tantal Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 penguin, you're supposed to insult me good so I can walk away from the thread with a clear conscience. Anyway, you're calling me ignorant so fair enough. You have explained all of the reasons why I would now never ever buy a bmw - I've road tested my last, an 07 coupe - no thanks, I like the early 2000's 3 series, and the pre 04 5 series. BMW is now dead to me LOL idrive, smg, electronic wipers, eps, yada yada, blah blah blah . . . OMG and what's up with the variable steering ratio? talk about ruijning driving feel - I hate it. Okay maybe id get used to it but I want precision, predictability, and reliable feel so I know what my tires are doing. Variable steering rate is absolutely nuts. It's so that lawyers can parallel park their bmw while on the cell phone with a latte. pffft. Why cant you understand that some people just want to drive a car? BMW USED to be about the drive, now its about the living room experience in a car that can go fast. The x5 was the beiginning of the end, now they are chasing high buck customers. And that is absolutely fine and dandy with me - its their business and they are making great money on peeps buying the image of great drivers cars. . . . . but the cars are NOT as good as they used to be, and they are far more complex, trouble prone, and, oh yea, the new five looks just like an avalon from 100 ft. UGH. Sorry about the bmw rant. I used to love these cars, now I have to love used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 penguin, you're supposed to insult me good so I can walk away from the thread with a clear conscience. Anyway, you're calling me ignorant so fair enough. You have explained all of the reasons why I would now never ever buy a bmw - I've road tested my last, an 07 coupe - no thanks, I like the early 2000's 3 series, and the pre 04 5 series. BMW is now dead to me LOL idrive, smg, electronic wipers, eps, yada yada, blah blah blah . . . OMG and what's up with the variable steering ratio? talk about ruijning driving feel - I hate it. Okay maybe id get used to it but I want precision, predictability, and reliable feel so I know what my tires are doing. Variable steering rate is absolutely nuts. It's so that lawyers can parallel park their bmw while on the cell phone with a latte. pffft. Why cant you understand that some people just want to drive a car? BMW USED to be about the drive, now its about the living room experience in a car that can go fast. The x5 was the beiginning of the end, now they are chasing high buck customers. And that is absolutely fine and dandy with me - its their business and they are making great money on peeps buying the image of great drivers cars. . . . . but the cars are NOT as good as they used to be, and they are far more complex, trouble prone, and, oh yea, the new five looks just like an avalon from 100 ft. UGH. Sorry about the bmw rant. I used to love these cars, now I have to love used. You know the variable rate steering is an option right? A $1200 option last time I checked, I wouldn't buy it either. No one says you have to buy the car with iDrive either, or the Premium package, or power seats, or an automatic. The company does however offer these features for those that do want them. As far as complexity goes, most any car these days is a very complex piece of machinery. Take away the optional iDrive, the (retarded) optional variable rate steering, the optional BMW assist and Blue Tooth, and the optional comfort access; and how is a 3 Series any more complex than a new Legacy? Both cars will have the option of a naturaly aspirated and a turbocharged engine. Both will have multiple air bags, ABS, power windows, power locks, keyless entry, stereo systems, windshield wipers (you don't have to use the auto setting), defrosters, and power mirrors. Both cars will have complex engine management computers that can adapt to your driving habits, and drive by wire throttles. Both cars will more than likely have power seats, and heated seats. The Legacy will have the added mechanical complexity of an AWD system no matter what. The BMW doesn't have to have this, as it is optional I find this to be an advantage in BMW's favor as even living in South Dakota I see little point in an AWD car anymore. I will just buy winter tires from now on. The BMW is equipped with Dynamic Stability Control (defeatable by holding down the DSC button for about 5 seconds), which at the moment the Legacy does not widely have, but will be required in the not too distant future. As you can see by any standard both are a complex vehicle, even without getting crazy with the options list. The BMW does have far better brakes, a more fuel efficient engine, that in turbocharged form makes superior power over a wider power band, and generaly better chassis dynamics. Unfortunately most dealers order their cars with lots and lots of options, which add hated complexity, weight, and cost. Fortunately, a good dealer will order a car to your specs without all that crap on it if you don't want it. That is one really nice thing about BMW, you can still order a car to spec. The only things you really need on say a 335i, are the sport package, heated seats, the tranny of your choice (I would go manual on that car too by the way, unless they intorduce an SMG), and maybe leather (although I will admit to liking black leatherette just fine, it wears better than leather and looks good too). The 335i will come standard with power seats, power mirrors, premium sound system, and the interior trim of your choice. Plus all the standard safety features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 RX-8 better and cheaper ftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 RX-8 better and cheaper ftw RX-8 A great chassis in search of an engine that doesn't swill fuel, doesn't swill lubricant, and doesn't have to be wrung out to 6000+ RPM's to make useful thrust. I took quite a few in on trade, and they are fun to drive but damnit sometimes I don't want to have to drive it like I hate it in order to make it go. Don't get me wrong, I love an engine capable of smooth running at 8000-9000 RPM's, but for crying out loud make it have usefull power at low and mid RPM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 But this is exactly the lure - everything the 3 coupe is missing now - visceral thrills - push the car, wring out the speed by force, and it loves every minute of it. This car, the S2000, the MX-5, very few cars like this. They are special. The original M3 is the same class of car. These fast cars, bmw, merc, etc, today that do 0-60 in 5 sec or less, they are just like the old mercs with 6 L engines- built for soulless speed, no effort, they are Woodward avenue cruisers. Not sports cars. i'm telling you the difference, but if you disagree that's fine, I'm telling you my frame of mind, not how you should think. The RX-8 is designed to burn a little oil, and the fuel economy is 1 mpg less than the camry 08, city and highway. I absolutely love it that you and most people completely disregard this car. The joke's on you guys, really, if you think you love to drive sports cars. Remember, we AREN'T racing, we are driving for fun. If you dont' want to drive it like you stole it, we're back to the original issue, which is you don't understand the point of wanting to drive with a clutch. You just dont get it, and that is just fine. most people don't. Lets leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 But this is exactly the lure - everything the 3 coupe is missing now - visceral thrills - push the car, wring out the speed by force, and it loves every minute of it. This car, the S2000, the MX-5, very few cars like this. They are special. The original M3 is the same class of car. These fast cars, bmw, merc, etc, today that do 0-60 in 5 sec or less, they are just like the old mercs with 6 L engines- built for soulless speed, no effort, they are Woodward avenue cruisers. Not sports cars. i'm telling you the difference, but if you disagree that's fine, I'm telling you my frame of mind, not how you should think. The RX-8 is designed to burn a little oil, and the fuel economy is 1 mpg less than the camry 08, city and highway. I absolutely love it that you and most people completely disregard this car. The joke's on you guys, really, if you think you love to drive sports cars. Remember, we AREN'T racing, we are driving for fun. If you dont' want to drive it like you stole it, we're back to the original issue, which is you don't understand the point of wanting to drive with a clutch. You just dont get it, and that is just fine. most people don't. Lets leave it at that. First of all I said that I don't want to have to drive it like I stole it all the time, not that I never wanted to. I can appreciate the joy of wringing out an engine and a car for everything it's worth, never had a problem with it and I never will. However the other 80% of the time I am driving the car, I would like it to be a little more well rounded in the powertrain department. I can take great enjoyment out of an engine that can produce effortless thrust if you are being lazy, and gleefuly rev it's guts out when you decide you really want to push it. That kind of powerplant makes the car more enjoyable more of the time for me. You may have found the new 3 Series to be devoid of that playful demeanor, but I never had any complaints with it in that department. The 3 Series is more of a sport sedan, or small GT oriented car than pure sports car. For pure sports cars from BMW look no further than the M Coupe, I did not get to drive one of those jewels, but I drove the M Roadster a few times. Talk about a lairy harry chested bastard, precise when you want it to be, or you can grab it by the scruff of the neck and drive it by stabbing the throttle and countersteering. I had a grin on my face for hours after driving the last one I was able to. I looked up EPA fuel economy ratings for the RX-8 manual transmission; it is rated at 18 MPG city, and 24 MPG highway. The new Camry with the 3.5L V6 is rated at 22 MPG city, and 31 MPG highway. So I am not quite sure how you arrived at your numbers. I have an acquaintance that has an RX-8 and he is constantly bitching about it's fuel consumption, hopefully you have had better luck with yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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