Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 You got the front and rear LCA's? What is the diff between the GT and Spec B LCA's? Front Lower Control Arms, Rear Trailing Arms & Upper Links. The Spec.B components are all forged aluminum, versus steel for the GT. The result is an unsprung weight savings of ~3lb/corner at the front, and an unknown amount at the rear. (The AL trailing arms weigh ~11lbs, but I haven't taken off and measured the stock ones yet) I will post up the final measurements once the install is complete. *Updated in post #62* Lower unsprung weight allows the suspension to react quicker to the road surface, but the difference to stock pales in comparison to the other components I've installed. It is mostly just so I can say I've done it... Where did you purchase the RC Kit from?Purchased from Togue Tuning, along with the Steering Rack Bushing kit, which I will install further down the line with the rest of the driveline bushings/mounts. Excellent vendor, would definitely do business with them again. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLGTaru Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Nice, looks like you are getting pretty involved into the suspension. I don't know if I "NEED" to get that involved. I will probably just end up doing springs/struts, RalliTek IPD RSB and stop there for a while...I might go ahead and get the AVO LCA bushings installed in my stock LCA's...would that be a good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 I would highly recommend it. Even if you go with the stock caster versions made by SuperPro, you should see an improvement just from the stiffer material. Personally, I wanted the added caster to improve straight line stability and to increase the return-to-center action of the steering as I exit corners. I would also highly recommend the RC Kit, especially for the money. When you lower the car with Swifts you have drastically altered the static and dynamic geometry of the suspension. The roll-center height plays a very important part in how the car behaves dynamically, and the RC Kit will put the geometry back into it's intended position. This kit will reduce the bump-steer drastically and will also reduce the camber gain during suspension compression, which in turn will improve front end grip at the limit (reduces terminal understeer). I would definitely get the Bushings and RC Kit to get the most out of your Konis/Swifts, even if you put them in the stock steel control arms. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Purchased from Togue Tuning, along with the Steering Rack Bushing kit, which I will install further down the line with the rest of the driveline bushings/mounts. Excellent vendor, would definitely do business with them again. Link to their site, I couldn't find it. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 I didn't buy it through their site, I contacted them directly through PM. It should be available from any Whiteline dealer... KC313 for the RC Kit and KSR207 for the steering rack bushings, IIRC. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLGTaru Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I would highly recommend it. Even if you go with the stock caster versions made by SuperPro, you should see an improvement just from the stiffer material. Personally, I wanted the added caster to improve straight line stability and to increase the return-to-center action of the steering as I exit corners. I would also highly recommend the RC Kit, especially for the money. When you lower the car with Swifts you have drastically altered the static and dynamic geometry of the suspension. The roll-center height plays a very important part in how the car behaves dynamically, and the RC Kit will put the geometry back into it's intended position. This kit will reduce the bump-steer drastically and will also reduce the camber gain during suspension compression, which in turn will improve front end grip at the limit (reduces terminal understeer). I would definitely get the Bushings and RC Kit to get the most out of your Konis/Swifts, even if you put them in the stock steel control arms. Thanks for that info, I will look into the RC Kit. How difficult is it to install these parts? I might just want a shop to do it for me, depends on how many labor hours I'm looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal2You Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Link to their site, I couldn't find it. This thread got me interested. I found the roll center kit http://www.tougetuning.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=22_23_24_27&products_id=269 and the steering rack bushings http://www.tougetuning.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=22_23_24_27&products_id=337 at Togue Tuning's site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Are you still running on that crap alignment? - Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 Thanks for that info, I will look into the RC Kit. How difficult is it to install these parts? I might just want a shop to do it for me, depends on how many labor hours I'm looking at. Heh... EXTREMELY difficult. Reference these threads: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86579 http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89059 After failing to extract the ball joint I towed it to the dealership and had them finish the work. Including the alignment the damage was just under $300. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 Are you still running on that crap alignment? - Andrew Nope it's been aligned since, although I'm still not completely satisfied. I want to put in the trailing arms and adjustable rear links before I get a performance alignment. I will post up the results of my most recent alignment later tonight. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I think the alignment is a pretty big part of it. And you can get away with more negative front camber up front without a penalty in tire wear, as long as your toe is fixed. - Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLGTaru Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Heh... EXTREMELY difficult. Reference these threads: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86579 http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89059 After failing to extract the ball joint I towed it to the dealership and had them finish the work. Including the alignment the damage was just under $300. Yeah, I am not at all interested in trying to do any of that myself, so I will probably have a shop, or dealer, if they are cheap enough to do the work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLGTaru Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Does the dealership do a pretty good job at alignment? Specifically speaking for a car that has been modified suspension wise, can they dial it in pretty good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 RCE: yeah, I'm pretty sure the most recent alignment has all but zeroed out the toe issues. The negative camber has definitely jumped since I dropped the car on springs, but like I said, I will post up the actual numbers later on this evening. Brad: You should try driving on the Konis/Swifts for a while before putting these in. I definitely appreciate the subtleties of the mods more doing it this way rather than all-at-once. If I had to prioritize the list of what I've done so far it would be: 0. Tires 1. Konis, hands-down 2. AVO bushings 3. Swifts/RC Kit (I consider the RC Kit necessary for a lowered suspension) 4. Control Arms The dealership did an okay job with the alignment, but I was more concerned with getting it back on the road, so I didn't hound them about getting it perfect. Also, I plan on having it realigned properly after I finish the rear components. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 This is where the subaru tech put the settings after installing the LCA/Bushings/RC Kit on the car. Left Front.............Right Front Camber: -1.1°......Camber: -1.3° Caster: 6.6°.........Caster: 6.3° Toe: -0.01°............Toe: -0.01° Front: Cross Camber: 0.2° Total Toe: -0.02° Left Rear...............Right Rear Camber: -1.1°.......Camber: -1.6° Toe: 0.22°.............Toe: 0.31° Rear: Cross Camber: 0.6° Total Toe: 0.53° Thrust Angle: -0.04° The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Front Lower Control Arms, Rear Trailing Arms & Upper Links. The Spec.B components are all forged aluminum, versus steel for the GT. The result is an unsprung weight savings of ~3lbs/corner at the front, and an unknown amount at the rear. (The AL trailing arms weigh ~11lbs, but I haven't taken off and measured the stock ones yet) I will post up the final measurements once the install is complete. Lower unsprung weight allows the suspension to react quicker to the road surface, but the difference to stock pales in comparison to the other components I've installed. It is mostly just so I can say I've done it... Purchased from Togue Tuning, along with the Steering Rack Bushing kit, which I will install further down the line with the rest of the driveline bushings/mounts. Excellent vendor, would definitely do business with them again. Nice to Find Someone who thinks like Me !! I say that because my LGT has been down for a few months due to Road Hazards Big A$$ Pot holes in LA... How does that happen in a forever sunny State .... Well Long story short I have been slowly putting my Baby back together the Right way . Flaken 452/5Zigen520 with plans to do Spec B. Control Arms U.L. & RTA. I have KartBoy End Link & Whiteline Sway F/R & working on Swift Springs & Tokico D-Spec Struts. I appreciate the info on the Roll Center & Bushing had Plans on Stock!! But Stock is what got me in this situation. The Pot Hole Bent the Weaker:soap_box: Stock Control Arm & 2 Rims!!! Front Right Tire RE92 was stuck in the Forum of the Pot hole. Say Pissssed off !!!! But Cool new Suspension:icon_chee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 7, 2008 Author Share Posted June 7, 2008 Thanks for the post Bones! *Nerd Alert - Engineering Content Ahead* When a part is made in steel and aluminum alloy variations there are a number of ways that the design can be optimized for the material. If the two control arms were built to the same fabrication drawing, the aluminum part would weigh ~35% less. Therefore, if the engineer designed the aluminum arm to match the weight of the steel arm, it could be considerably stronger than the steel counterpart (we're talking mild alloy steels, nothing exotic). However, aluminum will generally have a lower threshold for flexure cycling so the part as a whole must be designed around stiffness. Steel has a large "plastic" region, meaning it can absorb more energy in flex before it reaches the yield point (where the material distorts and doesn't snap back). For this reason, an aluminum part must be designed stiffer (in most cases larger) than the steel counterpart in order to avoid reaching the yield point of the material. The end result is that the aluminum part will be stiffer and somewhat stronger than the steel component, and as a bonus the weight will be slightly better, but probably not the full 35% I stated earlier. My point is that these control arms will not be so much stronger that you can drive without regard for potholes, etc... In fact, with the stiffer suspension even more of the force will be absorbed by the rigid components, so damage becomes even more of a concern. Best of luck with getting your car back on the road! The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Stiffer arms are not always the best. In case of a nasty pothole or something, the alu arm might withstand the impact, but transfer it over more to the causing damage elsewhere (knucle, strut, chassis), a steel arm would not, by absorbing (and/or yielding) the impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 Good summation unclemat... Another thing to consider is that the steel arms are probably considerably cheaper to replace than the aluminum arms. Racecomp Engineering, what do you think of the alignment readout I posted in #40? I plan on fixing the rear camber once I put in the AL trailing arms and adjustable links; I want to try to make the car as neutral as possible without adding a stiffer rear sway. The rear toe-in is a bit concerning. I wonder if the tech was unable to zero it out, or just didn't try since it was in spec. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 The front looks great. The rear toe and camber both are concerning and i'd wonder if it's just a crappy alignment or something is just bent. - Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 Yeah, I'm not sure why they're so far off either..? They have always been within a tenth or two of a degree. Anyways, I'm putting in new everything except the "rear" link which adjusts the toe. Hopefully bringing the camber back in line with the adjustable "forward" links will make it possible to zero out the rear toe. I'm really looking forward to playing with camber to get the car handling neutrally. I'm thinking of maxing out the front camber (without exceeding -1.5) and starting the rears with about .5 degrees less, and experimenting from there-on. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Inspect the alignment bolt washers - if they are not rounded out. Some alignment monkeys are skilled enough to overtorque the eccentric bolts and mess up the washers. Then the toe will be all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 Will do, if I ever get around to the rest of the components. I'm feeling gun-shy ever since the ball joint fiasco. I can only imagine the problems I'll run into trying to pull the trailing arms. Axle nut, wheel hub unit bearing, lower shock bolt (again)... gah. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 They had problems getting my rear tow in line as well. One shop said it couldn't be done, the next shop used OEM wheels, a rag and a piece of 2x4 and got the toe easily in line, been 20,000km and rear tires are wearing exceptionally well. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 ...the next shop used OEM wheels, a rag and a piece of 2x4 and got the toe easily in line.... Um, what? I'm not really following this work procedure... The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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