Pro-drive EBCS - w or w/o pill?

[integroid]

Just a FYI - I stuck in the factory pill to test out going to work, I hit 25 psi and jumped off the gas. I will be putting the regular hose back on. I guess maybe my WG port does need to be ported. I am not having a problem hitting target boost or the boost dipping anywhere. I am having a problem with creep. Hits target boost then starts to rise in the upper RPM range. Oh well, it was worth a shot.

[SeeeeeYa]

The WGDC is at 0 in the upper RPM range. I can't change anything on my tune since I am using an AP. My tuner would have to change it. Do you think it would be safe for me to try the pill and watch the boost gauge?

 

IMO, adding a pill will only make the situation worse. A pill would enable more boost, not less.

 

Also, IMO, you have boost creep which must addressed by the usual methods. Before any porting is done research thoroughly, there is a way to do it right, and a way to ruin the turbo.

 

Changing mufflers might cure it.

 

And you say "according to your tuner" the WGDC is 0.... what does your logging say? There is something very wrong with a tune that specifies 0% WGDC anywhere. You can't "tune" a dangerous installation.

[SeeeeeYa]

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44073&d=1192371091

 

Boostjunkie, he said that is where he put the pill. Between the compressor housing and the EBCS.

 

My setup goes like this -

 

Port 1 = WG ACtuator

Port 3 = Compressor Housing

Port 2 = Open

 

What size pill should I try? Where do I get this pill from? I think I still have the factory line somewhere...do you think I should just put that between the comp housing and the BCS?

 

My setup does not dip, it just hits target boost and then keeps climbing. Even with 0% WG according to my tuner. He wants me to take my turbo off and port the WG port. It is a DB zilla and should have been ported from DB.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Integroid, unless we are going by different diagrams you have the Prodrive hooked up wrong. If so, no wonder you are having the troubles you are.

[integroid]

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44073&d=1192371091

 

 

 

Integroid, unless we are going by different diagrams you have the Prodrive hooked up wrong. If so, no wonder you are having the troubles you are.

 

SOrry, I am using the perrin BCS and not the prodrive unit.

[integroid]

IMO, adding a pill will only make the situation worse. A pill would enable more boost, not less.

 

Also, IMO, you have boost creep which must addressed by the usual methods. Before any porting is done research thoroughly, there is a way to do it right, and a way to ruin the turbo.

 

Changing mufflers might cure it.

 

And you say "according to your tuner" the WGDC is 0.... what does your logging say? There is something very wrong with a tune that specifies 0% WGDC anywhere. You can't "tune" a dangerous installation.

 

I have a full 3" turbo-back exhaust. I wonder if the Downpipe might have something to do with it? It is an Invidia catless that has the little divorced section in the middle. Humm....maybe jsut a regular bellmouth DP would cure the problem?

[rc0032]

I have a full 3" turbo-back exhaust. I wonder if the Downpipe might have something to do with it? It is an Invidia catless that has the little divorced section in the middle. Humm....maybe jsut a regular bellmouth DP would cure the problem?

No IMO. Is it catted that would mater.

[SeeeeeYa]

I have a full 3" turbo-back exhaust. I wonder if the Downpipe might have something to do with it? It is an Invidia catless that has the little divorced section in the middle. Humm....maybe jsut a regular bellmouth DP would cure the problem?

 

A bellmouth DP arguably offers the best performance. So one would only make your creep worse.

 

When I chose my Cobb dp I got it with a HFC for two reasons; one, I'd been running catless and was tired of the smell, and two, I figured down the road the cat might offer the hedge against boost creep that seems to plague large open exhausts, just as rc says.

 

You are going to have to either decrease your exhaust efficiency or increase your wastegate efficiency. You can address the exhaust several ways. For the WG you can port it, again PROPERLY!, or install an EWG which would be best but more difficult. In any case you need to do something soon.

[LittleBlueGT]

As an interrupt or blocking?

 

reverse the setup.

 

Then again I run a really small pill but I dont over boost

 

Mine is set-up according to COBB's instructions. I believe it is blocking.

[LittleBlueGT]

rc, he's not overboosting. It's dipping.

 

I'm not convinced that it's not a mechanical problem associated with overtightening the WG actuator. The wastegate door seems like it gets stuck in two positions (open and close) rather than have an infinite number of open positions like it should have.

 

IIRC, when you loosened the actuator so that boost tapered to 10 psi at redline, the dip almost disappeared.

 

In the first chart that you posted here, it looks like the brown line has a much higher wg actuator spring pressure. Is the arm at the same location? I don't see why adding a pill would reduce the boost.

 

On another person's setup, where the spring pressure was setup to 10 psi at redline, I didn't see this dipping.

 

I couldn't find the logs, but when the WG arm was loosened such that it only boosted to about 12 psi, it still had the dip, just less pronounced. I have never had mine so loose that it would only hit 10 psi by red-line. I may try it though.

[LittleBlueGT]

Is that where you put the pill on your car LBGT? Is so, perhaps we can pull a page from their book and use that trick in our cars as well.

 

 

Between the pressure source and the pro-drive, yes.

[LittleBlueGT]

Just a FYI - I stuck in the factory pill to test out going to work, I hit 25 psi and jumped off the gas. I will be putting the regular hose back on. I guess maybe my WG port does need to be ported. I am not having a problem hitting target boost or the boost dipping anywhere. I am having a problem with creep. Hits target boost then starts to rise in the upper RPM range. Oh well, it was worth a shot.

 

A pill will absolutely only make it worse.

 

I used the stock pill in mine, if some of you were wondering.

[mickeyd2005]

Integroid, do you have a boost plot with WGDC = 0 across the board?

[LittleBlueGT]

Running it outside the efficiency range

 

Depends on your definition of outside efficiency range:

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/AVO380compmap.jpg

 

 

 

I will say that I was close, but not outside. The above chart was made with an overly large assumption of 2 psi loss at the TMIC. (likely more like 1 psi). FWIW I bet if we had comp charts of a VF40 and VF39 we would see that our typical stage2 looks very close to what I was pushing out of the AVO380. Trust me, I am not advocating it.

 

To keep things on track. Being close to edge of the comp chart had nothing to do with my boost bump. It still happened at less then 15 psi which is well within the efficiency range.

[bugblatterbeast]

crap, the formatting fubared..... how do I fix it? it looked ok when I pasted but came out all screwed up

2.1822962.6123492.924153.3424713.7725204.2125704.2125704.7926465.3726975.827756.3828436.9629427.429997.8330737.9831607.9832647.9832648.1233238.1234208.1234988.2735628.4136308.2737088.4137998.4138898.4139418.2740348.2740348.1240918.1241668.1242758.1243308.2744208.1244768.1245808.1246558.1247058.1247057.9847957.9848627.8349347.8350227.6950707.695159

 

 

low boost actuator + WGDC = 0 I can't find the logs with more preload but they were very similar, just shifted up. a large diaphragm to WG flapper area ratio helps keep things controllable.

 

I don't think there is a problem with WG size. it is quite possible to hold low pressures.

 

the actuator mount was modified to prevent binding.

[mickeyd2005]

Cut and paste it into notepad as text first.

 

Then cut and paste it into the forum.

 

2.18 2296

2.61 2349

2.9 2415

3.34 2471

3.77 2520

4.21 2570

4.21 2570

4.79 2646

5.37 2697

5.8 2775

6.38 2843

6.96 2942

7.4 2999

7.83 3073

7.98 3160

7.98 3264

7.98 3264

8.12 3323

8.12 3420

8.12 3498

8.27 3562

8.41 3630

8.27 3708

8.41 3799

8.41 3889

8.41 3941

8.27 4034

8.27 4034

8.12 4091

8.12 4166

8.12 4275

8.12 4330

8.27 4420

8.12 4476

8.12 4580

8.12 4655

8.12 4705

8.12 4705

7.98 4795

7.98 4862

7.83 4934

7.83 5022

7.69 5070

7.69 5159

 

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/mickeyd2005/bbbwgdc0.jpg

[LittleBlueGT]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/mickeyd2005/bbbwgdc0.jpg

 

 

That is pretty low.

 

I didn't think I could go that low and still get good response.

 

My response is definitely different. Your seems to go right to your WG spring value and stay there, whereas mine slowly climbs there.

 

What temps?

[Infamous1]

I am assuming all this is really not a factor on the vf40 as it doesn't hold boost up top anyways? I have my Prodrive solenoid sitting on my computer desk right now and debating if I should use it. As of right now I am already seeing super quick spool (w/FMIC) and boost is fairly under control on the stock bcs.

[mickeyd2005]

No.

 

This topic is in regards to the dip after hitting peak.

 

It could happen on any size turbo.

[bugblatterbeast]

around 20C

[mickeyd2005]

Okay, I took the liberty of plotting someone else's log.

 

This is WGDC = 0, 3 port BCS on a stock VF40 and stock actuator.

 

The boost is creeping due to the catless downpipe and full turbo back.

 

However, the point is that there is no dip after the actuator starts to open. LBGT, I think there is a mechanical problem with your setup. The comparison that you did is not 1:1 because the restrictor pill plot is based off a MUCH tighter wound actuator than the one with the restrictor pill. The way the adjustable AVO actuator works is by shortening the stroke. So, in order for you to get that much preload in your actuator, the full stroke must have changed. I think you're getting a binary type actuation.

 

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/mickeyd2005/vf40prodrivebcs.jpg

[Infamous1]

That is the reason I suspected something faulty in LBGT's setup as both displayed a dip. Mine is not dipping without the pill.

[LittleBlueGT]

That is the reason I suspected something faulty in LBGT's setup as both displayed a dip. Mine is not dipping without the pill.

 

What do you mean, both?

[LittleBlueGT]

Okay, I took the liberty of plotting someone else's log.

 

This is WGDC = 0, 3 port BCS on a stock VF40 and stock actuator.

 

The boost is creeping due to the catless downpipe and full turbo back.

 

However, the point is that there is no dip after the actuator starts to open. LBGT, I think there is a mechanical problem with your setup. The comparison that you did is not 1:1 because the restrictor pill plot is based off a MUCH tighter wound actuator than the one with the restrictor pill. The way the adjustable AVO actuator works is by shortening the stroke. So, in order for you to get that much preload in your actuator, the full stroke must have changed. I think you're getting a binary type actuation.

 

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/mickeyd2005/vf40prodrivebcs.jpg

 

 

I am actually fairly sure I didn't change the pre-load, it was just cooler temps.

 

As an example, my VF40 would creep to 16 psi with 0% WGDC, in the real cold. In the heat, it would only hit about 11.

 

I will try more experiments when I can to try and get this 100% solved mechanically before I continue with boost control.

 

FWIW I can hit 17 psi with my current set-up (which is the same as the original graphs lower two plots) when the temps are -35F.

[LittleBlueGT]

I did a quick run today, temp 20F.

 

Notice I boost a little higher then the last one, but still the same curve.

 

I will try again when I get in to the -10s or so. Purple is 3rd gear, light blue is 4th gear.

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/BoostpumpJan26.jpg

[mickeyd2005]

The kink in the curve should not be temperature dependent.

 

In both curves, it looks like the wastegate spring pressure is the same, about 10 psi.