SUBE555 Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 [quote name='3.75L H6'][quote name='team23jordan']Audi is more reliable than subaru[/quote] Let's see the proof. From all I've ever heard, especially within the last ten years, Subaru has recieved excellent reliability marks while Audi has proven below average. The latest auto [and previous] Consumer Reports confirms my thoughts.[/quote] I have read the same and concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Do we have a third? Yes, I third that. JD Powers long-term reliability points to the same conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Well said, Paul. As far as Audi being more reliable than Subaru, all I know is the mechanics at my dealership say "Kevin, we never see you!" A (formerly) S4-owning friend had the mechanics at his dealership say "Good morning, Mr. XXX! Good to see you again! (insert cash register sound here)" :lol: I think that most cars are reliable. The problem comes in at the times when they aren't. Audi's free scheduled maintenance program is most excellent. Most places where you buy Subarus give you a coupon book for free oil changes, and heavily discounted scheduled maintenance. Subarus aren't particularly maintenance-intensive, either. Never mind the benefit of being able to work on them yourself. If any of you suspension sluts (like me :D ) ever want to scare yourselves, have a look at the front suspension setup on an Audi. There's all kinds of stuff going on there. Then look at your Subaru and smile. :D Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goneskiian Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Very interesting topic. Glad I decided to read it all. One very important thing I've seen people allude to but no one say outright is the difference between Traction Control systems and Vehicle Stability systems. I believe this topic was started by someone asking why Subaru doesn't include a stability system across their complete line of cars. Then I see responses using the term Traction Control. For clarity there IS a difference between these systems. Traction control systems keep the wheels from spinning so they maintain traction, while vehicle stability systems keep the car from spinning. While vehicle stability systems may have traction control as a component, traction control systems do not have to have a vehicle stability system working with them to do their job. Both, however, use the ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System) to accomplish their task. I hope I've sufficiently confused everyone now. :wink: I don't profess to know the name of each system all the different car manufacturers use. They are all much the same, just called something different by the marketing folks. Subaru's All Wheel Drive is so good (whether it's the VC units on the MT vehicles or the more complex planetary gear units on the AT vehicles) that they don't need a traction control system. Subaru's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control) is a stability system that incorporates the VTD (Variable Torque Distribution) system found on many of their AT cars. Why don't they offer it across the board? I don't know. But as Paul, Kevin and SUBE555 have stated Subaru's handle better than most cars out there because of their symetrical AWD and low center of gravity. I plan to heed their advice, buy a Subaru and take the money I could have spent on a more expensive car with one of these systems and go to some driving schools. Cheers! -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote]Subaru's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control) is a stability system that incorporates the VTD (Variable Torque Distribution) system found on many of their AT cars. [/quote] how about manual cars? Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 btw DAMN HA EVOLUTION ALMOST CAUGHT UP TO ME :evil: :twisted: Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Ya, but it's been pretty boring around here lately so I haven't posted much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote name='team23jordan'][quote]Subaru's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control) is a stability system that incorporates the VTD (Variable Torque Distribution) system found on many of their AT cars. [/quote] how about manual cars?[/quote] You might want to look over the thread. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kage Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 [quote name='team23jordan'][quote]Subaru's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control) is a stability system that incorporates the VTD (Variable Torque Distribution) system found on many of their AT cars. [/quote] how about manual cars?[/quote] Reading Comprehension: D 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goneskiian Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 [quote]Reading Comprehension: D [/quote] Or complete lack thereof... :P :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team23jordan Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 complete laziness i still haven't read it yet :evil: Perrin BIG maf intake Perrin Turbo Inlet HKS SSQV BOV Megan Racing header with UP (ceramic coated) HKS DP (WRX) DMH E-cutout Custom 3" catback UTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 [quote name='Yogi29035'] That said, it is also important to remember that the VDC system can do things that even the best driver cannot... like operating the brakes on certain wheels only. That, in conjunction with throttle control, and the ability to do all that in thousandths of a second I could see it as a real help, but only if I know how it's going to behave beforehand.[/quote] Exactly! The Legacy probably does not need additional traction control over and above its AWD system, but stability control would be a benefit. Electronic stability systems can brake only one wheel if necessary (and reduce engine power) to induce oversteer or understeer and get the vehicle back on course. Real world data indicates such systems are effective. If you are Michael Shumacher or Juan Montoya, you may be able to duplicate the effects of electronic stability controls with your driving talent, but 99.99% of Subaru drivers will not have those talents and reflexes. Just because you fancy yourself a high performance driver does not mean you can do better than a well designed stability control system in an emergency situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 I confess that I'm not a fan of electonic stability systems. In most cases, they are intrusive, and artificially raise the limits of a car. I would prefer to find "the line" and then never cross it. Just my .02. The systems, well-implemented, can have value, this is true. My dislike is a personal thing. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCJ Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 About the Subaru VDC, have a look to the Global web site : [url]http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/legacy/wagon/technology/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 i've got a 2001 acura tl, and the traction control feels worthless to me, although i've tried it on a BMW, and it was impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 There are a lot of aspects that influence how good a car is with/without electronic stability control including but not limited to: suspension geometry and setup, differentials, gearing, engine performance, and so much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub-attraction Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 [quote name='SC GT']i've got a 2001 acura tl, and the traction control feels worthless to me, although i've tried it on a BMW, and it was impressive.[/quote] I have found very little value to the traction control on my TL also. I can't really tell any difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 AWD > ESC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 [quote name='Drift Monkey']AWD > ESC.[/quote] I would have to disagree, and say that AWD is better than traction control, but is not a substitute for stability control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Depends on how the AWD system is setup. Subaru's AWD system is good enough that if I can't control the car, neither is some electronic system, so for the cost of some ESP setup, I'd much rather be without it. Besides, if it's going to incur understeer when you get out of control, if might just put you in all the wrong places. That's still just my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 [quote name='SUBE555']Depends on how the AWD system is setup. Subaru's AWD system is good enough that if I can't control the car, neither is some electronic system, so for the cost of some ESP setup, I'd much rather be without it. Besides, if it's going to incur understeer when you get out of control, if might just put you in all the wrong places. That's still just my take.[/quote] Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBY Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 And I'll second that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Whores. *shakes head* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 [quote name='Drift Monkey']AWD > ESC.[/quote] I'll make my comment more specific. Subaru Symetrical AWD negates the need for ESC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBY Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Damn right, you need a few competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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