Subaru, down the road...

[SUBE555]

I think about this almost daily, in many different aspects, partly because their current insistance kind of irritates me, so I want to discuss this. My key questions: -What things would you like to see Subaru do? -What do you think Subaru needs to change? -What brands, looks, hardware, and features do you most associate with where you'd like to see Subaru head?

[Xenonk]

1) Knock it off with the integrated headunit and ass-backwards ground-switch engineering 2) Keep releasing the super-cars.. I feel soo deprived of not having an S401 in the US. 3) Need more Momo and LLBean clothes/accessories.. Keefe

[Deer Killer]

1. Stop exporting kludged cars. 2. Stop exporting kludged cars. 3. Everything JDM has. I saw one accessory catalog with raintronic! eeek.. I think this addresses everything you want Keefe :)

[nendo]

1. more options ,more cars and a frickin twin turbo v6 2. they need to change there tame image, they need to be a lil bolder 3. i would like to see more models and trim levels and especially more performance orientated options and more luxury options as well

[Xenonk]

I forgot to mention: 1) STOP PUTTING POTENZA RE92s ON THE CARS! Keefe

[kanoswrx]

The one majore thing I want, is for them to get the B9 concept idea thrown out, I know their suv is going to have the ugly alfa rip off front end and its going to be one ugly suv. I am dreading the day when a Impreza or Legacy has that front end. They need to go back to their roots and update that, make it sleaker and more current. Thats all I really want, then they can pretty much keep doing what they are doing now, releasing good quality cars, that are fast and at a good price. Oh and I agree no more re-92's.

[Xenonk]

[quote name='nendo']1. more options ,more cars and a frickin twin turbo v6 2. they need to change there tame image, they need to be a lil bolder 3. i would like to see more models and trim levels and especially more performance orientated options and more luxury options as well[/QUOTE] 1. then it wouldnt be a subaru without the boxer engine 2. the STi and WRX full-blown-mud-flinging-rally image is tame? 3. that's how subaru went bankrupted in the first place by designing too many different platforms and such.. GM stepped in and simplify the lineup, the production, and the make of the car (making it more of a "lego" car like hondas with interchangable parts from one model to the next). 3a. definitely some more optional packages for performance and luxury Keefe

[crapy]

As soon as Subaru can keep its heritage, essence, and charming factor, I think it's good enough. I really love B4 because it looks mundane, but also VERY special. Every heritage from Subaru is well kept under B4's body, that most idiots have no idea what kind of car it is, and this makes it special. I also hate flashy cars. (btw, if you have watched topgear of 11/21, you will know what i am trying to say) (AND WHY THERE IS NO HOMELINK FOR A 20~30K CAR????!!!)

[gtguy]

Address the marketing issues, so that Subaru can become the kind of brand with the perception and market presence (as it is in the JDM), so that they can actually offer the same things in this market as they can in other markets. At present, it doesn't matter what anyone wishes for. The real question is will the marketplace support it. And with all of the "If the GT costs $32K I'll buy a TL" comments that people were making, apparently it doesn't. This is the biggest difficulty that Subaru needs to overcome. Without doing that, everything else is pointless. The cars will remain as they are because of the marque's marketplace presence and perception here in the USDM. Kevin

[gtguy]

[quote name='Xenonk']1. then it wouldnt be a subaru without the boxer engine 2. the STi and WRX full-blown-mud-flinging-rally image is tame? 3. that's how subaru went bankrupted in the first place by designing too many different platforms and such.. GM stepped in and simplify the lineup, the production, and the make of the car (making it more of a "lego" car like hondas with interchangable parts from one model to the next). 3a. definitely some more optional packages for performance and luxury Keefe[/QUOTE] Keefe is right. Everyone has their things that they want, without looking at the larger picture, namely is this implementable, given the marque's USDM presence? Further, without asking real people (who will buy many more cars, with less bother, than enthusiasts) these same questions, we'll never have any idea what the real world wants, and the real world is where the cars are sold. It's like newspapers finally getting around to doing market research, and finding that the stories that we thought were great, people weren't reading. Oops! Were car companies to listen to enthusiasts, much the same thing would happen. Kevin

[wunderkind]

Is JDM really better than USDM significantly? From what I read from Paul Hansen's test drive of the USDM LGT, they fair pretty similarly. - STi Legacy WR please.

[gtguy]

[quote name='wunderkind']Is JDM really better than USDM significantly? From what I read from Paul Hansen's test drive of the USDM LGT, they fair pretty similarly. - STi Legacy WR please.[/QUOTE] It's better because it's from the JDM, silly. :lol: I'm only partly kidding. Message boards suffer a "grass is greener" syndrome. It's unavoidable. The JDM cars have aluminum suspension bits where we have steel, and a larger rear sway bar. They also have equal-length headers and the twin-scroll turbo, but word is that 2.5-liter blocks are a popular upgrade in the JDM, so what does that tell you? Oh yeah, and that bumper thing... :lol: Kevin

[GTLegs]

[quote name='Xenonk']I forgot to mention: 1) STOP PUTTING POTENZA RE92s ON THE CARS! Keefe[/QUOTE]AMEN--------nuff said

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='gtguy']It's better because it's from the JDM, silly. :lol: I'm only partly kidding. Message boards suffer a "grass is greener" syndrome. It's unavoidable. [/QUOTE] Oh please. We have one thing those guys want, a 2.5 liter engine. That's it. I'd like to hear if there is anything else, because I haven't heard of it. I could easily spend $20k importing all the superior JDM parts and accessories.

[gtguy]

[quote name='Deer Killer']Oh please. We have one thing those guys want, a 2.5 liter engine. That's it. I'd like to hear if there is anything else, because I haven't heard of it. I could easily spend $20k importing all the superior JDM parts and accessories.[/QUOTE] But that is in the aftermarket. Stock for stock, there's scant difference between the JDM and USDM cars, apart from the aforementioned bits. Yes, you can customize your Legacy through Subaru in the JDM, which speaks to my marketing and marketplace perception post. The USDM wouldn't support that kind of an operation, because the Legacy is a very different car in this market than it is in the JDM. Every argument that claims Subaru is somehow short-changing the USDM, fails to realize this very important fact. "Inexpensive and built to stay that way" is very different from the aspirational sort of car that Subaru is in the JDM. Kevin

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='gtguy']Every argument that claims Subaru is somehow short-changing the USDM, fails to realize this very important fact. "Inexpensive and built to stay that way" is very different from the aspirational sort of car that Subaru is in the JDM. Kevin[/QUOTE] So they are or they aren't? First you say they [b]aren't[/b] but then make a justifcation because they [b]are[/b] shortchanging us. Market concerns are one thing, the product we actually receive is what we are discussing here.

[gtguy]

[quote name='Deer Killer']So they are or they aren't? First you say they [b]aren't[/b] but then make a justifcation because they [b]are[/b] shortchanging us. Market concerns are one thing, the product we actually receive is what we are discussing here.[/QUOTE] [i]Sigh[/i] Okay, I'll spell it out. Subaru had a marketing campaign for this country, based on the slogan "Inexpensive, and built to stay that way." Given their aspirations at becoming a premium marque, they have much to do to live down that motto, one that still resonates in the heads of many members of the car-buying public. This, of course, along with the Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-noshing image of the typical Subaru owner. Even if it isn't true, the perception lingers. Now, that's in the USDM. In the JDM, something to which those who are familiar with that market can attest, Subaru has a very different marketplace profile. It is considered in the same breath as cars which people in the USDM would [i]never[/i] consider a Subaru even remotely the same as, not because it isn't, but because of the marketplace perception of the car, even among marque devotees such as the types who people message boards. Because of the different, aspirational perception of the car [b]in the JDM[/b], Subaru is allowed to do and offer very different things. Couple marketplace reality with different road surfaces and conditions, and you get a different car in the USDM, where about four people would spec their car out through the Subaru Studio. The rest would say "That stuff is too expensive. You can get cheaper stuff aftermarket." And that option would die on the vine. There are two very different marketplace perceptions of Subaru, dependent upon whether you are in the USDM, or JDM. This affects what we get, options-wise, and what we get as a factor of total car cost. So, bits such as the HIDs and aluminum arms come off the car, because for 99.99% of drivers, including most people on this board who think they would, performance isn't affected an iota. And the car comes to market for a great price, and people buy it. Because if an HID, aluminum suspension bit, etc, etc-equipped Legacy came to the USDM, people would say "Hmph. I can get a BMW for that. Is Subaru crazy?" That's just marketplace reality. But, by ignoring that marketplace reality, people don't understand why our cars come the way they do, and they carp about how we're getting "screwed," when in reality, we aren't. The two cars have minor differences, stock for stock, that would, as has been stated by Paul Hansen, who got to drive a USDM GT, cancel each other out. We aren't getting "shortchanged," in other words, for two reasons: 1. The cars perform the same, functionally, GT to GT. 2. The JDM fundamentally doesn't exist to the USDM, except as a semantic exercise. So to compare what the JDM gets and what the USDM gets, in light of marketplace reality, is absurd. Hence my initial contention that Subaru has to do marketing homework before they can become what they seem to desire to become, which is something dramatically different from what message board types think the company wants to become, IMHO. I trust I have clarified things sufficiently. Kevin

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='gtguy'][i]Sigh[/i] Okay, I'll spell it out. Subaru had a marketing campaign for this country, based on the slogan "Inexpensive, and built to stay that way." Given their aspirations at becoming a premium marque, they have much to do to live down that motto, one that still resonates in the heads of many members of the car-buying public. This, of course, along with the Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-noshing image of the typical Subaru owner. Even if it isn't true, the perception lingers. [/QUOTE] No it's not clear. It's not ridiculous to compare JDM vs USDM in terms of what's available on the car. (also not to say anything bad about Paul Hansen, but all we have is a butt-dyno report, on paper the JDM car wins everytime). All the development and economies of scale have already been taken care of. All they need to do is ship it. As far as a process and business plan it's already pretty much worked out, some exec just needs to check a few boxes. Subaru is currently aiming for corolla/civic dx level packaging. Let's get real here, you can get a honda accord with navigation. You can get a maxima was hid's and navigation. These are one step below entry level luxury cars. If subaru is serious about trying to attract more upscale customers it's gotta offer the things those people want FIRST. Sure a potential customer could say "I could get a BMW for this price" but AT LEAST he's saying that, instead of "subaru?? smeh..... doesn't even have HID's" - and I've had this conversation a few years ago with a potential WRX buyer who instead bought an S4. Sure the WRX was seriously considered, but it just didn't have the things that people with money want to buy. Current owners [b]are[/b] getting screwed, because if we want things like factory HID's, it now costs probably close to $2000 to get the full leveling HID housing/ballasts/level switch/etc instead of the $500 or so subaru could offer it as stock [b]legal[/b] equipment. Nevermind folding mirrors and all that other junk. The bottom line is subaru is going to keep their current consumer base with their strategy. You can't sell something you don't have. What if they brought the JDM legacy to the US? What if it layed the smack down in every comparison they did? vs TSX, hands down... vs G35, hands down... You don't think that would alter perception? You don't think that would sell cars? This wouldn't make the first set of brain dead execs I've seen. Subaru doesn't need any apologetics. It's a corporation, you're not going to hurt it's feelings with criticism. oh, and [url="http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4665"]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4665[/url]

[gtguy]

[quote name='Deer Killer']No it's not clear. It's not ridiculous to compare JDM vs USDM in terms of what's available on the car. (also not to say anything bad about Paul Hansen, but all we have is a butt-dyno report, on paper the JDM car wins everytime). All the development and economies of scale have already been taken care of. All they need to do is ship it. As far as a process and business plan it's already pretty much worked out, some exec just needs to check a few boxes. Subaru is currently aiming for corolla/civic dx level packaging. Let's get real here, you can get a honda accord with navigation. You can get a maxima was hid's and navigation. These are one step below entry level luxury cars. If subaru is serious about trying to attract more upscale customers it's gotta offer the things those people want FIRST. Sure a potential customer could say "I could get a BMW for this price" but AT LEAST he's saying that, instead of "subaru?? smeh..... doesn't even have HID's" - and I've had this conversation a few years ago with a potential WRX buyer who instead bought an S4. Sure the WRX was seriously considered, but it just didn't have the things that people with money want to buy. Current owners [b]are[/b] getting screwed, because if we want things like factory HID's, it now costs probably close to $2000 to get the full leveling HID housing/ballasts/level switch/etc instead of the $500 or so subaru could offer it as stock [b]legal[/b] equipment. Nevermind folding mirrors and all that other junk. The bottom line is subaru is going to keep their current consumer base with their strategy. You can't sell something you don't have. What if they brought the JDM legacy to the US? What if it layed the smack down in every comparison they did? vs TSX, hands down... vs G35, hands down... You don't think that would alter perception? You don't think that would sell cars? This wouldn't make the first set of brain dead execs I've seen. Subaru doesn't need any apologetics. It's a corporation, you're not going to hurt it's feelings with criticism. oh, and [url="http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4665"]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4665[/url][/QUOTE] But in the USDM, Subaru can't compete with Audi, because Audi is considered a luxury marque, and Subaru isn't. If a Legacy GT cost the same price as an A4Q, and had HIDs and navigation, nobody would buy it. Many people on this board who presently own them wouldn't have bought one. It would have been a $31-$32K Subaru, and howls would have been long and loud. If Subaru just moves the steering wheel and brings the JDM model over here, how many real people would have driven that car and asked, "Why does it ride so hard?" The USDM isn't the JDM, and no amount of wishing will make it so. It isn't "apologizing" for a company to look at marketplace reality, something that I wish more people would do, before screaming about items that the GT doesn't have. For that matter, I even wonder why some people buy a car they're so dissatisfied with. That seems crazy to me. Kevin

[rao]

I don't know of any real comparisons between a USDM Legacy and a JDM Legacy, so I don't know how anyone can know that the JDM is "better". (BTW this is shades of when it was realized that, horror of horrors, the US market Audi S4 shipped wiith *steel* suspenison components in stead of the aluminium ones on the German market cars- can you imagine? In reality it didn't matter and except for a handful of enthusiasts nobody cared) What I do know is that the Legacy is selling for $1,000 UNDER invoice only a few months after it arrived and if the market cannot support the MSRP of the car the way it is, how can anyone expect people to pay MORE for the car with a few trinkets included? If the TSX or a G35 or whatever is better or more fully equiped, then buy one :lol: Don't get me started on WRX's selling for $2,000 UNDER invoice. When that crossover monstrosity fails to sell at $35k Subaru will be lucky to even exist in the US (and the reason it won't sell is that they are competing with "regular" car companies like Honda, Toyota and Ford and they should have learned from the last time they tried and almost went under in the early 90's, except last time it was FWD economy cars and this time it is "near-luxury" AWD truckettes). I think Subaru would be spending most of its time figuring out where the market for the Outback disappeared to and how to find it again instead of correcting the slight of non-aluminum suspension parts and lact of HIDs and navigation in the Legacy ;)

[IwannaSportSedan]

I guess I don't see a Subaru "SUV" falling as flat as rao does. The Porsche Cayenne sells. Not stellarly, but it did bolster Porsche's bottom line. The same will likely happen for Subaru, especially when US wage growth catches up to recent and ongoing employment growth. (as hiring candidates at current low wages get scarce, wages will increase) There are a lot of outback owners, past and present. How many previous outback people moved to a Toyota, or a Honda Pilot, or *horror of horrors* a Ford Explorer, or Suburban, for more space or more seats than an Outback wagon has. Or more towing capacity. There are all sorts of reasons. I guess I didn't realize that the Outback's market had evaporated. Ford saw enough interest to rip it off with their new Freestyle. Dodge made a WAGON out of the Magnum, and it is rumored to get AWD soon. (the previous one was a big coupe, in the 70's) Maybe the Outback's marketshare has gone over to unit-body SUVs like the Pilot, and Subaru is just following them there. As for Kevin's wet-blanketedness... moderators/god forbid people discuss something in a theoretical sense. In this global economy, US buyers can find out what options are offered in other markets compared to their own. Comparing Legacy to Legacy cannot be anything other than apples-to-apples. Perhaps nothing will come of it, but why stifle the discussion? I am a firm believer in the options list. No one here has said that the Legacy in the US should be equipped with all the JDM [b]options[/b] as standard. So OK, you, and others, and likely even me, would not spend the cash to get a completely kitted Legacy GT if all the JDM options were available here, because it might be slightly too expensive. That isn't a good reason to not have the options available to pick and choose from. Perhaps FHI has other good reasons, but "because Kevin, or SOA says so" isn't going to satisfy everyone. Kevin often comments about being a different sort of buyer than other Legacy buyers, especially than those intending to modify their cars. Just goes to show that not everyone looks to the same things for the same reasons. Some people want the options that Subaru ALREADY HAS available elsewhere. It would not be business suicide, and could actually be beneficial to offer those options in other markets, such as the USDM. If someone doesn't want those options, or to pay those costs, then don't opt for it. that is why they are options! Anyone who has taken Economics 102 knows that offering more product diversity with little increase in fixed cost (manufacturing, materials, labor) tends to make more of a margin with increased sales, and faster amortization of some of the fixed costs. (labor doesn't amortize.) That is why a Subaru Legacy/Outback tag team makes more money than the Legacy or Outback alone, or if they were separately developed platforms. It sells more units of the same basic product. Someone says: "If the Legacy had the options, but cost 32k, I'd buy a TL." What about the other people who are not on this board and not Subie "activists/enthusiasts", who are currently saying: "The Legacy is a good price, but I want the options, so I am going to buy the TSX for nearly the same money." Offering the options may actually solidify some sales, and perhaps reclaim some from other makes, such as Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Mazda, Toyota/Lexus, or even Ford/Mercury or Pontiac. My big question, is this: Does someone know what the price range (yen converted to US Dollar) is for a standard 2.0 GT <-> Spec. B with all the accessories? Maybe a nicely kitted Legacy would not be so expensive, if offered here.

[wunderkind]

Subaru should sell all their cars for a buck! No wait, with another dollar I can buy a Hot Wheels. Fack that!

[IwannaSportSedan]

BACK ON TOPIC What I would like to see Subaru do? Better be sitting down. 1: Abort the proposed new corporate face. It is ugly, sorry to say. Try again. 1b: nip the crazy naming scheme in the bud now. B9X is not a name, and not even a catchy acronym. Give the thing a name, even if it is a bad one, like "Tribeca." Other markets like little nomenclature tricks with alphanumeric designations, but a good name is always easier to market to people in this country. 2: Twin Turbo H6, Preferably in the Legacy, as well as the B9X, or whatever.(which is what I think a previous poster meant, rather than V6) 3: Solidify their affordable comfort, quality, and performance image (near lux or affordable power) by offering more creature comfort and technical options. 4: New *more stylish* Coupe/Sedan/Wagon Impreza (with a new, more confidently agressive name, preferably) line, like the old days. I can't imagine a hot-looking resurrection of the 2.5RS Coupe with the Legacy GT's current engine being a poor seller. 4b: Of course the Impreza-based Forester would become a junior version of the larger B9X, but based on new impreza's chassis. Could be a nuevo-design wrangler/liberty AWD competitor, with adjustable ride height. Kinda like the Isuzu VehiCross done correctly. The Outback Sport could become more of the do-it-all swiss-army-knife small car that the Forester is now. 5: Perhaps a Convertible on the aforementioned Impreza coupe's bodyplan, or a 2 door 4 seat convertible based on the Legacy Sedan's hardpoints. (like A4 Cabrio) Or both, if the market will take it. Probably just one or the other. 6: Can the Baja. if subaru needs something with a tiny cargo bed, make a sliding roof/midgate version of the B9X, like the GMC Envoy XUV. 7: Offer two high profile model lines for all Subaru Products: L.L.Bean for adventure models in all body styles, such as Outback (wagon and Sedan), Forester, Outback Sport, and B9X SUV. Better offroad equipment and creature comforts. STi for Performance oriented models, with real high-output versions of the Subaru platforms. WRX STi (coupe sedan and wagon, see #4) Legacy STi Sedan and Wagon (and convertible, if offered, see #5) and perhaps a Performance-Ute version of the Forester replacement, or B9X, as a junior version of the Porsche Cayenne. (I'd not buy one, but lots of other people might, considering that trucks currently outsell cars in the US.) 7: Purpose built "Halo" car. Group N Rally car. (I think it is group N that is mid-engined prototype, I am not sure) Mid engined, best helical AWD and SLA control-arm active-damping suspension. Like a Lancia Stratos Stradale, or Ford Cosworth RS2000, but up-to-date, and AWD. Of course a couple thousand of them homologated to the street for a few of us to enjoy. The RS2000 was stylistically related to the Euro ford Escort and Escort Cosworth of the time, but had a completely different layout. Such familiy resemblance could be made between a future front engined AWD WRX STi and this proposed mid/rear-engined monster. Just some hints that say that both cars are familial, and both belong on the Subaru World Rally Team.

[gtguy]

[quote name='IwannaSportSedan']I guess I don't see a Subaru "SUV" falling as flat as rao does. The Porsche Cayenne sells. Not stellarly, but it did bolster Porsche's bottom line. The same will likely happen for Subaru, especially when US wage growth catches up to recent and ongoing employment growth. (as hiring candidates at current low wages get scarce, wages will increase) As for Kevin's wet-blanketedness... moderators/god forbid people discuss something in a theoretical sense. In this global economy, US buyers can find out what options are offered in other markets compared to their own. Comparing Legacy to Legacy cannot be anything other than apples-to-apples. Perhaps nothing will come of it, but why stifle the discussion? I am a firm believer in the options list. No one here has said that the Legacy in the US should be equipped with all the JDM [b]options[/b] as standard. So OK, you, and others, and likely even me, would not spend the cash to get a completely kitted Legacy GT if all the JDM options were available here, because it might be slightly too expensive. That isn't a good reason to not have the options available to pick and choose from. Perhaps FHI has other good reasons, but "because Kevin, or SOA says so" isn't going to satisfy everyone. Kevin often comments about being a different sort of buyer than other Legacy buyers, especially than those intending to modify their cars. Just goes to show that not everyone looks to the same things for the same reasons. Some people want the options that Subaru ALREADY HAS available elsewhere. It would not be business suicide, and could actually be beneficial to offer those options in other markets, such as the USDM. If someone doesn't want those options, or to pay those costs, then don't opt for it. that is why they are options! Anyone who has taken Economics 102 knows that offering more product diversity with little increase in fixed cost (manufacturing, materials, labor) tends to make more of a margin with increased sales, and faster amortization of some of the fixed costs. (labor doesn't amortize.) That is why a Subaru Legacy/Outback tag team makes more money than the Legacy or Outback alone, or if they were separately developed platforms. It sells more units of the same basic product. Someone says: "If the Legacy had the options, but cost 32k, I'd buy a TL." What about the other people who are not on this board and not Subie "activists/enthusiasts", who are currently saying: "The Legacy is a good price, but I want the options, so I am going to buy the TSX for nearly the same money." Offering the options may actually solidify some sales, and perhaps reclaim some from other makes, such as Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Mazda, Toyota/Lexus, or even Ford/Mercury or Pontiac. My big question, is this: Does someone know what the price range (yen converted to US Dollar) is for a standard 2.0 GT <-> Spec. B with all the accessories? Maybe a nicely kitted Legacy would not be so expensive, if offered here.[/QUOTE] The Porsche Cayenne sells because it is prestigious to have a Porsche, particularly a Porsche SUV. Those things are like Accords in my neck of the woods. And regarding my wet-blanketness, as you put it, I don't stifle or hinder in any way any discussions about anything. I take the most extreme umbrage at such characterizations. That is the very point of spaces such as these. I was the one who got jumped on for suggesting that Subaru had some marketing homework to do, before the Legacy would support the same options, etc that it had in the JDM, but that stock for stock, the USDM and JDM weren't all that different, performance-wise. Don't call someone a "wet blanket" because they don't toe the general board line that we're getting hosed because we aren't getting the same car that the JDM is getting, and don't accuse them of "stifling" anything for having the temerity to add a bit of real-world rationality to a discussion. Even [b]offering[/b] options costs a carmaker money, because they have to stock those options. This is my point. Does anyone want to speculate about what kind of bath Subaru took on the option BBS wheels for the WRX? The boards buzzed with "What? They're crazy. I can get forged BBS 17s for $150." Then real-world pricing smacked people upside the head. :lol: There isn't any way for an automaker to offer options a la carte, without providing for the possibility that someone might order said option. If there were a $1200 HID option, how many people do you think would have signed up for it, versus those saying "I can get an H7 HID kit on Ebay for $300. Subaru is crazy." People have done the yen to dollar conversion, at a buttress to their arguments that cost isn't an impediment to Subaru bringing over a Spec B. But it's a lot more complicated than a simple yen to dollar extrapolation. I know that, and I didn't even take Economics 102. What about labor costs, and exchange rates, and different union rules that affect costs of a final product, etc, etc. It gets tiresome being treated like a jerk on this board because I dare to say that these cars are fine as they are, and other things. If someone has a divergent opinion it doesn't make them wrong, a wet blanket, or any of the other derisive names that have been flung my way. It just means they see things differently, and last time I checked, the only car that I control is my own. Kevin

[BoxerGT2.5]

Ah....remember when you were the shit back in the day if you got tuck and roll leather seats. Maybe powered windshield wipers or AC. :) Personally, I don't car about Navigation cause if you get in your damn car and don't know where your going....stay home. Rather than subaru having a butt load of options for the car as "dealer options", such as the "Grand Touring Package" or the "GT package" why not take a page from the books of Mazdaspeed and Nismo and offer more after the fact parts in the STI class. That way those of us who don't want verbatim directions to aunt alice's on a LCD screen don't have to pay for it if we don't want it.