Manual or tiptronic?

[BigBad]

reason: my experience... I can tell you that when I went to a free flowing aftermarket CBE the hesitation and bucking syndrome you mention went away completely and crawling in 1st gear in stop and go traffic is a breeze in comparison to when car was stock. This was even before I got an accessport and a tune. Adding the short throw shifter and bushings made it even more a pleasure to drive.

[Guest]

Mat, have you ever actually driven in stop-and-go? Maybe it's just my car, but crawling in 1st is impossible. Or at least looks funny. If you give it just a touch of gas, and then let up to engine brake, it starts bucking. And at least around here, if you let a gap open of more than a length, someone inevitably lurches into it.

 

edit: and if you think I'm abrupt with the throttle, I'm not. With the hypersensitive TBW, I'm smooooooth.

 

Cruel Boston traffic every day here (and I take I-93 inbound every day which sucks). Does it certify me?

 

I can crawl in 1st or 2nd without issues (engine/exhaust 100% stock). Throttle is touchy, but nothing bad. You may ride clutch a tiny bit to alleviate the problem, but usually it's not needed.

 

Honestly, I absolutely have no issues with the MT in traffic, I am not trying to show off how cool I am. Simply it's not an issue. On the contrary I've been stuck in a slushbox rental for the past three weeks and hated driving it with passion (and it had 280hp V6, so it wasn't a slouch). Maybe it's a second nature. I wasn't even 15 when I started driving manual, and never drove a slushbox until like 10 years later. Also never really owned a slushbox for an extended period of time.

[reason22]

No worries unclemat, I know how cool you are. Boston driving definitely qualifies you, I was there (suburbs, Westborough area) in January and endured the traffic for a week. In a rented Grand Prix and a foot of snow!

 

I learned on a dirtbike, then a '78 10-hp (felt like it) Ford/Mazda 1/16th ton (haha) truck, 4MT. '81 Datsun 200SX 5MT, 85 Toyo MR2, '91 Toyo MR2 Turbo 5MT...(couple of Audi's, bleah)... and now my beloved wagon. Only "automatic" I've driven was the Audi A4 with CVT...bored me to tears! Maybe I'm just lazy in stop-and-go. But yeah, I get bored and don't pay as much attention to my driving in an auto. I'll be the first to admit I could use some schooling on quality shifting...need to hit another driving school one of these years.

 

So OP, I stick by my guns. If you are undecided, go AT. Go MT if you feel it in your bones.

[reason22]

Bigbad, interesting. I have the STS and bushing (huge improvement!) haven't touched anything else. Accessport envy is growing, though...

 

And to go completely off-topic for nostalgia's sake (mostly my own) that MR2 Turbo forcibly taught throttle control. If you were anywhere near the limit in a corner, and even thought about letting up on the throttle...BAM...the legendary snap oversteer kicks in. I still loved that car, kick myself for selling it.

[reason22]

I'm not trying to build my post count, haha. But I will amend my previous statement. The MT is not a "pain" in traffic. Just more work than an AT. I.e. you have to use both feet instead of just one. It is perfectly docile. I'm just lazy.

[Rishi]

08 5EAT GT pretty fast shifting. I use the paddles, and find acceleration very smooth. I think its actually faster than manual (I have test driven the manual). It is a considerable improvement over the 07 and I believe older 5EAT. (used to own 07 5EAT b4 loosing it in an accident) and found shifting to be very slow.

[Guest]

08 5EAT GT pretty fast shifting. I use the paddles, and find acceleration very smooth. I think its actually faster than manual (I have test driven the manual). It is a considerable improvement over the 07 and I believe older 5EAT. (used to own 07 5EAT b4 loosing it in an accident) and found shifting to be very slow.

 

In your head

 

Ppl my prefer AT, it's their choice. But with the same power on the crank stock 5EAT is not faster. A built 5EAT some members have is claimed to be fast, I dunno. Stock to stock, no comparison though.

[reason22]

I interpreted Rishi as meaning the speed of the shifts...not the speed of the car. I think the laws of physics pretty much rules out AT's being faster/quicker than MT's...all else the same.

 

I could be mistaken in my interpretation, though.

[AKLGT]

MT pain in stop to go? Seriously - try to improve your driving technique (more engine breaking, crawling in a gear, keep distance from the car in front of you).

 

Besides, I always wonder why is it such a chore to people. There is nothing else to do while stuck in the traffic.

maybe if you are only a commuter. but having to drive from one store to another, to customers houses up on hills, mtns or anywhere between every single day.... ya, it is more than just stop and go. add some snow and ice in there and that makes it oh so much more fun. than have 2 cell phones and customer calls pretty much non-stop every day all day.... occassionally you get a pee break and maybe you can grab some food thru the drive thru. that's why I chose my 5EAT. I love it, no doubt, and now I'll be going back to an MT. Up until the LGT, I've always thought/believed that AT's were for pansies and that all cars should be MT so that I could change gears as God intended: when I want. however, after driving the LGT for 3 yrs now, I will say that I love it and will greatly miss it. I really can't say that about any other AT car I've driven or owned in the past (other than my truck, but that doesn't really count). Do I wish I could get a 6EAT in the STI? Hell yes! In fact, I'll be one of the first in line if/when SOA comes out with that dual clutch tranny (maybe, keeping my fingers crossed). To say that you can't enjoy an AT or that you can't possibly be a driving enthusiast and love an AT is wrong. I do both and I love both.

 

Having said that, I don't know if there would be another AT car that I would enjoy as much in the price range of the LGT. It will be interesting to see how the Mitsu DSG box compares, as I would love to have that dual clutch true manu-matic performance machine. Than I can have my cake and eat it too.

 

and agreed, no way in hell that stock for stock the 5EAT is FASTER than a 5MT. Our TC really limits us. However, if power braking the car to god knows what, you can slam your foot on the gas and go, where as in a MT, you have to be careful so you don't bog your launch. But with a good driver in both vehicles, there is just no way that the stock 5EAT will beat the stock 5MT unless the driver sucks.

[AKLGT]

I interpreted Rishi as meaning the speed of the shifts...not the speed of the car. I think the laws of physics pretty much rules out AT's being faster/quicker than MT's...all else the same.

 

I could be mistaken in my interpretation, though.

still, the shifts are delayed. it's not going to be faster or as fast as shifting an MT. We don't have a DSG box (but damn I wish we did!)

[ShadowImg]

I think people are using the terms 'faster' in reference to shifting for multiple purposes here, and that's causing some confusion.

 

An AT can shift far faster than an MT, there is no question there. However, an AT's response to a driver's input is considerably slower than direct input to an MT.

 

As to the 5EAT in the LGT, I have no idea how fast it actually shifts, but it seems pretty damn fast to me. It's hugely improved over the 4EAT, that's for sure -- and the whole automatic rev matching thing is awfully nice.

[Guest]

AKLGT, we've heard your reasons for AT. I repeat what I said it the past - you can give all excuses you want but I think it's wrong and reckless to drive and talk on the phone - especially "all day long" (regardless of the transmission). If your business requires it you should have chauffeur and handle your business from the back seat.

[reason22]

I think people are using the terms 'faster' in reference to shifting for multiple purposes here, and that's causing some confusion.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

 

And I wet myself a little every time I think about the VW/Audi and Lancer DSG/SST/whatever they want to call it. It's a little embarrassing. If there was a Lancer Evolution wagon option with the DSG, I'd be all over it. Get with the program, Subaru!

[rouar]

No worries unclemat, I know how cool you are. Boston driving definitely qualifies you, I was there (suburbs, Westborough area) in January and endured the traffic for a week. In a rented Grand Prix and a foot of snow!

lol at that ... Westborough traffic (central MA) isn't anything remotely like Boston. You've got to go east of 128 to see the real fun.

 

I curse the manual every time I am stuck in 1mph traffic, or stopped on a hill and the idiot behind me doesn't realize that my car rolls back. Otherwise, it's a dream to drive. If I still lived in Somerville I would definitely be driving 5EAT ... I absolutely hated driving stick when in that area.

[AKLGT]

AKLGT, we've heard your reasons for AT. I repeat what I said it the past - you can give all excuses you want but I think it's wrong and reckless to drive and talk on the phone - especially "all day long" (regardless of the transmission). If your business requires it you should have chauffeur and handle your business from the back seat.

i own my business, so therefore I am the chauffeur. if i could get away with not having everyone call me at the most inopportune times of the day, that would be fantastic. It does not matter whether you like it or not, however the reality is people talk on the phone when they drive... as you said, when you're stuck in traffic, what else do you have to do? At least I can get some work done while I stop and go and then stop and then go and then stop again... there's also this wonderful invention called BLUETOOTH. they make headsets, in car systems like Parrot, etc. I prefer having BOTH of my hands on the wheel while I drive, whether on the road during mundane activities or at the track. One of the very first things going into the new car will be a BLUETOOTH hands free car kit for that very reason.

 

Again, just because people actually LIKE or ENJOY driving an automatic verse a manual for every day driving does not make them lazy nor inadequate of a driver. If we want to drive an automatic for a DD, than so what. It's personal preference.

[Rishi]

Sorry for the vagueness - yes I was referring the the shift speeds in the 08 5EAT being faster (IMHO) than the manual. The car itself is slower - of course, can't beat MT as far as speed. I saw quoted speeds of 0.2 sec shifts in the 08 5EAT in a technical spec. Its getting very close to tiptronic shifting in a CVT which is seemless (can't even detect the gear change).

 

However, for practical (ie non racing purposes), the 08 5EAT does not disappoint. It is still a fast car, without the jerkyness of a MT and has great acceleration. The trade off in pure acceleration time is not a huge sacrifice to my feel. And can still sip your coffee while driving as opposed to gulping between shifts it in an MT....

[tachikaze]

doesn't the MT also have a "slushbox", the center diff?

 

Frankly, I couldn't care less about 0-60 performance on the drag strip.

 

All I care about is real-world performance, like 20-50 on-ramp merging, and especially 40-70 passing "with authority", and ease in getting me up a mountain road in the winter.

 

The advantage with manual in these instances is that the driver can pre-select the gear to be in the higher-rev torque sweet spot before the acceleration, but it seems to me that the 5EAT driver can also do this with the controls. . .

[Rishi]

Yes on the 5EAT, you can select the gear either in the tiptronic mode, or even in the 'auto' mode, a press of the paddle can up or downshift on command. Its an excellent feature for adjusting to incr or decr torque just when you need it. For example, want to pass quickly on the freeway? The rev matching allows you to smoothly downshift with a click of the paddle, pass quickly and will then automatically take over shifting from then on, while in the Auto mode. It will not let you over rev the engine however.

[Guest]

However, for practical (ie non racing purposes), the 08 5EAT does not disappoint. It is still a fast car, without the jerkyness of a inpet MT driver and has great acceleration. The trade off in pure acceleration time is not a huge sacrifice to my feel. And can still sip your coffee while driving as opposed to gulping between shifts it in an MT....

 

Fixed. Jerkiness of an MT is directly proportional to your inability to drive one.

[tachikaze]

^ actually even when I super-smooth with my shifting I still can see my passenger's head dip forward & back with every shift.

[AKLGT]

doesn't the MT also have a "slushbox", the center diff?

 

Frankly, I couldn't care less about 0-60 performance on the drag strip.

 

All I care about is real-world performance, like 20-50 on-ramp merging, and especially 40-70 passing "with authority", and ease in getting me up a mountain road in the winter.

 

The advantage with manual in these instances is that the driver can pre-select the gear to be in the higher-rev torque sweet spot before the acceleration, but it seems to me that the 5EAT driver can also do this with the controls. . .

correct.

 

and agreed, no matter how good of a driver you think you are, in an MT, there will always be some jerkiness in shifting gears, especially from 1-2.

[ShadowImg]

correct.

 

and agreed, no matter how good of a driver you think you are, in an MT, there will always be some jerkiness in shifting gears, especially from 1-2.

 

The funny part is the 'cake and eat it too' of it. You could potentially shift a MT about as smoothly as an AT, but I would venture to say in doing so you would end up shifting considerably slower than the AT.

 

unclemat is just John Henry, leave him to his hammer

[AKLGT]

that is why i want a true DSG box. precise exact clean shifts when I actually shift the car (no delay) but buttery smooth with the dual clutch... no chance for me to fubar it up!

 

that is my "cake and eat it too"

[ShadowImg]

Well, or so we can hope. The problem is there's still the computer between you and the box itself. The auto's response time isn't because of the box, it's all the various crap it's doing to make sure it really wants to let you shift into that gear.

 

They could toss a DSG box in our cars with similar electronics and we'd gain almost nothing, and I wouldn't put it past Subaru to screw it up the first 4-5 times they try before they "get it".

[AKLGT]

well, I am holding out for that day..... than I can have my true MANU-MATIC! with the IPT VB modification, the car does shift faster than stock, however there's still a delay. I want to get rid of the delay completely.... but we'll see. I will soon be going back to an MT as a DD in the next month or so.