suspension stage 1 upgrades?

[Xenonk]

[quote name='rclark0032'][font=Times New Roman]So if the Strut bar is not the first upgrade what it? I know this depends on the driver, where he drives and what he wants from the car…but im thinking sway bars? [/font] [font=Times New Roman]My situation- I do a lot of 50mph stop and go on local streets and a fair amount on the highway at 80mph. I want to have the ability to drive this everyday without killing my back. I also want to get rid of the boat feeling (bouncing/ floating up and down after crossing a bridge or other uneven pavement) on the highway. [/font] QUOTE] A good first upgrade would be tires in my opinion.. if that is too steep of a mod for your piggy bank, you can always get the car realigned for more aggressive driving (a little bit of negative camber and a little bit of toe-out, it SHOULDNT increase the tire wear THAT much, just rotate the tires every 3,000 miles when you do an oil change). Pumping up your tires more than factory spec (say 38 psi front, 36 rear) can make the car a little bit more responsive. The idea to modding is to achieve the performance to your liking, not the sake of just having the parts. That's the one thing that aggravates me when people put in about 200 lbs worth of in-car-entertainment system but wishes to run low 10s in the quarter mile or be able to make their tires last longer than 10k miles through the twisties.. it doesnt work that way. Find your goal for the car, and the "staging" of mods can be broken down to something that your wallet, your driving skill, and driving experience will to go and handle. No sense in building a dedicated track car if it's never going to be raced, let alone be on the the track.. no sense on putting 800whp when the car is only running on stock drive axles. So to sum it up, there is no "correct first mod" because everyone has a different taste of how they want their car to drive (even though it's the same stock car we are all customed to). If you want a tighten up feeling, start with some adjustments on the car such as tire pressures and an alignment.. if that doesnt satisfy you, find out what you are trying to eliminate out of the car.. there are plenty of us on this forum that can point you in the right direction. Keefe

[FTSELGP]

[quote name='gtguy']Have you had a gander at the STi pink spring threads? It looks as if people are finding solutions based on a simple spring application, which is interesting, though not surprising, given that the product in question comes from STi. I think that there's a lot of unknown with this car, still. For example, I'd love to know the stock spring rates, aside from "soft." :lol: The other question is what someone wants from a car. Having been down the coilover road, I don't know that I would ever do it again. Finding a coilover with OE quality (as in "set and forget), fit, NVH and ride quality, is difficult. As some parameters change, others might become less desirable. I'm pretty impressed with the stock GT suspension, given the necessary compromises attendant to a stock car. Kevin[/QUOTE] No I have not looked into those "spring" threads. We generally stay away from spring-only upgrades, unless a given customer's needs preclude anything else. Springs rarely offer a satisfactory solution IMO, and we are not about pushing parts around. On the other hand, coilovers - and not just any but high-quality - are our speciality amongst other things. I cannot tell what kind of experience you had with them, but bundling all of them into the "coilovers" bucket probably is not the best approach. I can tell you with strong confidence that most cars, but especially Subaru's and especially the LGT; would benefit from a set of properly designed coilovers more than any other upgrade. However, I know too well, how most vendors push out a product and paint a rosy pricture of "coilovers" without any way to back it up their claim after sales or any engineering work put into them. So, I understand your concern. Also, I agree coilovers are not for everyone. Most Legacy owners won't drive the car agressively enough to benefit from them; and generally springs will get them enough of a look at low cost to satify their needs.

[gtguy]

[quote name='FT@SELGP']No I have not looked into those "spring" threads. We generally stay away from spring-only upgrades, unless a given customer's needs preclude anything else. Springs rarely offer a satisfactory solution IMO, and we are not about pushing parts around. On the other hand, coilovers - and not just any but high-quality - are our speciality amongst other things. I cannot tell what kind of experience you had with them, but bundling all of them into the "coilovers" bucket probably is not the best approach. I can tell you with strong confidence that most cars, but especially Subaru's and especially the LGT; would benefit from a set of properly designed coilovers more than any other upgrade. However, I know too well, how most vendors push out a product and paint a rosy pricture of "coilovers" without any way to back it up their claim after sales or any engineering work put into them. So, I understand your concern. Also, I agree coilovers are not for everyone. Most Legacy owners won't drive the car agressively enough to benefit from them; and generally springs will get them enough of a look at low cost to satify their needs.[/QUOTE] I agree with your final statement, though I think (hope) that the folks at STi are, with their spring set, after more than a look. People are having very good experiences with them, so far. My coilover experiences were positive, with both the Tein and DMS systems. The Tein spring rate proved to be a big aggressive for beat-up Chicago area streets, and I never, even in rallycrosses, drove the car hard enough to justify the DMS setup. I found just as much performance improvement, for my purposes, from the SPT suspension kit for my WRX wagon. I think that people on the board will be curious to see what comes out of your shop. Kevin

[BoxerGT2.5]

I can vouch that JIC is good stuff. :) Just my 2 cents on coilovers.

[B4_Maniac]

I got to say my HKS coilovers are amazeing. I took a ride in a EVO MR today..and I would say they are comparable to the MR's Bilstiens in ride quality and stiffness. That's my opinion though.

[FTSELGP]

[quote name='gtguy']I agree with your final statement, though I think (hope) that the folks at STi are, with their spring set, after more than a look. People are having very good experiences with them, so far. ... I think that people on the board will be curious to see what comes out of your shop. Kevin[/QUOTE]I would not count on the "very good experience" with the STi crowd, at least I would not generalize it. Pinks are alright, I personally think H&R is better though. However, we received so many calls from Pink upgraders complaining about performance, it was suprising to us. However, the main reason for those was primarily due to the users not really understanding what they are agreeing with the purchase and having too high of expectations; not the product's fault. We used JICs the entire 2004 season, and we have been very successful with them; and it is one very few brands that we agree to carry. However, they are not for everyone and at very edge of the performance, they have few thing lacking; such 2-way or 3-way adjustments, and non-linear dampening at specific frequency. At the same time, for the cost of them, they are great value overall. HKS similarly a good brand and offer multiple options for various driver types, but I always felt that they can be improved in some areas. In terms of our work with the overall chassis tuning for the Legacy, we are only in the early phases of determining if there is a market. We don't just take off-the-shelf coilovers that fit a particular car and put it up for sale. There is tremendous work involved in making them work in a particular way for a given platform. So, before we make the investment, we need to see if truly improve the platform and provide customers with something that they would feel good about. A prime example if Kevin's point of view, which may very well be quite valid for 90% of Legacy owners. If that is the case, doing the research and re-engineering on coilovers is hard to justify. The problem is that most of the lower-tier coilover brands in the market, just come up with a fitment and release a product set that is generally far from optimal; then they charge anywhere from $2K to $4K for them as if they are something special. We don't sell a unit unless we know it works the way we think it should work and make final customizations according to specific customers. Right now, I don't see any good products in the market for coilovers, nor we have determined the market; so we'll see... On the other hand, it is clear that there is a strong interest in engine performance upgrades and engine tuning. And being the east coast distributor for Cobb Tuning there is easy justfication for us from the start about our focus on the Legacy platform :) Cheers, FT

[c_hunter]

Don't know about the Legacy, but in the WRX, the strut towers are right next to the firewall (=humongous web of a brace), so a strut bar is totally un-needed. The amount of extra bracing it would provide would be peanuts. Craig

[godwhomismike]

[quote name='FT@SELGP'][b][b]rclark -[/b][/b] IMHO, anti-roll bars (or swaybars as many call them) can certainly be the first upgrade, they would provide noticeable improvements. Cheers, FT[/QUOTE] I'm a noob when it comes to modding, but it seems logical that if the stock tires can't handle the car's limits then wtf is the point of raising the cars limit on stock tires? I'm siding with gtguy on this issue for now. There is only a very very select few who auto-x their legacy's here, maybe for them it's a good mod, but do you really need to brace the car for normal driving like 99.9% of us here do? I think it's a big fat waste of money. Use the money yoou would've used on the STB for good tires, or winter's if you need them. - Mike

[Xenonk]

Let's put it this way: Active stage 1 upgrade = tires Passive stage 1 upgrade = wheels If you cant figure out what is Active and what is Passive, maybe it's time to do a lot more research on car control and dynamics BEFORE adding ANYTHING to the car. Keefe

[FTSELGP]

[quote name='godwhomismike']I'm a noob when it comes to modding, but it seems logical that if the stock tires can't handle the car's limits then wtf is the point of raising the cars limit on stock tires? - Mike[/QUOTE]Well, actually, you are not raising the car's limits with the chassis mods - if done right; you are raising the tires' limits :) The tires are no good, we all know. Stock tires, for the way the chassis is setup off the factory, are getting overloaded in many ways and that is what's leading the poor handling. Remember, shocks, springs, A/R bars, overall suspension arms, etc. are all there to keep the tires at their best position during various driving situations; it is not the other way around. It is all about tires. So, I would agree that the best bang for the buck for the stock car is upgrading the tires. However, I would also upgrade the wheels to 8" or 8.5" and possibly 18" diameter. However, the cost of the upgrade is roughly $2500 for a good package. Compare that to few hundred dollars for A/R bars, and it is a very good option IMHO. Everyone has their priorities. Yesterday, I was at the dealership's service department; an older woman was talking to a service manager about how she loves her Forester XT. "But.." she said "when I take turns, it is very uncomfortable, it feels like it will roll over, the whole body of the car leans terribly". I guess she fits into the remaining 0.1% of the drivers ;) In terms of the strut tower brace, its effects are less evident than the A/R bars. However, especially in all of the subaru platforms (including the WRX), you can feel the difference; well at least I can. For $80 to $150, it is a no brainer in my book; people pay that much for detailing their cars.

[PGT]

I am getting the larger 20MM rear sway bar and will add the 'pink' springs sometime in the spring. I would consider this a 'stage 1' upgrade. Better tires (and lighter wheels possibly) are a given, so let's call them a 'stage zero'

[PGT]

[quote name='FT@SELGP']I would not count on the "very good experience" with the STi crowd, at least I would not generalize it. Pinks are alright, I personally think H&R is better though. However, we received so many calls from Pink upgraders complaining about performance, it was suprising to us. However, the main reason for those was primarily due to the users not really understanding what they are agreeing with the purchase and having too high of expectations; not the product's fault. [/QUOTE] Could you elaborate on pinks vs. H&R please? I have had several aftermarket springs at one time or another on many cars I have owned: H&R, Neuspeed (made by H&R), Eibach, Tokico (made by Eibach). They all had one thing in common - they all were sweet at first but sagged after the first six to nine months. A local tuning shop that did the install on a few of my cars says this is typical of aftermarket springs and they end up putting new springs in about every 18-24 months on their own cars. They are a race prep shop, so it is normal from them to swap out parts on a regular basis. I don't feel like I should have to replace aftermarket springs at all after purchasing them once - they claim to have a warranty and no sag after initial break-in, yet the sets I have sent back for warranty replacement have come back 'no defect found'. I guess I would like to know why you consider H&R better than pinks. I have decided to add pinks vs. an aftermarket spring due to my consistently bad performance on four different vehicles with aftermarket products. The main reason being that I hope they have consistent performance through their use on the car, since they are an 'OEM' product. Thanks for any input or opinions -Dan

[gtguy]

[quote name='Patagonian GT']Could you elaborate on pinks vs. H&R please? I have had several aftermarket springs at one time or another on many cars I havee owned: H&R, Neuspeed (made by H&R), Eibach, Tokico (made by Eibach). They all had one thing in common - they all were sweet at first but sagged after the first six to nine months. A local tuning shop that did the install on a few of my cars says this is typical of aftermarket springs and they end up putting new springs in about every 18-24 months on their own cars. They are a race prep shop, so it is normal from them to swap out parts on a regular basis. I guess I would like to know why you consider H&R better than pinks. I have decided to add pinks vs. an aftermarket spring due to my consistently bad performance on four different vehicles with aftermarket products. The main reason being that I hope thhey have consistent performance through their use on the car, since they are an 'OEM' product. Thanks for any input or opinions[/QUOTE] I'm with patagonian on this one. I know many people who would NEVER put H&R springs on their car. Too much drop, erratic performance, and droop. I admit to also finding it curious that there would be large numbers of pink spring users who dislike the product, but don't report to anyone. It seems that we would have read something on NASIOC, or one of the other Subaru boards. Any links to threads would be appreciated, because everybody I know who has STi pink springs loves them, and the performance of the springs has not changed over time. Kevin

[PGT]

[quote name='gtguy']I'm with patagonian on this one. I know many people who would NEVER put H&R springs on their car. Too much drop, erratic performance, and droop. I admit to also finding it curious that there would be large numbers of pink spring users who dislike the product, but don't report to anyone. It seems that we would have read something on NASIOC, or one of the other Subaru boards. Any links to threads would be appreciated, because everybody I know who has STi pink springs loves them, and the performance of the springs has not changed over time. Kevin[/QUOTE] Did I hear that right? You agreed with someone Kevin? :lol: Even the stickers that came with my H&R springs sucked - they wouldn't come off the application paper without separating into pieces. (Don't worry - they were going on my toolbox, not the car)

[FTSELGP]

Well, let's see how I can explains this, hmmm... First, springs are made of various materials, most common steel. Independent of the material it will eventually sag or actually settle further. The spring rate never changes though. H&R is litterally the # 1 brand in the world for all sort of applications; believe it or not that is undisputed. They have tremdous history, experience and technology; for even as simple things as springs. When the topic is competition, which it is not here, H&R is truly one notch above all with their precise rate, light weight materials, etc. For "lowering springs" you won't get that type of technology due to cost. However, H&R does more homework that others in lowering springs. Think of one indication: as soon as a car model comes out, within two months Eibach and other come up with springs; it takes H&R 6-7 months. What is more amazing is that the level their spring drop the car is nearly the ideal ride-height we have with coilovers, which took us a good bit of 6 months to come up with on the STi platform. However, for street applications, none of it matters IMHO. Spring-only modifications is something we stay away from unless there is no other option for a given customer. Coilovers, and not just any, are the way to do it right. But if price is same between some brand of springs vs. H&R, I'd go with H&R; just personal preference based on our experience and knowledge.

[PGT]

I put H&R OE springs with Koni yellow dampers on a '91 CRX Si for road use. I hated it after the car settled. I was supposed to see a minimal drop of .75" - they settled at 1.75" and then I had problems with the Koni's. Before I went with that set-up, I had my mind set on H&R coilovers due to all the issues I had with every previous set up on different cars- the guys at TireRack talked me out of the coilovers saying it was too stiff for street driving and I went with their spring/strut recommendation. I have to say - I was sold on H&R for all the reasons you listed above. I was turned off after the real-world experience. I couldn't even get a normal floor jack under the car, the springs sagged so much. I almost was riding on the bump stops for two years until I sold the car.

[gtguy]

The Tire Rack guys were right about the H&R coilovers being too stiff. I drove/rode them on a WRX wagon, and man! The owner kept going on about how they didn't feel stiff because the spring rates were in compliance with the damping, etc. After a month, he was selling them because they were too harsh. :lol: Kevin

[FTSELGP]

I am sorry you guys had bad experiences, I wish I could help diagnose them for you... My personal experiences with the H&R brand overall has been very positive on the street and in competition. :confused:

[gtguy]

[quote name='FT@SELGP']I am sorry you guys had bad experiences, I wish I could help diagnose them for you... My personal experiences with the H&R brand overall has been very positive on the street and in competition. :confused:[/QUOTE] Oh, the H&R coilovers weren't "bad," by definition. Their spring and damping rates were just incompatible with Chicago-area roads. The only car I've seen with H&R springs, the owner loved, because he said that it looked great. It didn't seem to handle all that well, however, and he had to exercise caution over speed bumps, potholes and the like. I'm one of those "pothole? Cool!" guys who mash the throttle to see if anything breaks. :lol: It's what sold me on the SPT suspension kit and P1 wheels. Kevin

[PGT]

[quote name='FT@SELGP']I am sorry you guys had bad experiences, I wish I could help diagnose them for you... [/QUOTE] Me too. I have spent thousands on aftermarket stuff from top companys. :mad: [QUOTE] My personal experiences with the H&R brand overall has been very positive on the street and in competition. :confused:[/QUOTE] The local shop did drive the car while I had it in for all new brakes. They basically told me that every aftermarket spring they install ends up like the H&Rs did for me - they don't maintain their performance over the long haul. These guys are a Cobb dealer, as well as UUC and GIAC (mostly German cars). I felt good with these guys working on my street car as they each had race cars (one a CRX like mine) and did alot of street mod and race prep work. I would have thought that there was something wrong with the install were it not for my identical experience with every car I had put springs on in the past ('90 Prelude Si with Tokicos and Eibach springs, '98 Accord with Koni's and Neuspeed springs, '89 Civic Si with Tokico springs/struts, and then the CRX Si with Koni/H&R).

[PGT]

[quote name='gtguy']Oh, the H&R coilovers weren't "bad," by definition. Their spring and damping rates were just incompatible with Chicago-area roads. The only car I've seen with H&R springs, the owner loved, because he said that it looked great. It didn't seem to handle all that well, however, and he had to exercise caution over speed bumps, potholes and the like. I'm one of those "pothole? Cool!" guys who mash the throttle to see if anything breaks. :lol: It's what sold me on the SPT suspension kit and P1 wheels. Kevin[/QUOTE] Kevin - so, you feel that the stuff available from Subaru holds up well with consistent performance? I would expect nothing less than that from an OEM part, but you have the real world experience I lack with Suby parts.

[gtguy]

[quote name='Patagonian GT']Kevin - so, you feel that the stuff available from Subaru holds up well with consistent performance? I would expect nothing less than that from an OEM part, but you have the real world experience I lack with Suby parts.[/QUOTE] I had the SPT kit, with STi rear links package, on my WRX wagon for almost three years, through track days, auto crosses, ice races and rally crosses, not to mention the aforementioned "Oooh! A speed bump!" friskiness. No squeaks, no clunks, no sticking, no performance change, no nothing. The guy who bought my car in June has reported nothing, either. The Subaru "aftermarket" bits are OE-quality, and then some. They are a bit spendy at first, but there's nothing like winging through a rally-x corner on two wheels, coming down nice and hard, finishing the run, and not having to worry about a thing. Great stuff. Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='gtguy']I had the SPT kit, with STi rear links package, on my WRX wagon for almost three years, through track days, auto crosses, ice races and rally crosses, not to mention the aforementioned "Oooh! A speed bump!" friskiness. No squeaks, no clunks, no sticking, no performance change, no nothing. The guy who bought my car in June has reported nothing, either. The Subaru "aftermarket" bits are OE-quality, and then some. They are a bit spendy at first, but there's nothing like winging through a rally-x corner on two wheels, coming down nice and hard, finishing the run, and not having to worry about a thing. Great stuff. Kevin[/QUOTE] You know what Kev..I just finished a Auto X today..and the whole time in the back of my mind was... I hope my coilovers can take this.. I hope HKS took this into consideration...."Are they going to be okay..?" "Whoops heard a pop..was that my suspension.."... :confused: So, I completely understand your feeling here. I am not saying that my HKS's had issuses but that was their debut AUTO X and of course I was not confident with their performance before I took them out there. But, besides alot fo user error.. ( :D ) they held the car flat and worked where they were suppsed to. But, my faith probably would have been a bit stronger if they were a OEM part. I would have probably went with a OEM offer if one was available, and I am not just talking about a spring switcheroo. No thanks. But, then again, I am one that would have paid full MSRP for watever a USMD version of the JDM car would have cost and would not change a thing on it. I think Subaru truly underestimated their American market for a Legacy. I think if they knew they could get people to buy a better model or upgrades from start..they would have been quicker and wiser with their offerings and choises. B4

[hiymeh]

Yeah I'd consider a front strut bar with the way my car was rollin on the off ramp today

[gtguy]

[quote name='hiymeh']Yeah I'd consider a front strut bar with the way my car was rollin on the off ramp today[/QUOTE] An STi strut tower bar is available from your dealer, not that it would help anything. Kevin