Toyota/Subaru sports car details

[BigT]

Info about the new AE 86 found on page 25 of the Novemeber issue of Road and Track. Looks like it is due for 2011, and will most likely be powered by a 1.5 liter inline 4 that'll deliver about 120 bhp. car will be about 2500 lb.

 

I would think they would use a boxer engine.... seems like the toyota/subaru car may not be the new AE86

[chenc544]

Info about the new AE 86 found on page 25 of the Novemeber issue of Road and Track. Looks like it is due for 2011, and will most likely be powered by a 1.5 liter inline 4 that'll deliver about 120 bhp. car will be about 2500 lb.

 

I would think they would use a boxer engine.... seems like the toyota/subaru car may not be the new AE86

 

I just don't understand the point of a 120 hp, 2500 lbs, ~$17000 USD car. You can go out today and buy a '08 Corolla S for ~$15k, it weights ~2500 lbs and it's 1.8L puts out 126 hp! I know it's FWD vs RWD but at this low of power level it really doesn't matter. Now, if they make a turbo-1.5 version with 160-180 hp and sell it for less than $20k then they might give Mini Cooper S a good competition.

[SLegacy99]

I just don't understand the point of a 120 hp, 2500 lbs, ~$17000 USD car. You can go out today and buy a '08 Corolla S for ~$15k, it weights ~2500 lbs and it's 1.8L puts out 126 hp! I know it's FWD vs RWD but at this low of power level it really doesn't matter. Now, if they make a turbo-1.5 version with 160-180 hp and sell it for less than $20k then they might give Mini Cooper S a good competition.

Thats like saying was does Mercedes have the CLK when you could just buy an E class. Its all about variety.

[rabydanimal]

It begins...

 

I give Toyota a D- on this one. We'll never see it in the states because nobody will buy it.

[SLegacy99]

It begins...

 

I give Toyota a D- on this one. We'll never see it in the states because nobody will buy it.

Small cars = huge comeback = right now.

[BigT]

I just don't understand the point of a 120 hp, 2500 lbs, ~$17000 USD car. You can go out today and buy a '08 Corolla S for ~$15k, it weights ~2500 lbs and it's 1.8L puts out 126 hp! I know it's FWD vs RWD but at this low of power level it really doesn't matter. Now, if they make a turbo-1.5 version with 160-180 hp and sell it for less than $20k then they might give Mini Cooper S a good competition.

 

Isn't the mini cooper S like 30 grand? They would put them out of business!

[05LGTLtd]

How about a Subaru turbo boxer in a New MR2 package?? Then we'd have a RWD car to get excited about...

[chenc544]

Isn't the mini cooper S like 30 grand? They would put them out of business!

 

The base Cooper S is ~$22k. There are tons of options for the mini so you can easily get it up to $30k if you start adding them.

[IwannaSportSedan]

How about a Subaru turbo boxer in a New MR2 package?? Then we'd have a RWD car to get excited about...

 

If this were magic land, i would either manifest a car, or the skills to modify a car like that.

 

2nd Generation MR2 with some slick body modifications and a mid-engined turbocharged subaru H6 driving the rear wheels.

 

It would look like a normalized and toned down every-day Ferrari, powered by a mid-engine boxer, like a porsche, and not afraid to leave it parked in public, and not afraid to flog it mercilessly down the few curvy roads around here.

 

I would take a front engine/RWD or F/AWD chassis coupe if that is all there is available, but this proposed coupe should be a subaru, not a Toyota. It has a chopped Legacy/new Impreza chassis, and a subaru boxer engine. It has more Subaru DNA than Toyota DNA.

 

I saw a guy's slick-looking 2.5RS coupe, not overly modded, but tastefully non-stock, in bright silver the other day, on ISU campus. It still looks good. I can think of ways to make it better, and more current... like a roof line that is parallel to the belt-line of the car, and a sleeker, less vertical nose, and a more sophisticated tail treatment.

I so want Subaru to bring that car, and the SVX up to date, and sell them.

 

After seeing the new 08 STI's interior pics with SI-Drive/DCCD/6MT all right at hand, and a glowing STI logo on the console, and the electroluminescent red-ringed guages... That deserves to be in a lighter, sleeker, and cooler looking 2 or 3-door fastback coupe, instead of the dowdy bulbous 5-door body-style, or the completely bland new 4-door.

 

I wish I were half-way good at drawing, so I could render my ideas and designs on paper, or on the computer. They are in my head with no easy way out.

[chenc544]

I would take a front engine/RWD or F/AWD chassis coupe if that is all there is available, but this proposed coupe should be a subaru, not a Toyota. It has a chopped Legacy/new Impreza chassis, and a subaru boxer engine. It has more Subaru DNA than Toyota DNA.

 

I don't see why the badge on the nose should matter to you and I. Obviously most people here are Subaru fans but as long as it's a good car I don't care if it's a XYZ logo on the front. Regardless of what components are in the car, Toyota is the one that's putting up the money to get this car built. Subaru is acting like an engineering consultant/sub-contractor. If Subaru wants a copy of the car to sell then they can certainly negotiate with Toyota to sell a rebadged version. Otherwise why would you insist on buying a car from Subaru that they don't want to sell? Especially if the car is already available on the market as a Toyota/Scion.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Ideally, it shouldn't matter what badge. But I'll bet it will.

 

If this turns out to be a car with good potential, and with some money, I would try to re-badge it back to it's subaru roots.

 

But something just doesn't sit well with me, concerning Subaru's unique tech being co-opted, and then *watered down* by an appliance-maker like toyota. Why use Subaru tech for this? Why not use toyota's existing hardware and engines, turned for RWD?

 

From the sound of Autoblog's article the 1.5 engine is what they are testing with. Why? The Legacy chassis, a shortened version of which is supposedly what they are using here, doesn't get the 1.5 engine anywhere in the world. someone had to put it there on purpose for testing. barely more than 100hp seems watered down to me.

 

Reports of a weak rear diff as a reason for such low power also raise questions... is it using the rear diff out of an AWD RAV4 or something that it is so weak? Subaru rear diffs may not be Dana60's but they aren't that weak.

 

If these reports are true, this is going to be VERY watered down.

 

Meanwhile, to add insult to injury, Subaru still has no coupe whatsoever, unless this one somehow gets platform-shared back to Subaru. I am not convinced that this is going to be as good a car as the subaru potential would have it be, and it seems like toyota is making those decisions.

 

I am not sure that Subaru would want to sell a re-badged 108hp rear-drive coupe. That doesn't mean they shouldn't sell a 175-300hp AWD coupe.

 

If Subaru were to offer an econobox coupe, and it were to fail, due to having meager power and performance, they would probably then throw a temper tantrum, then take their ball and go home, because "it just proves that nobody wants a Subaru coupe."

 

Yeah, and nobody wants a Turbo Legacy sedan or wagon, either, right?

 

I don't trust these people to see beyond their own noses and offer the right product, Toyota especially, but Subaru also.

 

But if they did offer the right product, I would certainly be very happy to be proven wrong.

[SLegacy99]

I don't understand why there are using the 1.5L engine. Most of Scion has switched over to the 1.8L or 2.4L and even the next gen. Prius will be replacing its 1.5L with the newly valvematic 1.8L.

[IwannaSportSedan]

they are testing with the Subaru boxer 1.5 economy engine that is in the Impreza 1.5i model in europe/GB.

 

It isn't a toyota inline 4.

[SLegacy99]

they are testing with the Subaru boxer 1.5 economy engine that is in the Impreza 1.5i model in europe/GB.

 

It isn't a toyota inline 4.

Oh.

[chenc544]

Why use Subaru tech for this? Why not use toyota's existing hardware and engines, turned for RWD?

 

The cheapest RWD platform Toyota has is the Lexus IS. Apparently those are too expensive for the price target. That's where Subaru comes in.

 

From the sound of Autoblog's article the 1.5 engine is what they are testing with. Why? The Legacy chassis, a shortened version of which is supposedly what they are using here, doesn't get the 1.5 engine anywhere in the world. someone had to put it there on purpose for testing. barely more than 100hp seems watered down to me.

 

I agree, 100 hp is just not going to be enough. See my previous comments in this regard.

 

I don't trust these people to see beyond their own noses and offer the right product, Toyota especially, but Subaru also.

 

Toyota knows how to offer the right product. The right product for their bottom line, not necessary the right product for car enthusiasts. Toyota know what sells and that's why they are pushing GM for the #1 car marker in the world. Toyota has pretty much abandon the performance car segment for a while now. They know there isn't much money to be made in that segment. Despite what we might think, the Camry, Corolla and RAV4 of the world are far more profitable than the Supra, Celica or MR2. But Toyota is starting to realize that they need some desirable/halo cars to help with the brand image, especially with younger buyers. At the end of the day, these halo cars will help sell others on the lot, even if they themselves don't make much money. Toyota is trying to aggressively reenter this market with the Lexus F series, the LF-A, the suppose rebirth of Supra and this effort with Subaru. Whether or not they can come up with the right product mix for this segment remains to be seen.

[SLegacy99]

But Toyota is starting to realize that they need some desirable/halo cars to help with the brand image, especially with younger buyers. At the end of the day, these halo cars will help sell others on the lot, even if they themselves don't make much money. Toyota is trying to aggressively reenter this market with the Lexus F series, the LF-A, the suppose rebirth of Supra and this effort with Subaru. Whether or not they can come up with the right product mix for this segment remains to be seen.

Well isn't the whole point of Scion to capture the youunger buyers?

 

And from what I have seen of the LF-A that is an awesome car. Much better than the completely flaccid SC that has definately been worn out.

[SLegacy99]

Don't expect any thrills though as Impreza's new 16valve 1,5 litre boxer engine produces 105 Hp at 6.400 rpm and 14,5 Kgm of torque at 3.200 rpm. Combine that with the standard 4wheel drive system and the 1.280 kg weight and you already know that this version doesn't even come close to performance to the 160 Hp 2.0R. Kind of strange that a company like Subaru doesn't put a turbo kit on this engine, especially now, that most European companies like VW (1.4 litre TSI engine in 140 & 170 Hp versions) and Opel (1.6 Turbo with 180 Hp engine, more versions coming later ) are investing heavily in Turbo technology.

 

 

5speed Manual: According to Subaru, the 5speed manual 1.5R Sedan & Sports Wagon need 13,4 & 13,7 sec respectively for the 0 to 100 km/h (62 mph) sprint and reach a top speed of 174 & 168 km/h (108 & 104 mph).

 

4speed Auto : To make things worse, both versions of the Impreza 1.5R are available with a 4speed auto box. The result? 15,5 & 15,7 sec for the 0 to 100 km/h sprint and 169 & 162 km/h top speed for the Sedan & Station Wagon respectively.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I agree with pretty much all that you are saying. but it doesn't really offer any real consolation.

 

Toyota knows how to offer the right product. The right product for their bottom line, not necessary the right product for car enthusiasts.

 

And that is why Toyota is at an all time low, when people are polled for what they think is fun to drive. I believe Toyota even formed a committee or something to look into revitalizing their image for desireable, not just reliable cars.

 

Toyota know what sells and that's why they are pushing GM for the #1 car marker in the world. Toyota has pretty much abandon the performance car segment for a while now. They know there isn't much money to be made in that segment. Despite what we might think, the Camry, Corolla and RAV4 of the world are far more profitable than the Supra, Celica or MR2.

 

But Toyota is starting to realize that they need some desirable/halo cars to help with the brand image, especially with younger buyers. At the end of the day, these halo cars will help sell others on the lot, even if they themselves don't make much money.

 

Agreed. But they still don't have any. They went from having one of the fastest Japanese sport coupes, the last gen Supra, and one of the only affordable mid-engined car, the MR2, and grenaded them both. Supra was too expensive to be sustainable, and MR2 Spyder was affordable, but wasn't practical enough for so much as a bag of groceries. Mazda, Nissan, and others are bringing their cars back, and the Miata never left, but Toyota is still sans a sporty car, save the econo-based tC. I still don't know why they cancelled the Celica for the tC.

 

Toyota is trying to aggressively reenter this market with the Lexus F series, the LF-A, the suppose rebirth of Supra and this effort with Subaru. Whether or not they can come up with the right product mix for this segment remains to be seen.

 

The IS-F is ugly. I have a feeling it is going to be an also-ran to the BMW M3 V8, which is now in three body-styles, and not as ugly. I think the upcoming refreshed CTS-V is going to clean it's clock, too.

 

The LF-A has been rumored for years, and they still can't come up with anything. Neither can Honda/Acura. The concepts are sterile and odd looking, and continue to be not ready for production. Not only that, but a luxury division is not exactly the best place for a halo sports coupe. Nissan made the right choice to keep the GT-R under the nissan nameplate, not marketing it as an Infiniti, which would give it a plush perception, rather than a hard sporting edge.

 

I am sorry, but when I hear: "1.5 liter boxer with 108hp, due to weak rear differential, and rear-drive only" I am thinking that Toyota is a bit out of their minds.

 

First, not a performance model. A performance model CANNOT have parts that can even be doubted as weak, right off the showroom floor. Completely ANTI-performance-tuning.

 

Second, why a Rear-drive-only coupe with only 108hp... First part says performance, second says econobox. Usually econoboxes don't suit RWD, which is less efficient to manufacture, and heavier than FWD. And Usualy RWD is suited for performance, which doesn't jive with 108hp and light-duty parts.

 

Third, RWD only probably precludes a subaru platform mate, if they design the front drive axles out of the chassis.

 

This seems like Toyota is trying to re-create the AE86 Corolla coupe, which was a RWD economy car when most cars were just moving over to FWD in the mainstream, and RWD was still the old standard. The AE86 had enough common parts with other toyota vehicles that it could be modified to be a bit of a budget performer, and didn't have a drastic weakness designed in.

 

But now, this proposed vehicle is going to be a new design, probably not completely compatible with other Toyota (FWD), or other Subaru (AWD, and higher power than the toyota parts may be able to handle) performance parts, and may be too limited to be easily and cheaply transformed into a budget performer, and most people don't buy brand new cars to immediately hack apart. It has to be sold on it's merits first, and then maybe on the used market, it will find a second life.

 

But if this car costs nearly 20k, and would require another 10k of modifications to make it perform, including an entire suspension and driveline swap, including all the inherent electronic systems, just to be as fast than the average family sedan, then why not by a 30k performance car to begin with, like say, a 350Z or Mustang GT, Camaro, or something else.

 

If you are looking at it as an economy car, then why a boxer engine and RWD, when most economy cars do just fine with FWD, and a lighter, readily available toyota drivetrain, and people feel more secure with in foul weather?

 

RWD is becoming relegated to powerful luxury cars, and performance cars, due to it's handling, and traction control being able to keep it inline in foul weather. It is seeing a measured resurgence in those markets, thankfully. But it makes very little sense in a purely economical sense. FWD is easier to modularly assemble, is lighter weight, and more compact to package around. The yaris is not a RWD car because it doesn't need to be.

 

The question is, why would anyone want a RWD yaris, even if it is clothed in a bit sleeker of a coupe package?

 

When you talk about a sleeker coupe package, that says something about the intended audience of the car, and that is something a bit more than an economy car, even if it is RWD for some reason. Add some power and some handling, and then it is getting closer to something recognizeable.

 

I know Toyota needs more excitement. I don't see how an empty shell of a coupe with 108hp does that, even if it looks good. The test drive will be a let down.

 

On the flip side, the WRX STI's new interior, and the features it has would make GREAT sense in a sleeker street coupe, and probably sell pretty briskly, not only by Subaru standards. If Subaru would get off it's corporate butt, and let people know about it, if they were to build it.

 

I am not saying they shouldn't have the 5-door WRC-replica body. But that car isn't winning beauty contests, and it isn't selling magazines, or bringing people into Subaru showrooms in search of "the new hotness."

 

Altima is coming as a new coupe. Accord is coming as a new, albeit bigger coupe, and the Civic coupe has it's fans. RX8 is getting refreshed soon, and the Miata is out with a hard roof. Solstice is being rumored to be a coupe, or targa roof. The C30 and Mini are both 3-doors that look good. Coupes are even coming in upmarket, the G37, 3-series, Z4 coupe, Cayman, GT-R, and more. The coupe is not the black hole market that it was a few years ago.

 

A Subaru compact but sleek and good looking coupe with the 2.5i-WRX-STI drivetrains and new interior could be a very good thing. A 25-35k Legacy-based larger GT coupe with 2.5 GT/STI/H6 drivetrain could also be a very nice car.

 

Yet toyota is building a Subaru-based coupe with RWD and 108hp... It defies logic.

[05LGTLtd]

The cheapest RWD platform Toyota has is the Lexus IS. Apparently those are too expensive for the price target. That's where Subaru comes in.

 

Tacoma?? It's availble in six-speed too. They are heavy gearboxes, though. At least the one in the '96 I did a clutch on was..

 

I also agree that the "weak" rear dif sounds fishy.

 

What would be real nice if they just scraped the admitted weak diff and developed a rear transaxle for a front mounted engine. with the subaru engine you could get 50/50 f/r weight I'd bet...

[chenc544]

Tacoma?? It's availble in six-speed too. They are heavy gearboxes, though. At least the one in the '96 I did a clutch on was..

 

Tacoma platform has a ladder frame design. For starters it's not for cars, not to mention the weight problem even with aluminum construction.

[chenc544]

A Subaru compact but sleek and good looking coupe with the 2.5i-WRX-STI drivetrains and new interior could be a very good thing. A 25-35k Legacy-based larger GT coupe with 2.5 GT/STI/H6 drivetrain could also be a very nice car.

 

Personally I would like to see a 3-doors fast back version of the WRX/STI or LGT coupe. But I'm pretty sure Subaru looked into it and decided that the extra sales that they might pick up is not worth the additional cost. Again, the bottom line rules, they have to make money to be stay in business. In fact I remember back a year or two when the rumors were saying that the STI could be a 3-doors hatch but it was later nixed because of cost. We have to remember that Subaru is not Toyota or Honda. They don't have the resources or the sales volume to help justify multiple variants of the same car.

 

This seems like Toyota is trying to re-create the AE86 Corolla coupe, which was a RWD economy car when most cars were just moving over to FWD in the mainstream, and RWD was still the old standard. The AE86 had enough common parts with other toyota vehicles that it could be modified to be a bit of a budget performer, and didn't have a drastic weakness designed in.

 

Yet toyota is building a Subaru-based coupe with RWD and 108hp... It defies logic.

 

They are very much trying to recreate the AE86. Unfortunately the DOHC AE86 actually has 130 hp and weights only 2000 lbs! It will actually outrun the proposed spec of this new "AE86"... Like you said, it defies logic. The only logical solution I can think of is that this is only the base model. Maybe the higher trim level will have a turbo on the 1.5 and makes 160-180 hp. They could give mini a good competition with that engine and 2500 lb car.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Personally I would like to see a 3-doors fast back version of the WRX/STI or LGT coupe. But I'm pretty sure Subaru looked into it and decided that the extra sales that they might pick up is not worth the additional cost. Again, the bottom line rules, they have to make money to be stay in business. In fact I remember back a year or two when the rumors were saying that the STI could be a 3-doors hatch but it was later nixed because of cost. We have to remember that Subaru is not Toyota or Honda. They don't have the resources or the sales volume to help justify multiple variants of the same car.

 

I think you and I are agreeing on just about everything.

 

this comes back to the chicken vs egg debate. Subaru doesn't sell a lot of cars, so it has to be frugal about what it develops to sell.

 

The question is... if Subaru were to build a three-door that looked good, rather than a dowdy 5-door and a boring 4-door, and were to give it WRX and STI levels of performance, would it sell well.

 

Sure it will cost more, but platform sharing costs less than developing a stand-alone chassis for one model, as they did with the SVX. But there is no big reward without big risk.

 

Personally, I think a good looking subaru coupe would blow the lid off.

 

300hp/6MT for $30k. 250hp/5MT for $25k or a bit less. Maybe an econo 2.5i model that starts under 20k.

 

BTW, They should have replaceable audio/ICE, and 5x114.3 wheel bolt pattern, and fender flares for commonly available high-offset aftermarket wheels. (say 35 and up.) Tuners would love a car like this, and Subaru shouldn't road-block them with odd requirements.

 

For that money, though, a good looking coupe, with all of Subaru's technical benefits, and a marketing campaign that puts the thing out in the world, so people will notice.

 

But what else in the sport compact market could touch a good looking subaru hatchback/fastback coupe?

 

Ford Focus, not a chance. not even the old SVT. The mustang is much heavier, and wouldn't come close to the handling or traction for the same price and horsepower. Most probably wouldn't cross shop the Mustang GT all that much.

 

Mazda 3 doesn't have as much power, or a 3-door body-style. Kabura might compete, if it is really coming to market, like they say it is.

 

GM might compete with a hard-roof Solstice GXP or Sky Redline, but it would likely come up against a Subaru having slight rear seats (2+2) for practicality, and insurance reduction over 2-seat sports cars. Subaru would also have the edge in foul weather performance.

 

Honda has nothing. Civic, Accord coupes, and even new CR-Z concept car are all FWD, and nowhere near WRX or STI's power levels.

 

Toyota similarly, aside from the topic of this thread, the tC isn't in this league.

 

Hyundai is coming out with a RWD coupe. Subaru power and awd would likely blow it out of the water, if it has an I4 or V6.

 

Audi A/S5 is a bigger car, and S3 doesn't come in a 3-door in the US, although it should.

A good looking Subaru coupe with STI tech could probably do very well, even against the GTI or R32, which are boxy hatches.

 

It would also out-gun the Volvo C30, and Saab's 9^3 turbo XWD doesn't appear to be coming in a three-door coupe bodystyle.

 

If it were light enough, an STI coupe could theoretically challenge the likes of 350Z, as well, perhaps even Z4 and base Cayman's performance.

 

If Subaru could capitalize on their WRC heritage for the 5-door, why couldn't they morph that performance image into an even sportier looking 3-door street car with the same well-known powerhouse drivetrain.

 

heck, sponsor an SCCA racing class for it or something, as a tarmac racer, with the 5-door still being the WRC racer.

 

With the right car, a new coupe bodystyle could re-vitalize Subaru, the way the WRX did a few years back.

 

The question becomes, not whether they can afford to build a coupe, but whether they can afford not to grow with a new performance product.

 

I am not sure what other way they can grow. With the Tribeca, Outback, Outback Sport, and forthcoming Forester re-fresh, the all-weather people-carrier market is fairly completely covered, from Subaru's POV.

 

With the WRX/STI looking the way it does, and the Legacy GT being way under-supported, the high performance arm of Subaru could use the help.

 

Going head-to-head with the big boys (big 3 plus Honda, Toyota) for main-line sedan sales is not going to get them very far. Subaru can't compete with that economy of scale. Economy of scale also works against expensive development of new-technology-based, low sales margin economy cars and hybrids. A lot of dollars for cars that don't make much margin at the low end of the economic spectrum of car sales.

 

Subaru already makes cars and crossovers that are very capable and reliable, as I mentioned their "outdoorsy" vehicles. The only other thing that they are really good at, and already have in place, is high-performance. Clothing that high performance chassis in sleek and attractive body can only help sell more Subarus.

 

I can understand that Subaru is limited as to what it can do, and I agree to a point. But if it wants to grow, rather than die; this is the most logical way to grow in the short term, with the minimum of further R&D. Sport Coupe.

 

Then the second step is a larger touring coupe based on the Legacy, above the proposed impreza-based lightweight sport coupe that I am suggesting they need now.

[SLegacy99]

I agree, Subaru should have a sport coupe. When did they become 2 door haters? How weird.

[NateWA]

Toyota should leave subaru alone and just bring back the supra.. anybody hear anymore about that Toyota ft-hs thing? 400 hp hybrid with awd and convertable/targa hardtop for 35K??

[IwannaSportSedan]

I agree, Subaru should have a sport coupe. When did they become 2 door haters? How weird.

 

they became 2-door haters when the SVX didn't take off the way they wanted...

 

Then they didn't bother replacing the 2.5RS coupe when the bugeye impreza came along. And nothing since.

 

I guess try and quit is easier and cheaper than try, try again.