Have you switched tires? If so - Vote on braking improvement

[emlevins]

As you know, there have been several lively threads about the drawbacks of the Potenza RE-92s and also about the LGT's less than desirable braking performance in car mag tests. Some say the braking perfromance is largely due to the tires. Others think not. If you have upgraded tires, has your braking performance improved? Perhaps those of you who have switched tires can shed some light on this debate. Respond to the poll, but ALSO, IN A POST, LET US KNOW HOW YOU RESPONDED AND WHAT TIRES YOU SWITCHED TO....and please DO NOT VOTE IF YOU HAVE NOT SWITCHED TIRES. Many thanks.

[frontrangeSubie]

This should be moved to the Brakes area....right next to today's thread "Lousy Brakes" in Motor Trend..... [url]http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5486[/url]

[axis008]

Done! :) Thread moved to Suspension/Brakes.

[frontrangeSubie]

nice......8 people voted...not ONE comment on what tires they bought....if they bought any at all.......I seriously doubt it....lol This is an "opinion poll"

[sde]

i got 18" BFG T/A KDW 2 Tires. (see garage) Brakes worked pretty good before, and work pretty good now. no real noticable difference here.

[Boostjunkie]

Unless you guys are braking hard enough on a regular basis to engage the ABS, there is no possible way for the braking to be "better" with a tire swap. I have 225/35/19 Falken Azenis ST-115's on my car, and the braking is same as stock under normal driving conditions. I have not noted any improvement in the stopping power. This is due to the fact that I never exceeded the limits of adhesion of the stock RE-92's and have also yet to exceed the limits of my Falkens when braking. You will be able to bring the car to a stock faster with better tires as they simply will allow the brakes to slow the car faster without sliding, or forcing the ABS to modulate the amount of brake force. Subjectively the LGT's brakes feel weak. There is quite a bit of pedal travel, so even when the pedal is pressed down a fair amount it doesn't feel as if there is a lot going on. However, I think that there is plenty of braking power in reserve, you just have to get into the brake pedal more to access it. No big deal, and I do find the brakes progressive and smooth. To draw a parallel, many cars have throttles that open a disproportionate amount for a given input on initial throttle tip-in. IE: the throttle butterfly moves much more than it should when you first get on the gas. This makes people feel that a car is faster and more powerful than it really is. It's like "WOW!, I barely touched the gas and the car just jumps!" Problem is that once you get past that first bit of travel and response curve levels out and you end up with "geez, not a whole lot more power when you really get on it". The opposite is true as well. Mercedes is well known for a slow throttle tip-in. I think their reasoning is that it makes it easier to drive the car smoothly. You really have to dig into the throttle to make a MBZ more from the line. Some could easily mistake this for lack of power. Given some of the insanely powerful cars that MBZ is currently putting out, they would be clearly wrong. Anyways, better tires make for better stopping performance at the limit. At anything less than the limit of adhesion, there is nothing to be gained braking wise from a tire swap.

[frontrangeSubie]

[quote name='Boostjunkie']Unless you guys are braking hard enough on a regular basis to engage the ABS, there is no possible way for the braking to be "better" with a tire swap. I have 225/35/19 Falken Azenis ST-115's on my car, and the braking is same as stock under normal driving conditions. I have not noted any improvement in the stopping power. This is due to the fact that I never exceeded the limits of adhesion of the stock RE-92's and have also yet to exceed the limits of my Falkens when braking. You will be able to bring the car to a stock faster with better tires as they simply will allow the brakes to slow the car faster without sliding, or forcing the ABS to modulate the amount of brake force. Subjectively the LGT's brakes feel weak. There is quite a bit of pedal travel, so even when the pedal is pressed down a fair amount it doesn't feel as if there is a lot going on. However, I think that there is plenty of braking power in reserve, you just have to get into the brake pedal more to access it. No big deal, and I do find the brakes progressive and smooth. To draw a parallel, many cars have throttles that open a disproportionate amount for a given input on initial throttle tip-in. IE: the throttle butterfly moves much more than it should when you first get on the gas. This makes people feel that a car is faster and more powerful than it really is. It's like "WOW!, I barely touched the gas and the car just jumps!" Problem is that once you get past that first bit of travel and response curve levels out and you end up with "geez, not a whole lot more power when you really get on it". The opposite is true as well. Mercedes is well known for a slow throttle tip-in. I think their reasoning is that it makes it easier to drive the car smoothly. You really have to dig into the throttle to make a MBZ more from the line. Some could easily mistake this for lack of power. Given some of the insanely powerful cars that MBZ is currently putting out, they would be clearly wrong. Anyways, better tires make for better stopping performance at the limit. At anything less than the limit of adhesion, there is nothing to be gained braking wise from a tire swap.[/QUOTE] AMEN! Thats what I have been saying....changing tires makes no difference. Here is the link to a post where MotorTrend has the Legacy DEAD last of all cars tested in 2004 braking from 60 mph to 0. [url]http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5486[/url] So I have it as 2 for changing the tires makes no difference in braking...and 0 for the others.... The poll above is a joke unless you post some results like 2 have...and those results showed no difference. The Legacy's brakes are horrible......

[sduford]

You guys are not making sense. Of course changing tires makes no difference in NORMAL braking. The point is MAXIMUM braking, and that is what the car magazines are testing!!! The ABS brakes will bring the tires up to their limit, once they've reached that limit, the brakes can't do anything more. Do you Motro Trend just leisurely steps on the brakes making sure they do not solicit the ABS and just gingerly come to a full stop? Of course not, they are testing for MAXIMUM braking power and MINIMUM braking distance. And it wouldn't matter if the Legacy had the most powerful brakes in the world, if the tires cannot generate more friction with the pavement, it ain't gonna stop any faster. We're not talking about how the brakes feel either, we're talking about measured minimum braking distance. The Legacy has HUGE and POWERFUL brakes, the only thing keeping them from doing their job is the tires. These tires are awful: the first time I had to do a hard stop on slightly wet pavement I just couldn't believe how much they slipped. It took me about 50% as long to stop as I would have expected from my much heavier Highlander equipped with Michelin Cross-Terrains, and it sure wasn't because the brakes weren't strong enough.

[agctr]

I am running with the same tyres as I purchased the car with, we here in Oz run a lot different original tyres to you guys in the states. I find the Potenza tyres work fantastic in both dry and wet. Adam.

[sduford]

Which model of Potenzas do you have? There are many different models, some of them are excellent tires.

[Boostjunkie]

[quote name='sduford']You guys are not making sense. Of course changing tires makes no difference in NORMAL braking. The point is MAXIMUM braking, and that is what the car magazines are testing!!! The ABS brakes will bring the tires up to their limit, once they've reached that limit, the brakes can't do anything more. Do you Motro Trend just leisurely steps on the brakes making sure they do not solicit the ABS and just gingerly come to a full stop? Of course not, they are testing for MAXIMUM braking power and MINIMUM braking distance. And it wouldn't matter if the Legacy had the most powerful brakes in the world, if the tires cannot generate more friction with the pavement, it ain't gonna stop any faster. We're not talking about how the brakes feel either, we're talking about measured minimum braking distance. The Legacy has HUGE and POWERFUL brakes, the only thing keeping them from doing their job is the tires. These tires are awful: the first time I had to do a hard stop on slightly wet pavement I just couldn't believe how much they slipped. It took me about 50% as long to stop as I would have expected from my much heavier Highlander equipped with Michelin Cross-Terrains, and it sure wasn't because the brakes weren't strong enough.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree with you one bit. I said that in normal situations you will not notice a difference from changing tires, because there isn't one. If our discussion is max braking, then of course better tires with more traction will improve braking distances. To quote my previous post: [I]You will be able to bring the car to a stop faster with better tires as they simply will allow the brakes to slow the car faster without sliding, or forcing the ABS to modulate the amount of brake force.[/I] I certainly do not think the stock brakes suck. I think some of the subjective issues, such as initial bite and pedal feel can be fixed with ss brake lines and more aggressive pads. As to total stopping distances, better tires do help.

[QTwo]

I could mod the crap out of my engine and dial the boost up to 40, but I most definitely wouldn't see a difference in NORMAL driving. The post is related to improving braking in sporty, panic or maximum situations. If you have never reached the max grip of the RE-92's can't see why the upgrade to a larger wheel and tire other than bling. The 92's are horrible and even moderate braking into an off ramp incites ABS intervention. The resulting tire squirm on the offramp can be a little fun as you slide around but hardly confidence inspiring. A quick note on braking. The new M5 has massive rotors and the wheel size could accept larger still. The M engineers have determined that clamping forces and rotor size are not the limiting factor. The ultimate grip of the tire is, so until better tire compounds are created for the street, there is no sense going with more "powerful" brake systems. Upgrade the pads and the tires and there will be a significant difference as Paul Hanson has attested. I will let everyone know in the spring.

[gtguy]

I noticed a substantial difference when switching to the Dunlop 9000s, not in everyday, 35-0 braking, but highway stuff and the like. This makes sense when you think about it, though. Tire grip does affect braking. If the tires are slippy, even at everyday speeds, there is less grip than there would be with a "better" (relative term) tire. Improve tire grip and braking improves in every parameter. There's just no way that a nicer tire could improve handling and not braking. Grip affects everything. Mind you, I'm on record as believing that the RE-92s that come on the Legacy aren't a bad tire at all. Kevin

[Paul G.]

Not voting, because I haven't changed tires yet, but the operative word is "yet". On dry pavement, everything is ok. On snow also pretty good, but I have the sense to take it easy. On a wet road these tires have embarrasingly poor grip on the brakes. I have the scratches on my front bumper to prove it. They'll be going as soon as I save up the cash. P.

[sduford]

Even my all-out winter tires (Michelin X-Ice) break significantly better on wet pavement then the RE-92As did. I'm happy those tires are gone forever, even though I vitually had to give them away on eBay.

[jmcgliss]

2000 LGT wagon ran two sets of OE RE 92s for 15,000 miles each (ebay deals). Wet and snow required much more caution than other cars we were driving. Changed to ContiExtremeContact and confidence under all conditions went way up and I still feel that way 15,000 miles later. Tread pattern rocks for accel, braking, and more importantly at any slip angle.

[XT6Wagon]

Both my bald as a 18year old skinhead RE-070's and fairly new Pilot sport all seasons are signifigantly better than the RE-92's in all aspects. Well ok the wornout RE-070's are louder and ride slightly worse. Sadly wet grip is still up until you get signifigant standing water. the Pilot sports are PERFECT for a daily driver LGT. dead quiet, rides better than stock, and perfect level of grip. The 070's overwhelm the stock suspension something sick. The Michelins are not quite as grippy, but this doesn't hinder handling too much as the extra grip only upsets the car (I've nearly had my wagon on 2 wheels w 070's). Braking wise, you can brake with STi's given equal tires.... for a short while, then the rotors warp. No pad or fluid fade, just massive shuddering if you use them hard for very long at max decel. IE need some cheap chinese rotors with thier extra mass or maybe some extra tough brembo rotors for track days on good tires.

[2Simpletons]

I know this has been asked before...but...is there an 'as quiet' (or quieter), better, cheaper, grippier all season than the stock RE92s? What are some top suggestions? I actually don't think these 17" RE92s are that bad in comparison with my old 16" WRX RE92s...

[RobY]

[quote name='2Simpletons'] I actually don't think these 17" RE92s are that bad in comparison with my old 16" WRX RE92s...[/QUOTE] Cause thats like comparing a turd do a polished turd :D

[XT6Wagon]

The Pilot sport A/S is in every way better than the RE-92's including road noise. I used a 225/45R17. BTW it looks like the GT's stock tires are closer to a 215/50R17 than whats printed on the sidewall as 225/45R17 pilot sport a/S, 225/45R17 RE-070's, and 245/40R17 hoosiers are all a good bit smaller in diamiter.

[tsyGT]

Switched to Proxes 4s- panic braking is much much improved, especially in the wet. I was getting ABS to kick in on a regular basis in the rain here in Seattle with the RE-92a's. Almost never kicks in now. tom

[2Simpletons]

XT6...so you got a pretty big grip increase going to the Pilot A/S over the RE92s? How stiff is the sidewall on the Pilots? Is there a rim protector? Thanks.

[PGT]

Have two sets of wheels now, both 18's with 225/40/18. Bridgestone SO-3 for summer and Kumho Ecsta ASX for winter. The Kumho's are very close to stock in ride quality/noise, but handle and brake better. The SO-3s are better all the way around, but are brutal on ride quality. Makes me want to ditch them for something a little less stiff in the sidewall once I wear them out (Pirellis?)