VDC a.k.a electronic stability control

[urfsin]

Wait, how many people here have driven a VDC Subie at the limit? I am telling you I have and it SUCKS. I would rather NOT have VDC than have it. If you want to have fun racing or quick driving it is not for you. I will admit that maybe Subaru has a better 2007 system than the 2001 I had.

 

VDC is good if you want to have an extra magin of safty and don't drive at the limit.

[Faster_nu]

VDC and ESC are part of active suspension control. Active suspensions were Banned in F1 as one driver commented that Even His Mother Could Drive This Car Fast. Or As Michael Andretti stated when you use the Curbing at the apexes of each corner it throws the computer off and your vehicle becomes unstable.

 

For some people it works better than others, as they know the limits of the vehicle and what works and what doesnt. Just as ABS increases stopping distances, yes increases them for most, the vehicle remains steerable, where as at the limits the vehicle may stop quicker in a straight direction but once you input steering its all over the place without the proper modulation.

 

In race track conditions, perhaps one might go faster as a trained and well practiced driver, however with the same car, one without, and one with active suspension, with two untrained drivers, the quicker one around the track will certainly be the active suspension vehicle. Oh and did I mention, they also banned active suspension from F1 as the vehicle speed was to high.

 

I would choose active suspension over a standard vehicle. After driving a Corvette with ASC its very easy to drive to the limit but not over. With ACS off, its a Fun Blast of a car, but sliding around is not fast unless your in a rally.

[DukeTrout]

Wait, how many people here have driven a VDC Subie at the limit? I am telling you I have and it SUCKS. I would rather NOT have VDC than have it. If you want to have fun racing or quick driving it is not for you. I will admit that maybe Subaru has a better 2007 system than the 2001 I had.

 

VDC is good if you want to have an extra magin of safty and don't drive at the limit.

 

Going into this, I was definitely a skeptic about ESC in general. When I test-drove a IS 350, the ESC was noticable at what I consider normal driving and turning it off didn't appear to change anything. Subaru's take on it is completely different, at least in the 07 spec.B.

 

I haven't driven the spec.B at its limit on dry pavement, but at this point I'd rather not find its limit, as I've certainly pushed much further in corners than any other car I've driven and haven't come close to engaging VDC. OTOH, I've found its limit (or rather, the RE050s') at slow speed under adverse conditions and been pleasantly surprised by the leeway VDC provided, the subtle touch of its interference, and its effectiveness. I can't imagine disabling it for on-road driving. On a track or autocross, maybe.

 

Any ESC that still allows a 4-wheel drift is alright by me.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51926

[robinlsb]

Going into this, I was definitely a skeptic about ESC in general. When I test-drove a IS 350, the ESC was noticable at what I consider normal driving and turning it off didn't appear to change anything. Subaru's take on it is completely different, at least in the 07 spec.B.

 

I haven't driven the spec.B at its limit on dry pavement, but at this point I'd rather not find its limit, as I've certainly pushed much further in corners than any other car I've driven and haven't come close to engaging VDC. OTOH, I've found its limit (or rather, the RE050s') at slow speed under adverse conditions and been pleasantly surprised by the leeway VDC provided, the subtle touch of its interference, and its effectiveness. I can't imagine disabling it for on-road driving. On a track or autocross, maybe.

 

Any ESC that still allows a 4-wheel drift is alright by me.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51926

 

You are sooo right. It's just more fun to be out of control, or near death. (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

 

Pilots had the same problem with fly by wire.

[BOY]

Going into this, I was definitely a skeptic about ESC in general. When I test-drove a IS 350, the ESC was noticable at what I consider normal driving and turning it off didn't appear to change anything. Subaru's take on it is completely different, at least in the 07 spec.B.

 

I haven't driven the spec.B at its limit on dry pavement, but at this point I'd rather not find its limit, as I've certainly pushed much further in corners than any other car I've driven and haven't come close to engaging VDC. OTOH, I've found its limit (or rather, the RE050s') at slow speed under adverse conditions and been pleasantly surprised by the leeway VDC provided, the subtle touch of its interference, and its effectiveness. I can't imagine disabling it for on-road driving. On a track or autocross, maybe.

 

Any ESC that still allows a 4-wheel drift is alright by me.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51926

 

Very well said, my thoughts exactly! The intrusive systems (MB, Lexus, BMW, Audo, etc) are down right horible even when "off". I've had an SLK completely stuck in my dealership p-lot trying to get up a hill so small you can't see it... ESC was OFF but the TCS killed the engine's power... 3 guys had to push it in the snow. I've also witnessed a 5-series that couldn't get up an overpass after stopping for traffic (also in the snow), a cop helped push him to the shoulder to clear the way for traffic. VDC is no such animal and very driver focused. Also, urfsin... modern VDC is much better than the original VDC

[Scotty]

Pilots had the same problem with fly by wire.

 

Only if you drive a bus. Yes there is the whole Airbus vs. Boeing debate with fly by wire systems. During flight testing, the flight envelope parameters are established. If you exceed those parameters, you depart from controlled flight. Airbus won't let you exceed those parameters. If the plane can only pitch x degrees per sec, more deflection of the elevators won't result in higher pitch rate so it won't let you try to go beyond it. Boeing believes the pilot is in control and will warn you as you reach the flight envelope, but will allow you to exceed it even though the plane cannot handle it. But with any fly by wire system, if you get into a spin and can't get out of it, simply let go of the controls and the computer will correct the spin for you because the computer can correct fast than you can.

[robinlsb]

Non fly by wire, in a spin, do the same thing. Or so I have found out!!!! At least, in a good machine.

[robinlsb]

when pilots can't agree, you see the problem.

[krzyss]

I've also witnessed a 5-series that couldn't get up an overpass after stopping for traffic (also in the snow), a cop helped push him to the shoulder to clear the way for traffic.

 

Somehow I suspect they had summer tires.

 

What about SLK. Did it have summer tires too?

 

Do you prefer going nowhere or sliding off the crown of the road?

 

Krzys

 

PS I do not think that BMW systems are very intrusive.

[BOY]

Somehow I suspect they had summer tires.

 

What about SLK. Did it have summer tires too?

 

Do you prefer going nowhere or sliding off the crown of the road?

 

Krzys

 

PS I do not think that BMW systems are very intrusive.

 

It is possible for the 5 series, the SLK had all seasons on it.

[Scotty]

when pilots can't agree, you see the problem.

 

It's not the pilots that can't agree, it's the engineers. Since we, engineers, are highly opinionated people, it's an endless debate. The Airbus vs. Boeing goes beyond the fly by wire system. Airbus' goal is to relegate the pilot to managerial duties and to hit the go button. Currently Airbus puts the stick somewhat out of reach of the Captain and on his left side. Their ultimate goal is to have the plane do everything on it's own and the pilot sits there and watches. But Airbus is French.

 

Non-fly by wire planes do correct themselves because they are designed to be stable on it's own. New fighters are designed to be completely unstable so that they can literally turn on a dime. The computer is the only thing that is keeping it up in the air, nose first.

 

As for cars, Subaru hasn't fully tapped into it's ability with a stability control system. All they need is to integrate the active diffs from the <2004 WRC cars. Instead of the computer applying brakes, it transfer power. While the car won't want to go sideways, it'll drive like it's cornering on rails.

[krzyss]

There goes my theory that it was caused by improper tires.

 

Krzys

[c_wraith]

My experiences are pretty minimal with the VDC system. I've never seen the light come on. It probably has, once, but I was too busy watching the ditch approaching to pay attention to any light on the dash.

 

I went into a corner too fast a while back. I didn't realize it was nearly as sharp as it was, nor did I realize that there was a bigger layer of sand in that corner than anywhere else on the road. Even the 10 mph under the speed limit I was going was too fast for those conditions, but I'd never been on the road before. Live and learn. The car recovered beautifully just before the ditch, and I'm sure the VDC system played a part in that.

 

Other than that... I've managed small 4-wheel drifts on gravel and wet pavement, and never felt any interference from the system. It seems fine for normal driving, even with the occasional short intentional slide. And that's when it's turned on. As long as turning it off actually turns it off, I can't see any reason why anyone would complain about having it.

[Adamaxus]

bah..nevermind.

[Faster_nu]

Wow this thread got interesting.

 

How many people have ever followed anyone around a corner as fast as you could go????? The real problem is that as the cars get better we get faster and it sucks trying to find a place thats fun to drive without running into some person that thinks they can only go 5mph around a corner when they are on their cell phone.

 

I am for anything that will make someone safer. I have met alot of people that say they can drive only to be frustrated at the track as to why they just can't seem to go fast. Oh forgot that rubbing is racing! Not with my LGT thanks.

 

Active suspension worked for F1, infact it worked so good for F1 it was banned. Anyones LGT close to a F1 car? Ever see a F1 car launch? Thats why they banned Traction control also - unfair advantage.

 

Hurley Haywood ran a Audi in the transam series and they banned it as it was awd and a unfair advantage. Perhaps the only real sports cars are rear wheel drive and no Limited Slip Differential?

 

Ill take a Subbie with all the electronics and ESC AND VDC and ABCD!

[Scotty]

Active suspension didn't get banned because it was an unfair advantage. It was banned because roughly every 10 years, Bernie and the FIA decides to take many steps back in technology. When they banned active suspension, traction control and ABS went with it. Active suspension back then wasn't that big of a deal because everyone had it too so no one had a clear advantage. That's the same reason why traction control made it's way back to F1 because the engineers were able to develop an undetectable pseudo traction control. FIA couldn't find it so they just allowed everyone to have it, though no launch control.

[Faster_nu]

Scotty,

Ok the politics of F1 are, well interesting to say the least. But at one point F1 was made up of dozens of individual teams and the technology aspect that had taken over really left a lot of lesser teams out of the race. The banning of active suspension technology allowed, teams with lower funding to actually compete, and for drivers to really be drivers.

In the real world though, I have not met many race drivers off the track. I would prefer active suspension because I don’t really trust most of the drivers on the road and would like some help to keep me safe.

[jmn69]

well within 3-4 years all subies and all new vehicles will have vdc/abs just like they all have abs and head airbags now.

[KGreb]

I work on development of some of the chips which are found inside the majority of "ESP" systems. The stunning survivability numbers everyone is quoting were from a 15 year study recently published by Daimler. NHTSA has published similar data recently. I believe the systems are mandated for all light vehicles by MY2012, though you will likely see some delays in adoption.

 

My only personal experience with an ESP system occurred last year in Munich. I had a rental C-class Benz with summer tires. A rare late spring snow storm mid day gave me a very interesting evening commute. Without the ESP system, I would have been stuck like many of the cars abandoned on the side of the road. Definitely not as good as AWD in that situation, but it did make a significant difference.

[g0ndor]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tSy5tHtT1g]YouTube - Fifth Gear - Bosch ABS, TC, and VSC[/ame]

 

fifth gear tests...

[ets]

Just came back from ice track. It is -18 C here and great dry ice. I should say VDC behaves really nice. Not intrusive at all. I do not feel this car very well yet, it has just 300 km on odometer, so it is really hard to tell if VDCoff is really off but i could freely spin without losing rpm or feeling any brake action. Another car I drove on same track was Saab 9-3 and it for sure corrected me even with ESP off.

I'm not going to jump into good/bad flame here, just want to state, that Spec.B VDC is really well tuned. If I had 4 break pedals for each wheel separately, and same number of legs to control them I could pretend I can compete with well configured ESP/VDC. But as I have limited leg count I'm just looking for adequate and well configured computer control.

[AWD_Rules3830]

 

fifth gear tests...

 

interesting.

[jmn69]

Going to try and look into those studies some more. Seems like too many confounding variables.

 

Maybe the 30% increased survival is due to other factors like inproved saftey features in the newer cars with ESP compared to the older cars without-such as side and head airbags and more stringent crash protection standards.

 

And perhaps the decrease in accidents could be due to improved handling and improved tire technology in the newer cars with ESP? Does anybody know how they could have controlled for all these variables?

[fzanetti]

 

fifth gear tests...

 

Great video man!!!

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[Faster_nu]

Excellent Video.