*** TPMS Info Thread ***

[ShadowImg]

They do cover the TPMS for 3/36k if you haven't changed the wheels or if the sensor wasn't damaged by another shop installing tires, or by anyone else. Why should they pay for you to purchase other wheels and cause the tpms sensor to come on?

 

If you have the factory wheels/tires and there is a defect, then they cover it.

 

Because the computer side of the TPMS system can only store 4 codes, unlike other manufacturers like Audi, who had the foresight to plan for this and can store 8.

 

Because you need a Subaru Select Monitor 3 to change said computer codes, which is a device that is not only difficult to get, but should you find a way, costs several thousand dollars.

 

Because shops that are not Subaru dealerships do not have access to the method to do it.

 

Because they left no method for the owners to do it themselves.

 

If those aren't enough reasons, I could probably come up with more. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed off if nobody but a Subaru dealership could change your oil, including yourself, and wanted to charge you $120 for each change?

[blackfang]

Because the computer side of the TPMS system can only store 4 codes, unlike other manufacturers like Audi, who had the foresight to plan for this and can store 8.

 

Because you need a Subaru Select Monitor 3 to change said computer codes, which is a device that is not only difficult to get, but should you find a way, costs several thousand dollars.

 

I see your point, but why should a manufacturer pay to reprogram something all because you wanted to alter the vehicle? Just because another manufacturer does, doesn't mean they all do.

 

Because shops that are not Subaru dealerships do not have access to the method to do it.

Correct and for very good reason, they are not trained by Subaru on that vehicle's system nor own the tools needed.

 

Because they left no method for the owners to do it themselves.

Again, you chose to alter the vehicle. Like Ford and other's they prefer that the owner can't for liability issues.

 

If those aren't enough reasons, I could probably come up with more. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed off if nobody but a Subaru dealership could change your oil, including yourself, and wanted to charge you $120 for each change?

Feel free. I wouldn't be pissed because I accept the responsibility of my actions in chosing to install different wheels/tires which knowingly alters what Subaru has set for standard operation.

[ShadowImg]

I see your point, but why should a manufacturer pay to reprogram something all because you wanted to alter the vehicle? Just because another manufacturer does, doesn't mean they all do.

 

The reasoning is basically because it is a 'performance' vehicle. It's pretty normal for anyone who drives them aggressively to keep a separate set of wheels/tires for winter and summer, as conditions are not the same, and to drive the car responsibly, you need the proper equipment.

 

It goes right along with other manufacturers of performance vehicles who will either warn or refuse to allow someone to drive a car off the lot in the middle of winter/bad climate weather when the vehicle comes equipped with tires not suitable for the situation. Subaru doesn't do this, they'll happily let you go flying out of the dealership on RE050s in a SpecB or STI in the middle of an ice storm in January.

 

There is a level of 'knowing the standards' that Subaru has set -- however they have published NO information on the TPMS system, so obviously owners are not expected to know the requirements they have set, nor the functional limitations. I've been through the owner's manual and TSBs on the vehicle quite thoroughly. No such limitations are ever mentioned, and my dealership certainly didn't know a thing about it. This is a responsibility that I place firmly on Subaru's shoulders -- not my own.

[blackfang]

The reasoning is basically because it is a 'performance' vehicle. It's pretty normal for anyone who drives them aggressively to keep a separate set of wheels/tires for winter and summer, as conditions are not the same, and to drive the car responsibly, you need the proper equipment.

 

Again you are failing to see the point. If you are chosing to modify the vehicle or use it in a particular fashion outside of what the manufacturer offers it for, then you are responsible for all and any costs associated with what you want to do period! Why should they cover your willingness to drive aggressively and want an extra set of wheels/tires?? You have no leg to stand on and I am sorry.

 

It goes right along with other manufacturers of performance vehicles who will either warn or refuse to allow someone to drive a car off the lot in the middle of winter/bad climate weather when the vehicle comes equipped with tires not suitable for the situation. Subaru doesn't do this, they'll happily let you go flying out of the dealership on RE050s in a SpecB or STI in the middle of an ice storm in January.

 

Again, what does that have to do with the fact that you want them to cover reprogramming a TPMS system because you decided to get different wheels and tires. Nothing states you can't get new tires if they are not good enough. You have no point that is valid enough to warrant it.

 

There is a level of 'knowing the standards' that Subaru has set -- however they have published NO information on the TPMS system, so obviously owners are not expected to know the requirements they have set, nor the functional limitations. I've been through the owner's manual and TSBs on the vehicle quite thoroughly. No such limitations are ever mentioned, and my dealership certainly didn't know a thing about it. This is a responsibility that I place firmly on Subaru's shoulders -- not my own.

Please read page 3-33 in your owners manual and it will tell you about replacement wheels and the TPMS.In fact it is in a warning section on that page and this is what it says

 

When a spare tire is mounted or a

wheel rim is replaced without the

original pressure sensor/transmitter

being transferred, the Low tire pressure

warning light will illuminates

steadily after blinking for approximately

one minute.

 

So you can not tell me that an average educated person can't figure out that if they replace the wheels without a new sensor the light will come on. You can not tell me that the owners manual has little to no information about the TPMS and when to take it to the dealer. In fact it explains it. Why is it Subaru's repsonsibility that you decided to change wheels?

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

[ShadowImg]

Please read page 3-33 in your owners manual and it will tell you about replacement wheels and the TPMS.In fact it is in a warning section on that page and this is what it says

 

When a spare tire is mounted or a

wheel rim is replaced without the

original pressure sensor/transmitter

being transferred, the Low tire pressure

warning light will illuminates

steadily after blinking for approximately

one minute.

 

So you can not tell me that an average educated person can't figure out that if they replace the wheels without a new sensor the light will come on. You can not tell me that the owners manual has little to no information about the TPMS and when to take it to the dealer. In fact it explains it. Why is it Subaru's repsonsibility that you decided to change wheels?

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

So where in here does it state that:

1) Only a Subaru dealer can reprogram the sensors

2) Only one set of sensors can be programmed into the system at a time

3) There is no way to disable the indicator

4) The sensor reprogram will cost over $100 in labor, which is in no way covered under standard warranty

5) The sensor seals are not-reusable, so every tire change requires approximately $35 in parts.

 

I'm an engineer by trade, and write technical documentation on my designs as a requirement for what I do. This is completely inadequate as end-user documentation for something, and is a terrible job on Subaru's part. As this failure is of their own doing, they should own up and take care of it. You can defend any position by simply saying "Oh that's intentional, you went outside of the scope of the design" to cover up a poor design, but that doesn't make it an acceptable response. Subaru has done an inadequate job here.

 

Also, saying things like "outside of the vehicle's intended purpose" is even more hogwash. Subaru sells optional wheels for their TPMS vehicles, which will experience this exact problem. Subaru also advertises these vehicles as performance cars. They do the Subaru challenge, among other things. You cannot say they do not endorse this, and to endorse these things can only responsibly be done by endorsing it using the proper equipment. The stock wheels/tires are not the proper equipment for these uses of the vehicle.

 

The reset procedure takes almost no effort and is not difficult. There are no parts involved, and if a dealership would lend me the use of their tools for 20 minutes, I could take care of it myself in their lot. It is entirely their fault for not bothering to provide a method for the owners to do it themselves.

 

Simply saying "Oh you chose to not follow their rules" is complete crap. If you really want to think that way, you're pretty much in the wrong place, as you're replying to a thread in a forum exclusively surrounding safe and proper methods for improving or modifying the wheel/tire components of these vehicles. We're talking about a wheel and a tire here. This is not of the level of "changing the vehicle" like replacing an ECU would be.

 

Do you work for Subaru's PR/Marketing/Legal department or something? I don't agree to disagree. I agree to you being wrong, and defending something that there is no reason to defend. Subaru failed here, and they should make up for it.

[blackfang]

So where in here does it state that:

1) Only a Subaru dealer can reprogram the sensors

2) Only one set of sensors can be programmed into the system at a time

3) There is no way to disable the indicator

4) The sensor reprogram will cost over $100 in labor, which is in no way covered under standard warranty

5) The sensor seals are not-reusable, so every tire change requires approximately $35 in parts.

 

All of that falls under the clause in the owners manual regarding if the light is on or flashing, see your dealer. Your average customer(this is where Subaru markets most of their vehicles to and sadly can't please everyone) will bring the vehicle in to the dealer to have it inspected.

 

I'm an engineer by trade, and write technical documentation on my designs as a requirement for what I do. This is completely inadequate as end-user documentation for something, and is a terrible job on Subaru's part. As this failure is of their own doing, they should own up and take care of it. You can defend any position by simply saying "Oh that's intentional, you went outside of the scope of the design" to cover up a poor design, but that doesn't make it an acceptable response. Subaru has done an inadequate job here.

Unfortunately SOA doesn't agree with you. There also has to be checks and balances on both ends of the manufacturer and owners. If they allow end-user changes, they run the risk of not only people breaking something or doing it wrong causing further issues. Then who warranties that? In addition to other potential problems. That is why they recommend you bring it to a dealer.

 

Also, saying things like "outside of the vehicle's intended purpose" is even more hogwash. Subaru sells optional wheels for their TPMS vehicles, which will experience this exact problem. Subaru also advertises these vehicles as performance cars. They do the Subaru challenge, among other things. You cannot say they do not endorse this, and to endorse these things can only responsibly be done by endorsing it using the proper equipment. The stock wheels/tires are not the proper equipment for these uses of the vehicle.

 

Marketing verse what you do with a product are two different things. I have seen cars driven on the side of buildings during their commercial. Am I to expect it can do that? Yes they sell "optional", notice the key word there, parts for a vehicle. They are not forcing you to buy them are they?

 

Simply saying "Oh you chose to not follow their rules" is complete crap. If you really want to think that way, you're pretty much in the wrong place, as you're replying to a thread in a forum exclusively surrounding safe and proper methods for improving or modifying the wheel/tire components of these vehicles. We're talking about a wheel and a tire here. This is not of the level of "changing the vehicle" like replacing an ECU would be.

Hardly, I am a car enthusiast myself. I accept the fact that if I do something to my vehicle that may "alter" it from what it came with from the factory, I am fully responsible for that. If I am not ready to accept the possible outcomes that may not be in my favor, I leave it as is.

 

Do you work for Subaru's PR/Marketing/Legal department or something? I don't agree to disagree. I agree to you being wrong, and defending something that there is no reason to defend. Subaru failed here, and they should make up for it.

 

Nope sure don't. You don't have to agree do disagree with me. I can though:)

[DrCloud]

It's clear that Subaru dropped the ball, badly, on this one.

 

Historically, Subaru has a loyal customer base in the intermountain west -- a place where many owners have sets of summer and winter wheels & tires -- and Subaru has let those folks down with a thud. Twice yearly visits to the Subaru dealership, with attendant costs, to swap out tires is a new wrinkle for these customers, and it's not one that any amount of RTFM "advice" would have prepared them for.

 

I expect that Subaru will fix this, probably by going to a TPMS computer that can store at least a couple of sets of wheels, in the near future. In the meantime, those of us with new model Subarus are stuck with the problem and (absent providing the ongoing stipend for the dealership) a kludge such as tape on the instrument window.

 

As far as the previous exchange goes, the implication that Subaru is somehow above criticism on this issue is simply the ranting of someone with his head stuck so far into an anatomically difficult place that he can see his own teeth from the inside. HPH

[blackfang]

As far as the previous exchange goes, the implication that Subaru is somehow above criticism on this issue is simply the ranting of someone with his head stuck so far into an anatomically difficult place that he can see his own teeth from the inside. HPH

 

Hardly. I just bring a different opinion on the issue even though I understand where many of you are coming from. Just because it is different than the majority doesn't mean my head is up my ass.

[DrCloud]

do you work for subaru's pr/marketing/legal department or something?

nope sure don't.

 

i work as a service writer for a subaru dealer.

[blackfang]

What is your point? I do not work for Subaru. I work for a dealer which is not the same thing. I am employed by a dealership that is owned by a group of people who sell and service Subaru's. Two different things.

 

Thanks for taking the time to research my life for this thread though

[DrCloud]

Your job as a service writer for a Subaru dealership explains your apologist stance for SOA, both with respect to this thread and in others of this nature.

 

It means that you have a material conflict of interest when it comes to objective criticism of SOA and its products. And this is a factor in your credibility. While you may be knowledgable about SOA products, far moreso than most readers here, your opinions are clearly not unbiased. And this affiliation explains why. HPH

[blackfang]

Your job as a service writer for a Subaru dealership explains your apologist stance for SOA, both with respect to this thread and in others of this nature.

You asked if I worked for Subaru, I answered your question correctly. I am sure I have a different outlook on certain things because I deal with the different aspects of the business than what a "customer" would. Unfortunately, I disagree with a majority of this thread.

 

It means that you have a material conflict of interest when it comes to objective criticism of SOA and its products. And this is a factor in your credibility. While you may be knowledgable about SOA products, far moreso than most readers here, your opinions are clearly not unbiased. And this affiliation explains why. HPH

Just because I work for a dealer doesn't mean I always agree and support SOA. There are times when I disagree with what SOA says. I am still expected to do my job though. Your idea of me having a conflict of interest is flawed and here is why.

 

That doesn't change the fact that I have had the same stance on this subject even when I worked for Toyota, with Ford and even when I worked for a non dealer repair shops. If you decide to modify your vehicle or decide to have an additional set of wheels/tires, then expect the repercussions that are associated with it. Even if it means you having to pay for it.

[ShadowImg]

I don't disagree with you on 'modifying' the vehicle. Wheels and tires, however, I put in the category with wiper blades, oil/oil filters, etc. These are basic wear/preference/situation items that need to be changed based on the environment and the use of the vehicle. A competent and responsible manufacturer (VAG being my reference in this situation) would account for the fact that different situations call for different wheels/tires, and make sure to allow for it.

 

The fact stands, Subaru dropped the ball.

[blackfang]

I don't disagree with you on 'modifying' the vehicle. Wheels and tires, however, I put in the category with wiper blades, oil/oil filters, etc. These are basic wear/preference/situation items that need to be changed based on the environment and the use of the vehicle. A competent and responsible manufacturer (VAG being my reference in this situation) would account for the fact that different situations call for different wheels/tires, and make sure to allow for it.

 

The fact stands, Subaru dropped the ball.

 

I am not saying they did or didn't drop the ball. I debated the fact it should not be warranty to reprogram the TPMS because a customer opted to buy an additional set of wheels/tires. Yes some manufacturers planned this and many other's did not.

 

Let me beat the horse some more and he might come back alive.

[ShadowImg]

I'm not saying it should be warrantied because a customer opted to buy an additional set of wheels/tires. I'm saying Subaru should step up and warranty it because it's the easiest option for them to compensate for their mistake.

[blackfang]

I'm not saying it should be warrantied because a customer opted to buy an additional set of wheels/tires. I'm saying Subaru should step up and warranty it because it's the easiest option for them to compensate for their mistake.

Sure you are, you are just using different terminology.

 

Maybe in their eyes it is not a mistake and that is how they designed the vehicle? Have you taken into fact that there are many more customers out there that do not have additional sets of wheels? A warranty is to cover a defective part that has gone bad before the warranty period is up. This does not fall into that category.

 

Should they allow more sensors to be programmed? Sure, but they shouldn't warranty it now.

[ShadowImg]

Every single Spec B that is sold in a region where temperatures drop below 45 degrees F should have a separate set of tires at a minimum. Ultimately it becomes cheaper to keep a cheap second set of wheels than to constantly mount/remount tires. Subaru should inform their owners of this, and expect owners to do this. If they were designing their vehicles to kill drivers in climates with freezing temperatures, I suppose.

[blackfang]

Every single Spec B that is sold in a region where temperatures drop below 45 degrees F should have a separate set of tires at a minimum. Ultimately it becomes cheaper to keep a cheap second set of wheels than to constantly mount/remount tires. Subaru should inform their owners of this, and expect owners to do this. If they were designing their vehicles to kill drivers in climates with freezing temperatures, I suppose.

 

You are looking at this as a Spec B issue and forgetting Subaru sells different models and in various different regions.

 

As for getting killed,I see that very unlikely. There are many many more people that drive in snow with fwd and rwd vehicles without serious problems and you are saying an awd vehicle will kill someone? I am shocked! I have driven mine with the stock Yokohama's tires in snow in the mountains of WVA and western MD and had zero issues.

[ShadowImg]

You're looking at this like a service issue, and not a design issue. You don't simply say only 20% of people get into accidents, so we're not going to put airbags on a car.

 

And no, I'm saying that the stock RE050s (on the Spec B), not the RE92s or others, are not suitable for driving not just in rain or snow, they are unsuitable for driving on even dry smooth pavement in temperatures below 45F. Incredibly dangerous, more so than the RE92s on ice. You're talking about completely different things.

[blackfang]

You're looking at this like a service issue, and not a design issue. You don't simply say only 20% of people get into accidents, so we're not going to put airbags on a car.

 

I am looking at this that Subaru makes different model vehicles that are sold in different climates. The TPMS is designed to do it's job and it is safe. A small group of people(The Spec B Community vs, Non Spec B Legacy, Forester, Tribeca, Outback and Impreza lines) rather have an extra set of wheels with better tires and this creates an issue with the TPMS. I am looking at this as an overall issue.

[ShadowImg]

What you don't seem to grasp is the safety of the stock tires. This is not a 'preference' or 'rather' -- this is the tires are unsuitable (you can go read Bridgestone's warnings if you want) for driving in any weather below that ambient temperature, even without precipitation. I'm guessing you've never driven on a set of similar tires in freezing temperatures. Imagine driving on tires of solid stone across an ice rink.

[blackfang]

What you don't seem to grasp is the safety of the stock tires. This is not a 'preference' or 'rather' -- this is the tires are unsuitable (you can go read Bridgestone's warnings if you want) for driving in any weather below that ambient temperature, even without precipitation. I'm guessing you've never driven on a set of similar tires in freezing temperatures. Imagine driving on tires of solid stone across an ice rink.

Then what you need to be doing is contacting the tire manufacturer and SOA about the tires being unsafe in certain conditions, not the fact that the TPMS doesn't allow you to have 8 sensors in the program.

[ShadowImg]

*slaps forehead* The tires are intentionally that way.

[blackfang]

*slaps forehead* The tires are intentionally that way.

 

So we went from SOA not warrantying reprogramming the TPMS system to accommodate a customer wanting an extra set of wheels to poor tire selection for a vehicle.

 

 

In case you haven't noticed, I am giving you a really hard time for fun

[DrCloud]

So the service writer continues to argue with the customers about customer preferences. That's customer service in action, folks!

 

When I first got my Spec.B, I was having some (Subaru) parts put on it at the dealership, so I had a conversation with the service writer. In the course of the conversation, he mentioned that I was going to get a free oil change at 1000 miles, a very nice perk.

 

I said that was great and that I'd save them some oil by bringing some Mobil 1 in the proper weight.

 

The poor guy had a cow. He said I should read the manual, that using synthetic would void the warranty, that new Subaru engines have a new alloy formulation that synthetic oil dissolves (I am not making this up).

 

So the lack of appreciation for customer needs and preferences we're seeing here isn't the worst thing that can happen with a Subaru service writer.

 

But I'm sure glad I don't have to deal with the Subaru dealer in Richmond, if this thread is any example of they treat customers. HPH