Where’s the Legacy GT electronic stability control?

[SUBE555]

Not just any AWD, Subaru AWD. ;) I'll punch out the differential/dynamic control systems portion of the tech FAQ ASAP to help remedy some of these thoughts. Just for everyone's information, I have locked that thread until the rest of the information that I plan so far can be input so the newly learning have less questions to ask. Additionally, an actual FAQ section will be added to reference information like this. :)

[gtmy04]

[quote name='DWColorado'][quote name='Th3Franz']Wouldn't you rather drive a car than a computer?[/quote] If I didn’t want to drive a computer, I’d look at buying a Model-T, 57 Chevy or some other car without an engine ECU. If a computer can do a better job at something or at the very least keep me out of trouble when I’m doing something stupid, than YES, I do want to be driving a computer. [/quote] You may be better off investing in a driving course or a Hyundai.

[Dr. Zevil]

Easy now.. Maybe what the guy needs to understand is that Subaru enthusiast are just that because we enjoy the driving experience. We enjoy the performance and the value that these cars offer. None of use Subaru owners have ever had any issue in any kind of weather condition with our AWD system. It's absolutely money. If you like the legacy but you worry about the computer assisted yada yada yada, don't.. this car will be everything that you want..

[SUBE555]

If you're moving up from something significantly more, a driving school may be a good investment of money. :) I plan on doing one in the next year or so to become closer to being one with my car even though I know it fairly well.

[ha-evolution]

If they really wanted to stick a traction control system on the Legacy I wouldn't be against it if it didn't raise the price and there was a way to totally disable it.

[GBY]

[quote name='"SUBE555"']Not just any AWD, Subaru AWD. ;)[quote] Indeed, actually that's a quote from the 2002 WRX brochure. I don’t know how many times I read it before I bought my car, obsessive compulsive.

[Th3Franz]

Many other good points ^. I've mostly seen traction or stability control on FWD cars, which doesn't say much for it in my opinion. I can't wait to own a new car with AWD. :D Seth, if you are going to do a driving school and it doesn't rob the bank, let me know.

[GBY]

My experience driving cars with traction control is limited, last Christmas I was driving a friends Volvo V70 T5 wagon while she was in Europe. Naturally I gave it a good working over to see what it was made of both with the traction switched on and off. There was very little difference in the way it responded on the road, either way it felt like crap. In fact the traction light was continually flashing with it switched on which was distracting :roll:

[team23jordan]

AWD dont really need a traction control but its always good to have traction control just like whoever said driving skill is what it matters the most but a lot of people who buy cars dont really know crap about their car and learn driving techniques and stuff thats why theres bunch of craps to avoid those idiots to get in an accident i personally think "electric aids" are "must" for over 30g cars i belive some insurance company has discounts for some stuff

[gtguy]

The Skip Barber two-day school is most excellent. It will make you a dramatically different and better driver. Sube, you can take yours at Road America, which was really cool. Kevin

[SUBE555]

When I've got the cash Kevin. ;) Time too. :) Sorta OT, but jordan can you please TRY writing in complete sentences? I'm going bonkers reading fragments.

[GBY]

[quote name='SUBE555']Sorta OT, but jordan can you please TRY writing in complete sentences? I'm going bonkers reading fragments.[/quote] Easy on my man T23 Sube.

[ha-evolution]

[quote name='SUBE555']When I've got the cash Kevin. ;) Time too. :)[/quote] I know what you mean. Road America is awesome and it would be well worth the money to take attend Skip Barber just for the experience of driving there for more than 30 minutes let alone the knowledge that would be gained. Gtguy - which class did you attend?

[DWColorado]

Ah … after a little research over at nasioc, I now see why you all might not like Subaru’s VDC. At least according to something I read over there, the VDC on the current Outback’s can’t be turned on/off with a switch?! I’m coming from the Audi perspective where you can turn it on/off with a switch. My Audi doesn’t have ESP (too old), but a co-workers allroad has a switch for turning it on/off. I haven’t shopped new Audi’s lately, so I don’t know if the latest ones still have a switch or not? In any event, I would definitely prefer a switch to turn stability control on/off when I want to have fun or think I'd do a better job controlling the car, but there are situations where I think stability control has some advantages … for instance if my wife is driving the car and a tire blows out on her while she is going around a curve (a guy posting in AudiWorld experienced this exact scenario on a freeway on-ramp and attributes ESP from keeping his car from hitting the guard rail … yeah he may have been driving too fast to control an unexpected tire blow out, but who hasn’t at one time or another). P.S. SUBE555 – I have taken the Bridgestone winter driving course in Steamboat and even rented out their track for some private time to “become closer to being one with my car” :D (albeit Quattro and not Subaru AWD). I may not have dry track experience or a racing course like Skip Barber, but I don’t consider myself inexperienced when it comes to driving in the snow.

[SUBE555]

I can understand your desire for wanting those features, however, by driving within the goverment speed guidelines and the capabilities of the vehicle addition to not 'freaking out' like I've personally seen a few SUV owners do and crash with blowouts (even at 20mph on city streets :o), you should be alright regardless, particularly with 17" wheels over 16" wheels where there is less distance for the car to fall off so to speak. In our motorhome probably 8 years ago now, we were on a trip and had a dual wheel blow out at 70mph with the other just barely handling the rest of the load. That's for sure a lot more of handful, and by just keeping steady movement to the shoulder and slowing kept it easily under control. There were zero electronic aids. I guess I am a proponent of knowing your car, pay the $20 extra bucks to actually put decent tires on it, and make sure everything is in good order. Those factors more than any electronic aid will help save your life. The electronics might do a little bit, but I'm just not convinced they would help me as much as hinder. One thing to remember, for VW/Audi is that those features help sell their cars to that more syphisticated type of buyer who thinks they need it to be safer. In many cases it's more mind over matter. (As I like to say I don't mind and you don't matter. :lol:) I have more info going up in the Tech Info/FAQ section tonight or tomorrow. Already some information posted for starters though. Nice to see you have taken that step towards better learning your car. I think the Legacy GT will be a good amount better drivers car than the Audi's, and from what I've read it should be. Sometimes simplicity is a good thing, and that is the approach Subaru appears to have taken. I'd like to see a Torsen/Helical/Quaife type of front LSD optional on the turbo/H6 but non-STi cars, particularly manual transmission cars. That would help to promote an even better neutral, yet in control type of feel and surefooting. :)

[GBY]

[quote name='SUBE555']I guess I am a proponent of knowing your car, pay the $20 extra bucks to actually put decent tires on it, and make sure everything is in good order. Those factors more than any electronic aid will help save your life. The electronics might do a little bit, but I'm just not convinced they would help me as much as hinder. One thing to remember, for VW/Audi is that those features help sell their cars to that more syphisticated type of buyer who thinks they need it to be safer. :)[/quote] Well said, I totally agree.

[SUBE555]

I have also added a good amount of information on the various types of differentials and the main electronic input systems Subaru is currently using including VDC, VTD, ATS, and the DCCD system in the STi. Everyone may want to take a look at the Tech Info thread to better understand how the Subaru drivetrain works. I have a few more things to add in the drivetrain section, so as of right now, it will stay closed for a little longer until I can complete it and then it will open to field questions and become an FAQ. :)

[gtguy]

[quote name='ha-evolution'][quote name='SUBE555']When I've got the cash Kevin. ;) Time too. :)[/quote] I know what you mean. Road America is awesome and it would be well worth the money to take attend Skip Barber just for the experience of driving there for more than 30 minutes let alone the knowledge that would be gained. Gtguy - which class did you attend?[/quote] I took the two-day driving. It was actually a Christmas present from my most awesome wife. Man. I did NOT know how to drive going in, let me tell you. Oh, and I learned that I wouldn't drive a Viper if one was given to me. :lol: "You can't really see the nose, so just turn in until you see the cone start to move, then go for the apex," saith my instructor. :lol: Kevin

[ha-evolution]

[quote name='gtguy']I took the two-day driving. It was actually a Christmas present from my most awesome wife. Man. I did NOT know how to drive going in, let me tell you. Oh, and I learned that I wouldn't drive a Viper if one was given to me. :lol: "You can't really see the nose, so just turn in until you see the cone start to move, then go for the apex," saith my instructor. :lol: Kevin[/quote] Did you think you where a great driver before you took the class though (as most people do)? I'm guessing that would be my reaction to the class also. How much car time do you get? That's just too funny about the Viper.

[GBY]

[quote name='ha-evolution'] How much car time do you get? That's just too funny about the Viper.[/quote] Kev, You took the course that has you driving the Neon, Dakota and then the bad boy Viper correct? Can you give us a more information on what the course involves? Please :)

[gtguy]

[quote name='Gumby'][quote name='ha-evolution'] How much car time do you get? That's just too funny about the Viper.[/quote] Kev, You took the course that has you driving the Neon, Dakota and then the bad boy Viper correct? Can you give us a more information on what the course involves? Please :)[/quote] Okay, day 1: (or as much as I can remember) First, you learn how to sit in the car, and how to shuffle steer. None of that leaning, or one-handed nonsense. Shuffle steering, for the unfamiliar, is when, with your hands at three and nine o'clock, you shuffle them to steer the car, so that their position never changes. You're just feeding the steering wheel through them. No crossovers, ever. Very nice, and very smooth. Then there was classroom work, lots of skidpad work trying to keep the Dakotas (with welded rear axles) to keep from spinning. Verrry humbling, I can assure you. Some heel-toe work in Neons, more skidpad, lane tossing (changing lanes in the shortest amount of time without spinning the car), threshold brake drills, where you learn how to stop the car with and without ABS. This, by the by, is why the people who talk about disabling their ABS crack me up. The guys at Skip Barber say "We LOVE ABS. We can brake very well, and this ABS is better than we are." They're right and trust me, those guys are good. This was followed by more classroom work, explaining cornering lines, etc, little things such as thinking of a chain that is attached to your throttle foot and the steering wheel. As you turn the wheel more, the chain pulls your foot off of the gas pedal. Nice stuff. We also did some braking while turning drills, and more skidpad stuff which was nice, because spinning a car is the most frightening thing that any driver will experience. It's nice to know that you have the knowledge, post-school, to be able to correct an error (hopefully). Day two: (again, as best I can remember) More classroom stuff, some heel/toe drills, reflex stuff, where you drive at 35 mph up this center lane, toward three lanes, all with red lights. At some point the light in one of the lanes turns green, and you have to steer the car into the green lane, then brake in the stopping box. This was really, REALLY hard. The instructors also could control when the light turned green, so they were able to keep hotshots in their places quite nicely. Skidpad work followed, then we got to lap and autocross in the Vipers. For anyone who ever has a hankering to drive one, calm down...they aren't that hot, though it is pretty cool to drive a car that can go 90 mph in second gear. :lol: The balance of classroom to car work was something like 30/70 (class/car), which was about right. Too much driving would leave you overstimulated. The first day was about a ten-hour day, and about eight hours for the second day, but the time passes so quickly, you don't realize it. When I took it, the class cost less than a kilobuck, but it might be more expensive now. What you learn is that no matter how good you think you are, you aren't that good. It's humbling, and you come away with so much knowledge that helps you in life. And you learn to drive paranoid, because you realize how much better you were than the average driver, and how little you knew going into the school. It scares the crap out of you. Hope that helps. It's worth every penny, because what you learn in that school can keep you out of an accident, or worse. People talk about autocrossing being a good way to learn how to drive, but I don't believe that's the case, because you're going for time, you aren't really working on your driving skills, or the skills you need to become a better everyday driver, as well as a better driver while at speed. The balance and car control skills that you learn will help you everywhere from driving to work and avoiding the eejits, to that local rallycross. Awesome stuff. Kevin

[GBY]

Thanks Kev, very much appreciated.

[ha-evolution]

Excellent write up. Sounds like the class is definately worth the money.

[apexjapan]

Not to detract from Kevin's excellent commentary on driving schools (which is possibly the most valuable investment you can make if you drive), but I'd like to address the F1 traction control comments. F1 is about incredibly lightweight vehicles with insane amounts of power. Traction control does indeed aid them in exiting corners, and in fact, has always been a centerpoint of my arguments *for* AWD vs. RWD. In something that extreme, it does aid the drivers - especially since it's a multi-million dollar system that's been tuned specifically for that driver by a race team of professionals. However, the traction control and stability control systems found on modern passenger vehicles are not multi-million dollar systems (at least on an individual basis) and are a much more generic MacTune™ that has to be everything for everybody. Thus there are inherent compromises and sometimes odd behaviour that can hinder an experienced driver more than aid. The very focus of such systems is inexperienced drivers, and they are tuned for that. Defeat switches help, of course, but many of the cars with such systems that I've tested lately *do not fully shut off*. 350Z is one that I well remember. There was also something dodgy about it's ABS that had it sliding straight when invoked, a lovely thing to find out when itsy-bitsy guardrails are all that is between you and a sky-diving maneouver. Many journo's that have driven both the AYC-equipped Evo and the American, non-AYC equipped Evo back to back have said the same thing - the non-AYC Evo was more fun and easier to control at the limits. That is because anybody that actually has an understanding of the limits got there by learning to predict what happens to the car, and electronic systems *take that control and ability to predict out of your hands*. I know when the rear end is going to bust loose - and when I automatically correct for it (reflexively) it goes beyond being a pain in the ass when the car decides it's going to do it's own thing as well. It can be quite dangerous at that point, something that goes beyond the idea of such systems in the first place. Cheers, Paul Hansen

[3.75L H6]

[quote name='team23jordan']Audi is more reliable than subaru[/quote] Let's see the proof. From all I've ever heard, especially within the last ten years, Subaru has recieved excellent reliability marks while Audi has proven below average. The latest auto [and previous] Consumer Reports confirms my thoughts.