Tail happy handling?

[il collaudatore]

I was reading the Consumer Reports magazine that rates all the cars and under the Subaru Legacy, they praised it with the exception of the fuel economy (no surprise there) and the tendency for the rear to swing out at the limit suddenly. What is driving at the limit with the Legacy? A bit of spirited fun on a on ramp? Or do you really have to be pushing it to get the tail out? I'm guessing this handling quirk is magnified in poor weather, right? How many of you have gotten the rear to swing out?

[axis008]

Well, they had the automatic version of the Legacy. If you recall, the power distribution is split 45/55 during normal use, so it will act more like a RWD than the manual version which is split 50/50. That one reason I can think of. I'm sure there are other factors involved...

[RobY]

Handling is fine... CR isnt used to driving cars that dont have an asinine amount of understeer. Stay on the throttle through your turns. Dont mid turn brake. Mid turn braking and abrupt throttle lift are the best ways to spin a performance car. Unfortunately the magazine is geared towards inexperienced drivers that do exactly that when they panic.

[Xenonk]

I swing my car plenty of times in stock and modified form.. it's best when you just have sticky tires.. I think that's the car's most fun when it just have tires.. then you can go in hot in every turn and just let off the gas.. the car does sooo well in putting the torque to the rear.. only problem is that the tires grip so well, that you end up snapping back into place since the recovering of the torque is harder to do (silly turbos, they can't do everything :p ) Keefe

[c_hunter]

It's not necessarily at "the limit". If you are cornering hard and then suddenly lift off the gas, you will likely kick the tail out then too. This is typical AWD behavior, nothing unique to Subaru. CR prefers the benign handling you get with FWD cars -- understeer -- because it tends to keep inexperienced drivers out of trouble (car just starts plowing when the going gets rough). However, a skilled driver, or even one who is aware of the characteristics of AWD, will be just as safe in an AWD car. CRaig

[Paul G.]

If you know what you're doing, the ability to swing the tail out a bit, then nail the throttle is the way to take a turn. If you don't, you're better off backing it down anyway. I would never consider an understeering FWD car as being a "performance" vehicle. P.

[apexjapan]

If the tail got happy on the people of CR, than they had gone past the handling limits. So it is not that it is tail-happy at the limit, it is actually that they didn't know where the limit was at. And that is a character of AWD that is not touched upon much. AWD flatters a bad driver tremendously, allowing for ordinary people to get much closer to the limit of handling than they could in a FWD or AWD layout. That sounds good, initially, but it is a situation that lends itself to abuse in the hands of non-professional drivers. Witness the variety of crashes when the WRX turbo arrived. Most were because of the false sense of security that has people thinking they are driving at 7/10's when they are actually around 8 or 9/10's. And untrained drivers at 8 or 9/10's can easily drift into the 11/10's or 12/10's within a split second. Like the drivers at CR, it sounds like. I drove the USDM Legacy GT finally. It understeers, it rolls, it's a little loose at the limits. But there was never a time that it felt out of control, even when I purposely tried to overstep the limits. So I just chalk up CR's report as something from somebody that is a relatively casual driver. Which may be quite in tune with their intention, since they are in no way a organization that considers enthusiast drivers their core audience. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[gtguy]

People always lambast Consumer Reports as if they were these yokels who don't know the first thing about driving a car. I'd bet they're better drivers than most Americans, even most of the people on this board. Further, their evaluative tests are comprehensive, covering every parameter that real people use, and yes, they do simulate emergency maneuvers, such as the type you'd have to engage in to save your butt from having an accident. And at those times, as the article said, the Legacy's back end can step out, particularly with the stock tires. This is all true. Don't shoot the messenger because he brings news people don't like to hear. When the back end comes out for some McRae wannabe, it's "cool." When CR comments on the same tendency, it's "Those guys don't know how to drive." Note that CR noticed the same tendency in the Outback that they tested, even as they recommended the car. Kevin

[Ken S]

Good point. CR looks at cars from how the general population shops and drives. And if an AWD-inexperienced driver were in a Legacy at the limit, they would probably induce lift-throttle oversteer. Given the increasing number of cars that have ESP, more people are probably going to expect any car of any drivetrain configuration to do okay if you cut power mid-apex. CR's observations are valid and I personally hope it jumps starts Subaru putting a VDC like system in more of their vehicles. Ken

[il collaudatore]

What about in snow and rain? Will the tail have a tendency to snap out more? So then nobody has ever swung out the tail unintentionally?

[gtguy]

[quote name='il collaudatore']What about in snow and rain? Will the tail have a tendency to snap out more? So then nobody has ever swung out the tail unintentionally?[/QUOTE] As Paul observed, the limits of the car are very, very high. The beauty of AWD is that it can make the average driver look like a hero. The down side of AWD with good tires (what? There is one?) is that when you reach the limit then step over it, you're probably pretty far gone, and dependent upon a driver's skill set, possibly [b]too[/b] far gone. The thing about the RE92s, love or hate them, is that they begin to slide long before you reach the point of no return. Now, these tires set a limit that is, for many drivers, artificially low. But better that than the alternative. "My, don't my machine and I work well...d-oh!" :lol: The Subaru AWD system is also weight transfer sensitive. I remember once, heading into a corner with my WRX and unweighting the front end in a rainy corner. The wheels that slip to wheels that grip did its thing and, when I got back on the throttle, I had effectively a rear-wheel-drive car. :lol: Well, once I unpuckered and countersteered, all was fine, but it was a lesson learned. The unfortunate thing about lift-throttle oversteer as a handling artifact is that people, weaned on front-wheel-drive, where unless the car is aggressively tuned, suspension-wise, lifting when the car's in trouble is a good thing. Then they hop into a more aggressively-tuned from the factory AWD car, and bingo, bango, lift-throttle oversteer. As Ken observed, CR does report on cars from the perspective of the everyday, non-enthusiast driver. For those people, the tail coming out on the GT and OB is worthy of note. Hell, it's worthy of note for anybody. Kevin

[c_hunter]

Paul makes a great point -- my WRX would allow me to drive up near the limit all day long. AWD gives a wonderful sense of neutrality in handling, and you can use the throttle to make minor corrections to steering all while cornering at 9/10 -- which would be 11/10 on a FWD or RWD car. The problem is when you exceed that 9/10 level you're going to get in trouble, because 9/10 on a good handling AWD vehicle is a lot higher than most people are used to. I think false sense of security is a great way to describe it. I have been able to get the tail out on several Subarus in the snow, but I was goofing around on purpose. When I am trying to get from point A to point B in bad weather, the cars have been bulletproof. I can think of 4-5 times in the last couple years where I have been driving in some hairy weather (ranging from floods and mud in spring and snow/ice in winter) and I felt like Subaru AWD carried the day. If you drive sensibly and have a feel for the car, it will pull you through the worst conditions like a champ. I have never had any unintentional tail snaps on any Subaru, ranging from a WRX that was routinely driven near the limit on dry back country roads, to Foresters and Outbacks that were commuter cars by day and sport utility cars on weekends (skiing, mountain biking, kayaking, etc...). CRaig

[agctr]

To be honest, I have driven my Liberty/Legacy to what I would consider the limit, well above some ppl's and have to admit the only time that the tail will step out is when yr really got the thing by the horns and you are cranking along, you come into a corner and really throw it around but ONLY IN THE WET. In the dry I have to admit, the Liberty will squat and follow the fronts, the fronts do wash out more than the rears regardless if dry and wet but have found the rear will only step out in the WET. You have to find what the limit is. AWD has a massive threashold, but step on that line and watch out. Adam.

[Xenonk]

Gimme a crack at your Liberty and I'll make sure the rear will step out ;) Keefe

[agctr]

Yeah Yeah Yeah Keefe, wind on opp lock and u can make anything step out. Please check yr letterbox at home, posting the airline tickets tonight LOL..... Adam.

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='Xenonk']Gimme a crack at your Liberty and I'll make sure the rear will step out ;) Keefe[/QUOTE] And that he will...I was in the back seat of his car today at a Auto-X.. Talk about an experience... I didn't know a AWD car could drift..:eek:

[Xenonk]

haha, and here I thought that I was going to ask B4_Maniac to PM Agctr his experience from the best view in the house for the GT in an autox run today. I guess you beat me to it! Keefe

[agctr]

Ahhh good to hear that your spreadn the LOVE Keefe, good work....... Adam.

[B4_Maniac]

It was much fun! That I can tell you. Even on his "Fun Run" he managed a very respectable time.

[rottenspam]

No, I definatly think the rear snapping around is of note on the Legacy GT..... The REX dosen't handle like the legacy, or for that matter the legacy handles more like a rear driver.... I had an 02 WRX, and it was easy to set it up on a 4 wheel drift, did it all the time on dry as well as wet pavment. The REX's tendancy is to have all 4 wheels drift when pushing it hard in a corner, lifting the throttle mid corner during a 4 wheel drift and the car would plow but never snap around like the legacy GT's can. I've gotten the 05 legacy GT to snap its rear end around several times. It does not handle like the WRX. Its different, now some people like the rear end coming around however its not something I'm used. It surprised me the first time I pushed it and let off the throttle like I did in my rex, instead of just drifting less the rear end kicks out. The legacy is harder to get set up in a 4 drift then the WRX. You have to snap its steering a little mid corner to get the front to plow, then ease out the wheel and the car will drift. But let off the throttle if and your screwed the car just isn't as blanced as the REX..... The rex for the average driver "me" is easier to drive and control in drifts then the legacy. I'm simply not used to it, but I've had the rear end break loose several times always with a throttle lift mid corner, its disconcerting.

[Xenonk]

[quote name='rottenspam']No, I definatly think the rear snapping around is of note on the Legacy GT..... The REX dosen't handle like the legacy, or for that matter the legacy handles more like a rear driver.... The legacy is harder to get set up in a 4 drift then the WRX. I'm simply not used to it, but I've had the rear end break loose several times always with a throttle lift mid corner, its disconcerting.[/QUOTE] The WRX and the GT are different (due to the longer wheelbase IMO, which is a real big contribution to the handling). I do beg to differ about it being harder to control the GT than the WRX. I managed to repeat the same thing from the WRX and the GT using the same Scandavian Flick for both cars and the car just comes around, both in stock forms and modified forms. However, the GT is a lot easier to balance the car while in a drift to keep it going more so than the WRX (longer wheelbase will give you more time to recover). It's really easy to make both cars understeer: all you gotta do is just keep the gas floored while during the turn-in.. just dont let up the throttle.. and turn the steering wheel as if your life depended on it. Trust me, the car will keep going straight. Like most AWD systems (and the STi DCCD is not an exception), to make use of the rear wheels, you have to carry the car with higher speed (higher torque range) and go in the turn HOT (fast).. with good practice of LIFT-THROTTLE-STEERING, you will pitch the car forward based on engine braking and the front end will have more grip than the rear.. turn in the wheel and bingo, the AWD will sense the overload from the front wheels and send the torque to the rear and thus, the car will start to rotate.. balance the car with throttle and steering (they work inversely of each other... i.e. More steering, less throttle, OR more Throttle, straighten or countersteer to the direction of travel). Frankly, I am a fan of neutral steering setups of a car. MOST CARS that you would buy from the factory ARE setup for understeering.. the general public dont have that kind of experience to deal with keeping oversteering under control. Even the New BMW M3s are rated as mild understeer eventhough the car is a RWD. My final note: GT is just as easy to drive [as the WRX] but the GT's rear end does come out easier than the WRX when the car is upset. Plus you have about 400 lbs more weight; 50 whp more to deal with; and 50 lbs.ft of torque to adjust to when driving the GT over the WRX. Keefe

[B4_Maniac]

Just to add a missed point. The rear suspension set ups of the LGT and the WRX are completely diffrent. The rear multilink with the anti-squat, anti-lift qeometry will give it diffrent handeling charesteristics along with the longer wheel base. I would say like a rear wheel drive car in certain aspects.

[D-2.5-GT]

it popped out on me unexpectedly, but the roads were wet early one morning, and i was on the gas all the way from a stop. Had the whole back end come around, threw it in second and it basically came right back around. It certainly surprised me when it happened, as it was the first time, but the weather was clearly affecting it. I haven't had it happen in dry weather though. As far as the winter time, there is no doubt you will be able to bring the back around, but its nothing to worry about, just take note of it, and drive according to the weather, every car has its limits at some point.

[Bob N]

[quote name='il collaudatore']What about in snow and rain? Will the tail have a tendency to snap out more? So then nobody has ever swung out the tail unintentionally?[/QUOTE] Yes, I did. I was leaving a gas station and had to turn left and cut across traffic (4 lanes with a middle lane for turning left/right). Well, I stomped on it and I hit redline and the back started to spin out on me. It was raining outside (light to moderate) so that came in to play. Of course hitting redline coming into traffic at an angle didn't help. I shifted and ease off the throttle and it was fine. You can spin the tail out but it wasn't like I was out of control. I'm sure poeple around me were a little scared (he he).

[Xenonk]

After you learn the first time from an unintentional mistake, (at least I hope it only takes a typical person about 1 or 2 times) you wont want to drive the car that hard (the human mind will learn about preserverance and start taking some mental notes of NOT to do such things). One thing to make note of is: Do Not Upset The Car. All Inputs Must Be Easy-On and Easy-Off. This Goes For Everything From Throttle, Braking, and Steering Input [Clutch & Shifting]. Being A Smooth Driver Will Keep The Tail End (as well as your own rear end) Out Of Trouble. Keefe