Enginuity Tune (vs. Ecutek)

[Legend]

On 7/31 my car had an Ecutek tune for stage 2 (SPT intake, Titek UP, Perrin catted DP, SPT cbe). I was disappointed with the results. 210HP, 226TQ. Granted this is on a Dyno Dynamics at 5300 ft. but I still expected 230HP based on what I had seen in this area (Denver). My peak boost was 14.0, and the tuner and I agreed we would push it to 15.5. The Ecutek software would not respond, and for the last several weeks my peak boost has been 12.7. Ecutek reverted to an odd somewhat stock sort of tune and would not even let the original tune back. I was not the only client with the Ecutek problem. To make a long, long story short, see my other thread about the Ecutek tune.... http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67412 Bottom line is 3 or 4 of us needed Ecutek for a fix with their software and weeks went by with nothing. Enter Enginuity.

 

Another tuner at the same shop did this Enginuity tune (but the Ecutek tuner was also there and witnessed this tune). Same dyno, same car. Much better results.

 

Stock LGT's get 170-175HP on this dyno. Mwiener got 234 and he is the highest 2.5L turbo stage 2 on this dyno. I got 228 and I am happy with that with my 18" wheel/tire package. I got some pretty sweet AUC on these power curves and I am real happy. Here are the dyno sheets. Note that as boost increases, peak HP decreases! The tuner explained that any turbo (or any fan for that matter) has an ideal efficiency and pushing it past that efficiency results in less power. Interesting. It looks like I do better with a peak of ~14.2 vs. a peak of 15.5.

 

More later... Logs coming soon.. I'm anxious to see my MAF now. I was moving good air (for Denver) of 208 g/sec before and will be interesting to see what it is now.

[awalla5150]

good results

[2005garnetGT]

good stuff

[MiniStiGuy]

glad to see you got a change now....

[BigHonu]

Nice!

[enthusiast]

So, the place in Boulder has two different tuners there? I thought there was only one.

 

Interesting.

[Legend]

Alright I did some quick logs this a.m. Two runs, both on hills unfortunately... one up and one down. The car feels good and I am moving a lot of air for Denver (215 g/s).

 

Thoughts? Room for improvement??

Enginuity 8-30 downhill.pdf

Enginuity 8-30 uphill.pdf

[mickeyd2005]

That is a much better tune than before.

 

It could still use some tweaking for slightly more power between 2500 and 4000 rpm.

 

If you look at your timing between 3000 and 3500 rpm, you will always find a drop in total timing by 3 degrees with no change in KC. This is not knock. This is a secondary timing compensation and it interferes with proper tuning of your timing. enginuity refers to it as a secondary temperature compensation but SOA filled all values with the same value (3 degrees), so it really doesn't vary with temperature. The logic is such that it turns on and off anywhere between 3000 and 3500 rpm. I usually reduce this value to 1 across the board and adjust timing manually via the base timing.

 

Take a look at your uphill log. Your minimum timing is 11 degrees between 3500 and 3600 rpm. However, your boost onset is really closer to 3100 rpm. I would expect the minimum timing to be between 3000-3100 rpm and you could probably run more timing at 3500-3600 rpm.

 

The AVCS looks convservative.

 

Overall, it looks like a fine tune. Sometimes, enginuity tuners will update your maps via email for a small fee.

[mickeyd2005]

FYI. I just finished helping BigHonu tune his LGT Stage 1. We'll see how his AVCS works out.

 

http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.php?t=2265&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=c08d732ab48af03760129358eb494388

 

BTW, AVCS is a b*tch to tune without real timing tuning.

[LittleBlueGT]

This is a secondary timing compensation and it interferes with proper tuning of your timing. enginuity refers to it as a secondary temperature compensation but SOA filled all values with the same value (3 degrees), so it really doesn't vary with temperature.

 

 

First I have heard of this compensation. Does COBB stage 2 adjust this table? I figure they must as this table is not available in ST (unless I am not picturing the correct thing). I used COBB stage2 as starting point and I have no 3 degree dip anywhere in my timing.

[2005garnetGT]

nm, map is on my other comp

[mickeyd2005]

First I have heard of this compensation. Does COBB stage 2 adjust this table? I figure they must as this table is not available in ST (unless I am not picturing the correct thing). I used COBB stage2 as starting point and I have no 3 degree dip anywhere in my timing.

 

That's why you should learn how to use Airboy's spreadsheet. It is very obvious.

 

I've seen this dip on old Cobb Stage 2 and old Protune datalogs posted here:

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22604&highlight=datalogging+results&page=15

 

Recently, the datalogs from Protuned cars do not seem to have this dip, so I am assuming that Cobb added it to their Protuner software and tuners know how to deal with it. Your protuner may have already turned off this compensation for you or Cobb may have hacked the rom. I don't know, but I do know how to take care of it in Enginuity.

 

Here is a datalog that I borrowed from praedet dated 5/27/2006. Notice the dip at 3200 rpm. It is exactly 3 degrees. However, KC is flat. I've seen it time and time again. The problem with it is that it is unpredictable. It turns off anywhere between 3000 and 3500 rpm depending upon the rpm that the datalog was started.

[mickeyd2005]

First I have heard of this compensation. Does COBB stage 2 adjust this table? I figure they must as this table is not available in ST (unless I am not picturing the correct thing). I used COBB stage2 as starting point and I have no 3 degree dip anywhere in my timing.

 

Okay, I went through all your datalogs that you posted. You've never posted a clean 2000 to redline datalog with both total timing and KC.

 

It's time you post up.

[Legend]

Okay... getting into uncharted territory for me but it really looks pretty easy. I went and made 4 changes to my Enginuity tune:

 

1) Went into the Timing Compensation B (Intake Temp) and changed all values from 3.16 to 1.05

 

2) Changed Target Boost A.My table had 16.2's running all the way to redline at 95% throttle. I used Mickey's target boost table and now have it tapering to 10.64 at 6800. My MAF at redline is about 10 less than before, but probably safer now(?) Or can I raise those a little higher towards the 16.2 they were? My partial throttle table looks like it wasn't tuned... I populated the partial throttle part also and it feels nicer now.

 

3) Changed Max WGDC. Again, I used Mickey's. Similar story to the target boost table... more tapering in full throttle (was 90's and 80's all the way down) and again totally changed the partial throttle table.

 

4) Changed Initial Wastegate Duty. Same story as Max WGDC, used Mickey's table.

 

 

Your thoughts?? Thanks Mickey. Is it time to play with timing?

Mickey Tweaks 8-30 down.pdf

Mickey Tweaks 8-30 uphill.pdf

[mickeyd2005]

Hey, sorry if I wasn't more clear.

 

Don't use BigHonu's WGDC and boost targets. Those are for stage 1 and they are optimized for BigHonu. Your values are fine.

 

All I recommend is that you adjust your AVCS table and adjust your timing.

 

If you pull values from your Timing Compensation B, then you can add that back to your Base timing, but you can only add it where it was active to begin with. It's not straightforward.

 

For starters, use your professionally tuned map and the only thing I recommend that you change is your AVCS. Don't change your timing yet. Then check your timing because it might knock. Then the second thing you need to do is identify where the timing compensation takes hold.

[Legend]

Thanks Mickey. I'll change back to my tuned map, but in your opinion is it okay not to have any taper in boost targets/wg?

 

What about partial throttle? Your 3 tables (for honu) were more graduated... I like the looks of it.

 

Should I just leave my timing compensation table B alone (3.16 across) until I have a greater understanding of what I am doing?

[2005garnetGT]

Okay... getting into uncharted territory for me but it really looks pretty easy. I went and made 4 changes to my Enginuity tune:

 

1) Went into the Timing Compensation B (Intake Temp) and changed all values from 3.16 to 1.05

 

2) Changed Target Boost A.My table had 16.2's running all the way to redline at 95% throttle. I used Mickey's target boost table and now have it tapering to 10.64 at 6800. My MAF at redline is about 10 less than before, but probably safer now(?) Or can I raise those a little higher towards the 16.2 they were? My partial throttle table looks like it wasn't tuned... I populated the partial throttle part also and it feels nicer now.

 

3) Changed Max WGDC. Again, I used Mickey's. Similar story to the target boost table... more tapering in full throttle (was 90's and 80's all the way down) and again totally changed the partial throttle table.

 

4) Changed Initial Wastegate Duty. Same story as Max WGDC, used Mickey's table.

 

 

Your thoughts?? Thanks Mickey. Is it time to play with timing?

 

I'd recommend a taper from peak boost down to 13 psi at redline, you should be flowing more there then at either 16 or 10.6 psi.

[LittleBlueGT]

That's why you should learn how to use Airboy's spreadsheet. It is very obvious.

 

I've seen this dip on old Cobb Stage 2 and old Protune datalogs posted here:

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22604&highlight=datalogging+results&page=15

 

Recently, the datalogs from Protuned cars do not seem to have this dip, so I am assuming that Cobb added it to their Protuner software and tuners know how to deal with it. Your protuner may have already turned off this compensation for you or Cobb may have hacked the rom. I don't know, but I do know how to take care of it in Enginuity.

 

Here is a datalog that I borrowed from praedet dated 5/27/2006. Notice the dip at 3200 rpm. It is exactly 3 degrees. However, KC is flat. I've seen it time and time again. The problem with it is that it is unpredictable. It turns off anywhere between 3000 and 3500 rpm depending upon the rpm that the datalog was started.

 

I do use airboy's sheet, I have played with it for literally hours already, but find some features of hard to use, especially seeing that I can't just take a flash of my rom and cut and paste it in cause all of my values (for the most part) are on a RT map.

 

My base map is now a COBB stage2 1.16, not a pro-tune map, and I don;t see the dip. I did order ST advanced so maybe I will see the table there.

 

Here is a log (I know I still have some timing corrections to make, but the good news is my WB is arriving today!)

LBGT.pdf

[mickeyd2005]

My base map is now a COBB stage2 1.16, not a pro-tune map, and I don;t see the dip. I did order ST advanced so maybe I will see the table there.

 

Okay, I don't have a Cobb AP so I can only go by what's posted here.

 

I have seen the dip in Cobb Stg2 datalogs from last year. That's all I know.

[mickeyd2005]

Thanks Mickey. I'll change back to my tuned map, but in your opinion is it okay not to have any taper in boost targets/wg?

 

What about partial throttle? Your 3 tables (for honu) were more graduated... I like the looks of it.

 

Should I just leave my timing compensation table B alone (3.16 across) until I have a greater understanding of what I am doing?

 

For now, don't touch any of the boost or WG tables. I don't know what your tuner did or what his philosophy is. You can't change one without the other. So, just leave it.

 

You can change the comp table but you would effectively lose a little bit of power. The advantage of dropping the comp table value to 1 is that you can later add it back to your base timing. Don't do it yourself. It's actually splitting hairs so if your car is not knocking and there are no hiccups in driving, I would leave it for now.

 

You can try the more aggressive AVCS table that I posted in the end of BigHonu's tuning thread. However, be aware that the advance might require pulling some timing so watch out for that.

 

Keep in mind that the boost target is actually adjusted in the ecu for atmospheric pressure. I believe it uses the STi compensation model:

 

ATM comp

ATM, psi 7.89 8.51 9.13 9.74 10.37 10.98 11.6 12.22 12.84 13.46 14.08 14.7

Comp, % -33.9 -30.7 -27.5 -24.3 -21.0 -17.8 -14.6 -11.4 -8.1 -4.9 -1.7 0

[2005garnetGT]

 

Keep in mind that the boost target is actually a pressure ratio in the ecu. In enginuity, it is viewed as a relative pressure at sea level only for convenience. When we say 13 psi at redline, we mean PR=1.89 which would be 10.62 psi when atmospheric pressure = 12 psi.

 

 

yeah, sorry for assuming you were at sea level like I am. (210 feet above, pretty inconsequential)

[Legend]

Alright I'm back to my pro-tuned map. BTW, here are my pro-tuned tables I referenced before... I am still curious about partial throttle. These seem like they could be better(?)

 

Target Boost A

0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.10 0.10 0.19 0.97

0.77 0.77 0.97 1.93 1.84 1.93 2.32 6.19

0.77 0.77 3.48 6.19 7.73 8.12 8.31 16.20

0.77 0.77 4.06 8.89 10.83 11.60 11.80 16.20

0.77 0.77 2.32 8.12 10.25 11.60 11.99 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 5.80 8.89 10.44 11.41 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 3.29 6.96 9.09 10.25 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 2.32 5.80 8.12 9.48 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 1.35 4.64 7.15 8.89 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 0.77 3.87 6.57 8.51 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 0.77 3.67 6.19 8.12 16.20

0.77 0.77 0.77 0.77 3.29 5.80 6.57 16.20

 

MAX WGD

0.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 95.0

63.8 63.8 63.8 63.8 63.8 63.8 63.8 95.0

58.8 58.8 58.8 58.8 58.8 58.8 58.8 85.0

56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 80.0

56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 56.0 80.0

54.0 54.0 54.0 54.0 54.0 54.0 54.0 80.0

51.0 51.0 51.0 51.0 51.0 51.0 51.0 80.0

48.0 48.0 48.0 48.0 48.0 48.0 48.0 80.0

49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 85.0

40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 85.0

40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 85.0

 

Initial WGD

0.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0 90.0

56.8 56.8 56.8 56.8 56.8 56.8 56.8 90.0

51.8 51.8 51.8 51.8 51.8 51.8 51.8 80.0

49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 70.0

49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 49.0 70.0

47.0 47.0 47.0 47.0 47.0 47.0 47.0 70.0

44.0 44.0 44.0 44.0 44.0 44.0 44.0 70.0

41.0 41.0 41.0 41.0 41.0 41.0 41.0 70.0

42.0 42.0 42.0 42.0 42.0 42.0 42.0 75.0

33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 75.0

33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 75.0

[2005garnetGT]

16.2 psi target, at redline, at your altitude, is a terrible idea.

[Legend]

16.2 psi target, at redline, at your altitude, is a terrible idea.

 

That's my gut feeling too, but it never gets to 16.2 psi...

 

From the data log, it's...

 

13.9 at 3000rpm

peaks at 16.0 around 4500rpm

drops to 15.0 at 4100rpm

drops to 14.0 at 5100rpm

drops to 13.0 at 5400rpm

drops to 12.0 at 5800rpm

drops to 11.0 at 6100rpm

then stays at 10.3 until redline

 

So, despite the target being 16.2 until redline the boost is not near that high... thoughts?

[LittleBlueGT]

16.2 psi target, at redline, at your altitude, is a terrible idea.

 

Many don't do it, but I would take full advantage of the WGDC baro pressure compensation tables. I live close to sea level so it is not a big deal for me, but next time I am in the mountains I can gaurantee my wife will be driving as I log and figure out an app baro (elevation kind of) compensation that works for my turbo and config.

 

I am sure some have done this for the VF40, if not then figure out what boost works well for your altitude, then compare that with what most run at sea level and do the simple math.