VDC a.k.a electronic stability control

[jmn69]

I've been driving for 15 years in midwest winters and have been in many precarious situations in ice and snow in both FWD and RWD cars.

 

Yes, The human race survived before seatbelts, airbags, antilock brakes. These were all developed to improve safety as was ESC. Do you drive without any of these things?

 

Hell, we survived before antibiotics and modern anesthesia too. I never said we need to have ESC/VDC to ensure survival of the human race so I'm not sure what your point is. Neither does it have to do with auto snobbery. Reducing the risk of fatal collisions by 30% for me is significant.

[krzyss]

If you crash ESC equipped car it is still your fault.

 

DukeTrout, are you sure that Subaru with its tail happy nature (not good or bad just a nature) and snap throttle lift oversteer is the least that need ESC? I think lack of optional VDC on all models hurts their sales.

 

urfsin, it seems that Subaru VDC rel 2007 is better than VDC rel 2001. Take a ride in new one and tell us if it is still no fun. Waiting for feedback.

 

Krzys

 

PS DukeTrout, does 07 Spec B have off switch for VDC? Does it disable whole system? Permanently or till first breaking? I love ESC but big "off' button is a must.

[rabydanimal]

jmn69, we don't mean to hate on your point of view (ok, I don't) but unfortunately everyone has one. Nobody here likes it when you rag on their precious Legacys without VDC :-D. As I said before I think it's a near superfluous add-on but if I had it I would probably keep it on when driving in poor weather. Yes it spoils your fun but SOA wouldn't put it in cars if it caused more trouble than it helps avoid. Just think of the lawsuits if someone found VDC caused an accident.

 

Anyway, welcome to the boards. You have an awesome car, don't let the lack of VDC get to you.

[rallysquirrel]

It may be hard to swallow for you, but I believe the benefits of having dedicated snow tires outweighs the the benefits of ESC. While ESC does distribute the braking b/w the four tires to help you move in the direction you want to travel, it still doesn't increase the absolute grip of your tires.

 

In other words, if your set on avoiding the same situation but plan on keeping your car, go with your gut and get the tires.

 

Amen. Having the right tires will keep you from needing VDC or ESP ESC whatever you want to call it.

[rallysquirrel]

Just like all cars with ESC turned off, it's NEVER fully turned off.

 

I believe that about 2 months ago, during a rallyX with ESC turned off, the car corrected itself on a tight turn after I applied brakes, but in a way that surprised me. I chalked it up to ESC enabling itself if you're sliding and apply brakes.

I've heard that too about other cars on episodes of Fifth Gear, so maybe that's why I believe this.

[g0ndor]

1300 miles so far... i think the vdc must have kicked on twice - i wasn't able to see the light come on, cause i had to watch the road both times - both were my mistakes. i turned it off the first couple of times i got into the car(off button) but it is on everytime i start, so i gave up. VDC + TCS were some of the deciding factors for me to go with specB vs. GT, and i'd make the same choice again if i had to. But if i had a 07GT i wouldn't trade it for a specB just because of the VDC. It might help some driving mistakes once in a while, but that would only make me a more careless driver. Put on some winter tires, drive with common sense(even without vdc) and worry about the idiots on the road who think their VDC makes them invincible.

[robinlsb]

As I have said before. A poor workman blames his tools. OHHH , if only I had the right tires, Ohh, if only I had this or that. Blaming your mistakes on your tools is just BS. Driving a car, or flying an airplane, captaining a boat , requires one thing, a knowledge of the limitations of yourself and your equipment. When you exceed limitations, you have no one to blame but yourself:icon_mad:

[Suebuhroo]

There are some makes that when you hit the VDC off button, it's off. Lexus on the other hand is always criticized for this, especially in their sport sedans. I believe G35's will be completely off as is the new Corvette. I'm sure there are others as most car rags specifically point out whether the system is "really off." Most systems that leave some form of traction control on are in those vehicles that shouldn't be taking corners in the first place like SUVs, vans, luxury cars.

 

As many have mentioned before, there are many euro cars that have this. I believe Mercedes invented stability control.

 

If VDC is an option, I am getting it because I don't drive the streets of my town like a racetrack so why would I want to turn it off. I have been driving for 17 years, but does that make me a good driver? I don't know, who are we comparing to? I haven't had any accidents that were my fault but I haven't been to a costly driving school either. IMO, I am a good driver for the conditions I face each day, none of which would mean switching off stability control.

 

Everytime I read about someone who switches off the VDC, VSA, or whatever each time they start their car because they "don't need it" I have to laugh, but at the same time feel sorry for the car because it must get beat on to not need VDC. Even more, I also feel sorry for those drivers around them. It's a safety feature, leave it on unless you are at a track.

 

It's a good things the airbags and ABS don't have off switches too.

 

Sorry off my .

[rallysquirrel]

BMW, Audi and other brands when you hit ESC off, it's still not completely OFF.

 

I wish that you could disable ABS when you turn off ESC for some cars like STI and pure sports cars.

[edkwon]

PS DukeTrout, does 07 Spec B have off switch for VDC? Does it disable whole system? Permanently or till first breaking? I love ESC but big "off' button is a must.

 

There is a button to switch off VDC left of the steering wheel, located next to the power mirror controls.

 

Ed

[DukeTrout]

If you crash ESC equipped car it is still your fault.

 

DukeTrout, are you sure that Subaru with its tail happy nature (not good or bad just a nature) and snap throttle lift oversteer is the least that need ESC? I think lack of optional VDC on all models hurts their sales.

 

urfsin, it seems that Subaru VDC rel 2007 is better than VDC rel 2001. Take a ride in new one and tell us if it is still no fun. Waiting for feedback.

 

Krzys

 

PS DukeTrout, does 07 Spec B have off switch for VDC? Does it disable whole system? Permanently or till first breaking? I love ESC but big "off' button is a must.

 

Well, snap oversteer is a function of going too fast around a curve and then driving badly on top of it. Every car on the face of the planet will do so in poor traction at it's limit. The thing about Subies is, that limit is surprisingly high, given the tires and suspension. You can't compare it to a Lotus with slicks.

 

A common "complaint" against Subarus by enthusiasts is the slight understeer in stock form, which is a safe default for the average driver. ESC is of greatest value in tippy SUVs. I'm not sure if it has any value at all in understeer-under-any-conditions mass-market sedans like your typical Accord-Camry-Fusion. It's not like braking one wheel or another is going to stop that car from understeering like a derailed locomotive. What most folks fail to acknowledge is that Subarus carry so much more grip, stock, than most other cars, that ESC really will only come into play under extreme conditions. You can't say a Subaru is hurting without ESC when the ESC would only come into play long after a Saturn (or any other sedan) is in the ditch.

 

Does lack of ESC hurt Subaru's sales? I don't think so. If you polled 100 2007 Legacy (any trim) owners right after purchase, I'd guess that most thought their car had VDC. After all, didn't the IIFHS(sp) rate the Legacy top pick partly because of ESC? They didn't mention that it's only standard on some trims and only optional on others, with some trim levels that cannot have VDC. Besides, anyone who actually bothers to drive one will know pretty quickly how much grip it has compared to other cars in its class.

 

Finally, as Ed mentioned, there is a VDC off switch on the spec.B, but I haven't probed on how "off" OFF is. I probably missed my chance when the snow melted here in town. Given how hard it is to engage in the first place, even with summer tires, I doubt I could empirically prove it one way or the other. If you're ever sipping sake with a Subaru engineer, it would be a good thing to ask.

[jmn69]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Y6z7cXxEE]YouTube - ESP control de estabilidad electronic stability control[/ame]

 

Check out above link. It shows esc in action on BMW 5 series and Audi A4--neither of these cars are slouches in the hadling department. The difference seems very dramatic even in an understeer condition.

 

Of couse this video may be biased because it was made by Bosch-one of the devleopers of esc and abs.

 

John

[AWD_Rules3830]

A common "complaint" against Subarus by enthusiasts is the slight understeer in stock form, which is a safe default for the average driver. ESC is of greatest value in tippy SUVs. I'm not sure if it has any value at all in understeer-under-any-conditions mass-market sedans like your typical Accord-Camry-Fusion. It's not like braking one wheel or another is going to stop that car from understeering like a derailed locomotive. What most folks fail to acknowledge is that Subarus carry so much more grip, stock, than most other cars, that ESC really will only come into play under extreme conditions. You can't say a Subaru is hurting without ESC when the ESC would only come into play long after a Saturn (or any other sedan) is in the ditch.

 

It is pretty amazing how much grip Subaru's manage. Like the Legacy GT has the most softest suspension (rolling wise) but has really fast slalmon times; editors typically never can never figure out why. I mean, a spec b has an equal slalmon time and has a faster 60 time than an Audi S4, which cost 54,000 dollars. The Spec B isn't really that much different than a standard Legacy GT. It also is faster than a G35x, TL, IS 250 AWD, and 3 series.

 

The only thing that can seem to beat it is an Audi A4 2.0T quattro, but it has no were near the power.

 

This is probably a good explanation as to why, even with most stock power wise, the Legacy GT is tearing up the competition in the grand prix series, production class.

 

I know it would be quasi off topic, but if anyone could chime in as to why Subaru's have such great grip, i would like to know lol.

[PhilT]

Drive safely in bad weather and the only thing you have to worry about are the other idiots on the road who have ESC and think they are invincible.

 

 

f1xor3d

[Beanboy]

All those folks talking down stability control. You guys sell your airbags? Can get good money for them, and since you are one with your LGT, you aren't going to get into an accident. Besides, they weigh a fair amount to boot! Hell, remove your bumper beams as well; only add weight to the far corners of the car.

 

Stability control is a win-win, as long as you can defeat it, from the I perspective.

 

Good drivers won't have it cut in, bad drivers won't hurt themselves or others.

 

I wish my LGT had it.

[Scotty]

DSC systems are good when you run out of talent. But they are useless when you don't have any talent to begin with and try to take a 15 mph hairpin at 60 mph.

[NovaWolverine]

All those folks talking down stability control. You guys sell your airbags? Can get good money for them, and since you are one with your LGT, you aren't going to get into an accident. Besides, they weigh a fair amount to boot! Hell, remove your bumper beams as well; only add weight to the far corners of the car.

 

Stability control is a win-win, as long as you can defeat it, from the I perspective.

 

Good drivers won't have it cut in, bad drivers won't hurt themselves or others.

 

I wish my LGT had it.

 

+1. Yeah...we get it, you guys are great drivers and don't need it. As if human errors never occur and what's going on around you can always control. It's a safety feature that you can turn on/off as you wish, I'm glad Legacies are getting them.

[NSFW]

I thought VDC was just a brand name, (like "quattro") for Subaru's stability control flavor-of-the-year. Has it really meant the same thing every year it's been used, since it was introduced? Or has Subaru been refining their system every year and still calling it VDC every year?

 

Seems like people are using it as if it had a well-defined meaning, but I wonder if it really does.

[Scotty]

Not sure if there are trademarks, trademark search engine is down right now. But there are other companies the call their system VDC. VDC, DSC, and ESP are the most common ones.

 

At least it is not as bad as people refering to semi-auto gearboxes by interchanging DSG or SMG. Those ARE registered trademarks and completely different systems.

[Adamaxus]

All those folks talking down stability control. You guys sell your airbags? Can get good money for them, and since you are one with your LGT, you aren't going to get into an accident. Besides, they weigh a fair amount to boot! Hell, remove your bumper beams as well; only add weight to the far corners of the car.

 

Stability control is a win-win, as long as you can defeat it, from the I perspective.

 

Good drivers won't have it cut in, bad drivers won't hurt themselves or others.

 

I wish my LGT had it.

 

that is a terrible comparison. Things like airbags and the bumpers are necessary if you want to LIVE through a crash, you know those things you can still get into even with ESP. You cannot compare a completely passive system like an airbag or bumper to an active, get in your way, drive the vehicle for you system like ESP.

 

As for you "good drivers won't have it cut in", yes they will. if they happen to be doing something they know how to do- maybe taking a turn faster than a normal person would, or maybe kicking your tail out around a corner in the winter or any number of things; the ESP will cut in and stop them from doing these awful awful things.

 

In conclusion, support the Darwin effect!

[Beanboy]

Wait, so there are amazing drivers who say they don't want ESP yet admit they can still get into accidents?

 

They are different; active is much better than passive! Avoiding the crash in the first place for the win! I want all the tools, active and passive (especially defeatable ones), to prevent me from getting into an accident.

 

Did you read where I said as long as it is defeatable? Enjoy the turns faster than a normal person would or tail kicking all you want.

 

However, heading home tired in the dark and cold after a weekend of skiing, I for one will be turning it on.

 

-B

[iyalla]

^+1 Amen! Even a good driver screws up sometimes.

[BOY]

ROFL at this thread. All these folks claiming how bad VDC is, how invasive it is, how hurtful it is to their alleged lap times. Have any of you griping about it actually driven a Subie w/ it? Have you ever actually seen what its limits are? Subaru VDC has been criticized for coming on too late by several (non-performance oreiented) publications. VDC is a very driver friendly system that will allow reasonalbe slip angles and also dial out the dreaded understeer we all know and love. VDC should be standard on ALL subies, even the STI.

[DukeTrout]

^Especially the STI. I see them up on the mountain trying to drive on snow with the stock RE070s! 4 wheels x 0 grip = 0 grip!

[BOY]

^Especially the STI. I see them up on the mountain trying to drive on snow with the stock RE070s! 4 wheels x 0 grip = 0 grip!

 

VDC /> re070+snow... that's where darwinism comes into play