue. But if you do intend to track the car, I never recommend x-drilled. Not even the ones we sell are marketed as such. In fact, we market them purely as BLING. Other companies will try to put a spin on them telling you they perform better, are lighter, patented, etc etc...

[PLTek]

wow sounds like a personal issue here.

 

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c299/brakeguru/Broken%20Rotors/brokenRBrotor.jpg

 

 

 

 

Just the facts:

 

This is an STi - not an LGT.

 

This car spun off track - the hat completely sheared from the ring. It has occurred more than once.

 

I am a degreed mechanical engineer - and a brakes DISTRIBUTOR - and I KNOW MORE ABOUT brakes then you. Plus I worked for those shitbags till 2005 - and after repeated failures due to what I consider complete lack of regard for public safety or even due diligence in regards to testing or validating a completely new design for rotor/hat attachment - I quit.

 

Buy it and extol it's virtues if you like - I do not care.

 

The 2 piece design was created by Ryan Amend - who was given zero credit to my knowledge.

 

The 2 piece design was created to SAVE money - not make better brakes. 1 tool versus 2 tools - and tools are expensive. I'm a tool too.

 

Lightweight rotors do not make better rotors. If you want to see what makes better brakes - you look at the worst case scenario - and that is NASCAR. They are the heaviest cars w/ tremendous power and terrible cooling to the brakes due to wheel restrictions.

 

NASCAR rotors for short tracks/road courses are HUGE - with thicker cheeks and many vanes as well as forced air cooling. To dissipate heat - you add mass/surface area and airflow.

 

And yes - DBA rear 4000 series rotors are back ordered for at least a few weeks.

 

As a WD for DBA - I have had exactly one unexpected failure on track - and it was not catastrophic - just premature. Pretty good imo.

 

I would challenge ANYONE to show me one valid test from 'the other guys' aside from the absolute CRAP on their website that says stupid shit like..."used by champions" and "best ever" and yada yada FAIL.

 

This is one way you test a rotor. You thermo-couple it and do it right.

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/24hr_pro6a-1.jpg

 

or you put in on a dyno.

 

Have a nice day

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/httpdocs/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/24hr_pro6a-1.jpg

[KNS Brakes]

678910

[whobaru]

"WTF happened to my thread? Where are my kudos?"

 

-HTownLegacy

[KNS Brakes]

12344556

[KNS Brakes]

234523452345

[HTownLegacy]

"WTF happened to my thread? Where are my kudos?"

 

-HTownLegacy

 

^^

 

 

I appreciate Brakeguru's post. The "others" seemed to just want to argue like women.

 

Now that I have had a few days to use the pads and rotors, I am extremely happy that I went with the combination that I did. I did a good amount of research before I purchased, and found that I thought this was the best combo for my DD. And if the wife screams every time I slam the brakes, they must be doing something right.

 

I have had experience with other cars that have had cross-drilled rotors/cross-drilled and slotted rotors, and a solid or slotted only rotor is just the way to go. You won't get noticeable gains from cross drilling. I have seen many many different brands of cross-drilled rotors develop cracks. Some have even lead to failure, like brakes locking.

 

For safety and confidence, go with OEM rotors with performance pads or slotted rotors with performance pads. You won't regret it.

[korpsepatrol]

does that include me? cause i love arguing like a woman.

 

btw does the playstation controller hook up to your stainless steel brake lines without problems?

[HTownLegacy]

does that include me? cause i love arguing like a woman.

 

btw does the playstation controller hook up to your stainless steel brake lines without problems?

 

Other than me being an ass and cross threading it, absolutely. It does an awesome job!!

[PLTek]

well, i did not mean to hijack the thread but was asked by a member to chime in here seeing that there was mis information about RB being spread here. I will ignore the "argue like women" comment.

 

Speaking of Brakeguru's posts in this threads, i am sorry, but i am not sure whats to appreciate there. Whatever happened b/w him and RB, its definitely not cool to drag things into a public forum, and trash your ex-employer and their products, its immature and unprefessional any way you look at it.

 

Yes, i am a RB dealer, and would be the first one to drop them if i had ever so much as gotten a hint that they are not doing right by customer in any respect. (product quality, service, making faulty claims)

 

Anyhow, my point all along was that if you make a claim, back it up with facts.

 

Until then, happy breaking, let us know if we can help you with your braking needs.

 

 

 

^^

 

 

I appreciate Brakeguru's post. The "others" seemed to just want to argue like women.

 

Now that I have had a few days to use the pads and rotors, I am extremely happy that I went with the combination that I did. I did a good amount of research before I purchased, and found that I thought this was the best combo for my DD. And if the wife screams every time I slam the brakes, they must be doing something right.

 

I have had experience with other cars that have had cross-drilled rotors/cross-drilled and slotted rotors, and a solid or slotted only rotor is just the way to go. You won't get noticeable gains from cross drilling. I have seen many many different brands of cross-drilled rotors develop cracks. Some have even lead to failure, like brakes locking.

 

For safety and confidence, go with OEM rotors with performance pads or slotted rotors with performance pads. You won't regret it.

[magnetic1]

 

Yes, i am a RB dealer, and would be the first one to drop them if i had ever so much as gotten a hint that they are not doing right by customer in any respect. (product quality, service, making faulty claims)

 

Anyhow, my point all along was that if you make a claim, back it up with facts.

.

 

Ignoring women comments as well

 

Sorry if I didnt make it more clear in my reply to you. I didnt post links because as I said, I lost them. But they are definitely out there. I just dont have the time to go searching for them.

 

As far as facts are concerned, basic physics can be used as facts. The whole point of a rotor is MASS. When you start making the rotor thinner or create multiple stress points, you start having issues. While this may be fine for the street, making claims that these are stronger than others and have seen race duty, etc etc create a situation where implication is made that they are raceworthy when they are not. This WAS past practice though. Like I also said, they dont market some of those designs anymore for racers, which IMO is a step in the right direction.

[PLTek]

right, right

 

again, the only issue i had was with your blanket statement about catastrophic failures of racing brake rotors,

 

i still have not seen one shred of evidence.

 

anyhow, back on topice

 

DBA rotors,...

Ignoring women comments as well

 

Sorry if I didnt make it more clear in my reply to you. I didnt post links because as I said, I lost them. But they are definitely out there. I just dont have the time to go searching for them.

 

As far as facts are concerned, basic physics can be used as facts. The whole point of a rotor is MASS. When you start making the rotor thinner or create multiple stress points, you start having issues. While this may be fine for the street, making claims that these are stronger than others and have seen race duty, etc etc create a situation where implication is made that they are raceworthy when they are not. This WAS past practice though. Like I also said, they dont market some of those designs anymore for racers, which IMO is a step in the right direction.

[HTownLegacy]

...are awesome when used with SS Lines and Playstation Controllers! Just be careful not to cross thread.

[PGT]

 

Speaking of Brakeguru's posts in this threads, i am sorry, but i am not sure whats to appreciate there. Whatever happened b/w him and RB, its definitely not cool to drag things into a public forum, and trash your ex-employer and their products, its immature and unprefessional any way you look at it.

 

 

speaking of, he's a stand-up guy and only posted here because you asked him to. if you don't like what he has to say, so be it. Don't ask, don't tell next time please.

 

I've known brakeguru since meeting him at a Subaru Motorsports day some two years ago. He's always: 1. given honest advice even when it means no profit for him 2. taken care of every customer every time that I've see 3. been willing to walk away on principle.

 

his comments may not be helpful to your or RB's sales pitch but that doesn't make it less valid nor true.

 

PGT out.

[rc0032]

+1000 on PGTs #2

 

 

<shameless plug> and I still over Oracle DBA advice

[bosco]

[KNS Brakes]

245234234234234234

[AKLGT]

wow. Thanks for the info! I've always been told by my local racing gurus to steer clear of any drilled or drilled and slotted rotors. Really glad i went with the Brembo slotted BBK set up on the LGT because I really beat the piss out of the poor car during track season last year. Now that I'm back to OEM brake in the LGT, it's a big difference. I have to remember I can't stop as quickly as I did.

 

I think the OEM Brembos will suffice on the new car for now.

[PLTek]

well this is really getting out of hand, i have been dragged into a personal feud and i don't want any part of it.

 

all i can state is facts as i experienced them, and these are very plain and simple: I resell racing brake product and have not had one single complaint about their product, and if i did, i would do everything to make things right for customer, either myself or by working with racing brake or any other vendor. in fact, a hint of foul play on part of any vendors in form of misrepresenting products, leading to safety or performace issues, would cause me to immediately sever relathionship with that vendor, and i did that with few: enough said by me.

 

one other thing, just my observation, most people here use aftermarket rotors as alternative to stock, with spirited driving and perhaps a few auto-x events a year, with occasional hardcore auto-x or track nut. i always recommend 1 piece, slotted rotors to customers as the safest bet to address most needs. now if you are talking about professional car racing with hours of racing, tens or hundreds of laps, speeds in excess of 150-160mph, where rotors heat up like on one of your pictures several times on each lamp, thats a different league all together. i am not sure if i have rotors for that particular need in my offer.

 

anywho, interesting discussion, nonetheless

 

It would appear that I am being asked to reply.

 

The name RacingBrake implies suitability for racing. That is MY ISSUE.

The previous post I made would indicate that in at least that particular case that is completely untrue. Under racing conditions the rotors failed in such a manner that safety was not preserved.

That's just WRONG - and responsibility needs to be taken - and if I am called out as a whistle blower or loser or no good guy - well so be it. That will never bother me. I can close tomorrow knowing I did my best.

 

We can all read this web page

http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/two_piece_rotor_upgrade.asp?display=back

 

So ....having been there.

 

Advantages:

• Lighter rotor (12-16% weight reduction varied with the size and design) than original one-piece rotor – meaning lower spinning weight.
  
• Cooler disc - due to higher heat dissipation rate of aluminum hat than cast iron

Lower weight is always coveted - but not at the expense of brakes. They are often where races are won or lost.

• Solid disc (non ventilated)– Mainly for light duty such as rear rotor or drag race.
  
• Straight vane (non directional) – For medium service duty (usually up to 12”).
  
• Curved vane (directional) – For heavy service duty (from about 12” up to 15”).
  
• Convergent vane (uni-directional)– Our patented design disc is lighter but stronger and more efficient in air circulation than conventional curved vane.

Oh really? Do you have ANY data to back up that claim? That's useless without DATA. Please - show me ONE test that would substantiate that. Even a BAD test. Anything!! besides "Joey said it was good"

 

Surface mount: (Traditional design)

• Air ventilation is not very efficient because it admits air only from one side (inboard).
  
• Stress load is unbalanced as load center is on the outboard friction surface.
  
• Heat load to hat is solely from outboard disc surface and is unbalanced.
  
• Heat transfer is directly from outer disc surface to rotor hat which heats up rotor hat more rapidly.

A decent supposition - I remember writing it. But without DATA - it's nothing more than that.

 

Center Mount: (RacingBrake’s Patented design)

• Convergent vane pumps more air than conventional curved vane.
  
• More efficient air ventilation – Center mount provides air inlets from both inboard and outboard.
  
• Heat load on rotor hat is balanced from both sides of friction surfaces.
  
• Heat transfer from disc surface to rotor hat is greatly reduced due to longer distance to travel.
  
• Stress load is balanced due to the mounting surface is at the disc center.
  
• Disc is uni-directional, hat can mount to disc on either side without having to identify left or right yet its truly directional, avoid mix-up in installation, very innovative and friendly for installation and parts inventory.

Zero data for point 1 - the rest are just regurgitated suppositions. Zero data for point 4.

 

Fail - 1 track day on a race car.

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/crackedrb.jpg

 

Too light - you fail again. You removed several pounds of rotor mass - and it simply could not handle the heat. The sheer arrogance that you have to say that you know more than the engineers at Subaru or GM. Unbelievable. Sorry - I cannot tolerate that. Not EVER Warren.

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/cheek%20thickness.jpg

 

A comparison of what I consider a reasonable alternative to what Subaru intended for STi's. Note the cheek thickness is consistent and the vane density appears to be similar.

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/STicomparo.jpg

 

While we are at it - drilled rotors are NOT GOOD for track use

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/Vette%20OEM%20Front.jpg

 

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/corvette/fail.jpg

 

While sucky - that failure does not lead to complete loss of brakes- it's an 'omg' moment. I've been there.

 

Please note - that is not a DBA rotor - it is the GM OEM one. They should be ashamed also. But they will tell you that it's NOT suitable for racing. And if they don't - they should.

 

I have three Subaru's I test brakes on.

 

Here's my rotors and pads after they gave out.

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/wrxfgailure.jpg

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/wrxbrakes.jpg

 

It is clear that these rotors were way overheated with race pads. The rotor did not fail until substantial mass was removed and continued heat cycling was still applied. If you can't distinguish between these failures - then you should know someone who can.

 

I purchased Brembo's rather quickly after that.

 

Let me be clear. Racing provides stress levels that production brakes struggle to withstand. No rotor is going to solve that problem. None. I abused these for as long as possible - I need to know what is going to happen when it's taken BEYOND the limit. Me - in my house - a 1 person company has done more validation than you. I have 3 Subaru's - thankfully the wagon sold or I'd have 4.

 

Look at the front rotors on my 05 OBXT - pretty much the same car that you all have. Except it has 'wrx sized' front brakes. But oh - that's not exactly correct. I took the rotors off to look. It felt quite heavy right away. (And I have lifted PLENTY of WRX rotors)

 

More vanes and thicker cheeks - hmmm...did Subaru just decide to RE TOOL a rotor that was already in production? I think NOT.

 

http://www.knsbrakes.com/picture_library/posting_pictures/subaru/fail/vane%20shot.jpg

 

 

You can do what ever you want Peter/Warren Lin (owner of RB). For some reason - there are no laws or DOT specifications that I know of that mandate the usefulness of brakes for the intended purpose. You can claim ANYTHING you want on your website.

 

You can cavalierly alter the rotors to suit your purpose - you can ask that I be banned or my posts be edited - and you can even try to sue me (again).

I don't care. If I end up working at McDonalds so be it. It won't be for having not done due diligence.

 

But you cannot change the facts.

 

Your 2 piece rotor design is pretty much un-validated and thus flawed. You have changed things in such a manner that ANY engineer would say "Is that ok? are we SURE? In certain cases your design failed and cars went off track as a result. That's dangerous sir - don't you even care? Any? Yet to my knowledge you continue to market your products in such a way that I simply MUST respond and I am ashamed of the fact that I worked there and actually PROMOTED that stuff.

 

You change the OEM specs without validating the effects of said change. How do you sleep at night?

 

And I cannot change the fact that if asked - I will report what i know. That's my job - and I do it to the best of my ability.

 

I wish someone like me who knew tires would have warned me about the MX's I ran on track.

 

And I wish i wasn't such a dumbass to waste time like this - I could be selling brakes right now. Oh well.

[PGT]

how big a hint do you need Peter??

[aaronlee0821]

that was a good read.

 

oh and nice brake setup, OP. I think i'll go for the DBA/Hawks as well for my car.

[PLTek]

i am sorry, what kind of hint are you referring to?

 

how about this, you buy a set of racing brake rotors from me, provided i can recommend ones based on your need and you buy them (i will give you a great deal, by the way) and they fail while being used in a way you intededed them to use, including any requirements or directions by rb (if they fail) and you can show with reasonable certainty that they failed because of a design flaw or misinformation, and i will do what i said i would in such case. Is that fair?

 

 

how big a hint do you need Peter??

[PGT]

how soon you forget Peter! I tried to buy a set from you but RB undercut your own dealer cost and sold them over the counter for cheaper through a sale they ran on NASIOC. Do you remember that? I sure do and brakeguru sure does. (doesn't sound to me like a manufacturer who's looking out for their vendors)

[PLTek]

oops