Big Brakes

[PimpFro]

Holy crap, today i went to COBB tuning because i noticed while i was driving by that they had changed their rims on their pearl white LGT. I park next to theirs and look as i get outta my car and notice the big brake kit that works for the WRX on the car. they put the silver calipers on instead of the black ones and it looks great. not really sure what rims they had but they looked very nice and they had em wrapped with the P-Zero's. When i talked to them they said they will be updating their site with prices and all for the kit. i can tell you this for my go ast i also want stop fast so you can be expecting me to buy these as soon as possibe

[Xenonk]

I am waiting on [url]www.endlessusa.com[/url] instead Keefe

[PimpFro]

Wow! which kit are you going for??

[Xenonk]

I am deciding either to go REAL big or stick with OEM sizing and cram in the biggest set of calipers under the stock rims.. (which is already hard to do). The problem is that I have 3 sets of 17" rims for the GT.. so I would actually have to sell all of them instead since it will be useless for me to keep them.. plus, if I were to go with bigger brakes, I would not be eligible to compete in SCCA Solo2 E-Street Prepared (ESP) class racing.. I would have to run in Street Modified (SM). The good thing is that if I goto the track with the bigger brakes, I can out-brake a lot more than what I already did with the stock brakes. Decisions... Keefe

[AJChenMPH]

Just a word of caution -- don't get fooled into thinking that getting a BBK will be the end-all to braking issues. My current car is about 200 lbs heavier than an LGT; the front brake rotors are the same size (12.3") but the rears are smaller (9.6" vs. the LGT's 11.3") and are solid rotors as opposed to the vented rotors on the LGT, and I'm running stock calipers all around. Nevertheless, with Hawk HP+ pads, I was able to pretty much go fade-free at Watkins Glen, and could even outbrake an E30 BMW M3 going into the 90 at the Glen. Pads and tires are the best stopping upgrades you could make first -- if you find yourself still without enough brakes, THEN go with a BBK. Unless your car is a show car. Then it's a whole different ballgame. Just my $0.02. Andy

[gtguy]

Not only that, but if you read Cobb's writeup of the Legacy's stock brakes, they say that they are very good, and the BBK would come in handy only if you're doing some serious competitive work (track days, that is...not auto-x). BBKs do look cool, which is much of their attraction. But were I considering such things, unless the Cobb kit was dirt-cheap, I'd just get some of the Legacy Brembos, which are identical to those that come on the STi. More bling with the gold calipers. Kevin

[Xenonk]

Andy, I am thinking of the exact same thing as you are. I've been on the track enough times to know that pads, fluids, and a good set of tires go a long way. But after my small experience with the GT at the track, I did notice that the car is just that much heavier going into the turn than my WRX (which is about a 350 lbs difference). It's unfortunate right now that no one has yet made a set of performance pads for the GT. I am sending my backing plates in pretty soon to get some new compounds made that are rotor friendly. A set of slotted brakes should also help scrape away the pad and to keep it from glazing. It's not just the speed that kills the brakes, it's the mass that the brakes has to stop. Keefe

[PimpFro]

[quote name='gtguy']Not only that, but if you read Cobb's writeup of the Legacy's stock brakes, they say that they are very good, and the BBK would come in handy only if you're doing some serious competitive work (track days, that is...not auto-x). BBKs do look cool, which is much of their attraction. But were I considering such things, unless the Cobb kit was dirt-cheap, I'd just get some of the Legacy Brembos, which are identical to those that come on the STi. More bling with the gold calipers. Kevin[/QUOTE] well i will tell you they are not cheap very not cheap. i kinda want them to see how big of a difference they make, cause already thanks to idiot drivers here in utah i have had to step hard on those things. everything will be traveling fine then some jerk with their left blinker on decides they wanna go right and your brakes get all the strain to stop you from their stupid....mutter mutter..... anyways you get the point. i have noticed that these brakes basically stop on a dime but i dunno i kinda want my 9 cents back for change. but hey if you have any more info on those BBK please let me know the prices i was quoted were as follows Front: (332mm) : 1895.00 Rear (328mm) : 2395.00 it comes in Silver or black I kinda want the silver ones cause they look close to stock on color and thats what i like is a very close to stock look that is the reason i dont go for the brembro kit, even though i know the STI has em.....dont they?

[ih8vtec13]

will the breaks void any warnties? thats the one of the few things i miss about my 95 camry le some nice slotted rotors inside 17s

[RobY]

[quote name='PimpFro']well i will tell you they are not cheap very not cheap. i kinda want them to see how big of a difference they make, cause already thanks to idiot drivers here in utah i have had to step hard on those things. everything will be traveling fine then some jerk with their left blinker on decides they wanna go right and your brakes get all the strain to stop you from their stupid....mutter mutter..... anyways you get the point. i have noticed that these brakes basically stop on a dime but i dunno i kinda want my 9 cents back for change. but hey if you have any more info on those BBK please let me know the prices i was quoted were as follows Front: (332mm) : 1895.00 Rear (328mm) : 2395.00 it comes in Silver or black I kinda want the silver ones cause they look close to stock on color and thats what i like is a very close to stock look that is the reason i dont go for the brembro kit, even though i know the STI has em.....dont they?[/QUOTE] Its tires that determine ultimate stopping distances. For quick panic stops they wont make much of a diffrence. The stockers are already capable of arresting the tires to beyond its traction capabilities. Probably the only reason you would want a BBK is because you are doing some serious racing and you need fade resistance and better modulation. One pass stoping distances depend SOLELY on your tires. If you want shorter stopping distances get tires. A BBK with crappy tires will net you the exact same stoping distances as the stock Brakes with crappy tires.

[Xenonk]

[quote name='ih8vtec13']will the breaks void any warnties? thats the one of the few things i miss about my 95 camry le some nice slotted rotors inside 17s[/QUOTE] I am sure it would void the warranty if you upgrade to non-stock.. you might get away with STi Brembo calipers on the GT, but something tells me "if the car not sold as-is or installed by the dealer, then it's not going to be covered by the warranty." Keefe

[ih8vtec13]

[quote name='Xenonk']I am sure it would void the warranty if you upgrade to non-stock.. you might get away with STi Brembo calipers on the GT, but something tells me "if the car not sold as-is or installed by the dealer, then it's not going to be covered by the warranty." Keefe[/QUOTE] i mean like any warrenties other then the breaks

[apexjapan]

Any sort of brake caliper kits, even Brembo, will void the warranty on your braking system. It's a no-brainer in the case of calipers, no way would your subaru dealer warranty any other parts on there. And then how they effect your rotors, pads, and brake fluid systems is also impossible for them to warranty. Ditto for ABS - one of the reasons many aftermarket braking systems actually increase braking distance is because they mess up the ABS tuning. When it comes to braking, the four areas that matter the most are: Swept area Rotor size Brake pad material Tires Not in any particular order. Subaru already addressed 95% of concerns by upping the size of the brake pads and rotors - this increases the swept area (amount of pad on the rotor) and the fade resistance (size of the rotor to dissipate heat). The main weakness right now is the pad material, which isn't too hot over in America, it sounds like. Oh, and the tires, which don't have enough traction to use those big brakes well at all. You would get far more for your money from a decent set of tires than you would from brake calipers. That's the thing - 4-pot brake calipers are usually bought because they look good. People assume they do better braking, but they really don't, they simply increase caliper rigidity and fade resistance. It's just that most people put in better brake pads, brake lines and fluid at the same time - and it's those latter three things that really increase braking performance. When the calipers allow for bigger brake pads which increase swept area, you will see some gains there. But I've raced the heavier twin turbo Legacy with smaller rotors and pads, with the heavy cast iron 4-pots from Subaru, and never had a problem with brakes even at high speed circuits such as twin ring motegi. That's because I did have the other upgrades - lines, fluid, pads, rotors - done, and that's what is necessary for performance braking. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[Jimbo]

How are the LGT brakes different from the ones on my OBXT?

[Xenonk]

Paul, Do you happen to know if the Non-Brembo JDM brakes are the same as the USDM one? If they are the same, do you know any JDM brake pads that are way better than say a set of stock pads.. I am hoping for something that is at the level for Gymkhana/LIGHT Track use with no need for warm-up time.. and I would also like to know if you know any dedicated track pad that is rotor-friendly (non-scoring) track pads for USDM/JDM-non-Brembo type calipers? Any help on that is appreciated. Keefe

[Ken S]

[quote name='Jimbo']How are the LGT brakes different from the ones on my OBXT?[/QUOTE] GT brakes: [b]12.3"[/b] vented discs (front), [b]11.3" vented[/b] discs (rear) OB brakes: [b]11.5"[/b] vented discs (front), [b]10.6" solid[/b] discs (rear) Ken

[gtguy]

[quote name='apexjapan']Any sort of brake caliper kits, even Brembo, will void the warranty on your braking system. It's a no-brainer in the case of calipers, no way would your subaru dealer warranty any other parts on there. And then how they effect your rotors, pads, and brake fluid systems is also impossible for them to warranty. Ditto for ABS - one of the reasons many aftermarket braking systems actually increase braking distance is because they mess up the ABS tuning. When it comes to braking, the four areas that matter the most are: Swept area Rotor size Brake pad material Tires Not in any particular order. Subaru already addressed 95% of concerns by upping the size of the brake pads and rotors - this increases the swept area (amount of pad on the rotor) and the fade resistance (size of the rotor to dissipate heat). The main weakness right now is the pad material, which isn't too hot over in America, it sounds like. Oh, and the tires, which don't have enough traction to use those big brakes well at all. You would get far more for your money from a decent set of tires than you would from brake calipers. That's the thing - 4-pot brake calipers are usually bought because they look good. People assume they do better braking, but they really don't, they simply increase caliper rigidity and fade resistance. It's just that most people put in better brake pads, brake lines and fluid at the same time - and it's those latter three things that really increase braking performance. When the calipers allow for bigger brake pads which increase swept area, you will see some gains there. But I've raced the heavier twin turbo Legacy with smaller rotors and pads, with the heavy cast iron 4-pots from Subaru, and never had a problem with brakes even at high speed circuits such as twin ring motegi. That's because I did have the other upgrades - lines, fluid, pads, rotors - done, and that's what is necessary for performance braking. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url][/QUOTE] Preach on, brother Paul, and amen! Kevin

[racerdave]

Yes, it's good to help people learn what really makes a difference in braking systems, not just the "bling." With minor changes (pads, fluid, lines, tires) the Legacy shouldn't leave anyone complaining about bad brakes.

[Xenonk]

The real bling is behind ZMI rotors if they are going make the car just for show. For those who never seen what ZMIs look like, here they are: [url]http://www.bavauto.com/se1.asp?dept_id=216[/url] [img]http://www.bavauto.com/assets/imglib500/zmi-brake-kit.jpg[/img] "Stop your BMW and traffic with these titanium brakes! This is the brake kit James Bond would use (if he still drove a BMW). By simply bolting on this ZMI brake system, you’ll experience not only superior stopping power but also better handling and faster acceleration. The rotors are made from titanium for superior strength, better heat dispersion and amazing weight savings. (Example: for a 97 M3, a 13” rotor weighs about 5 lb. vs. 17 lb. for stock) The billet aluminum calipers (7 lb. vs. 12 lb. for stock) feature internal porting for safer fluid transfer. Kit also includes brackets, stainless steel brake lines, Mintex performance pads and a cool, aluminum case. " COST: ZMI Titanium Brake Kit - Front & Rear = $7,994.95 NOTE: THESE ARE FOR SHOW, THEY WILL SUCK WHEN USED FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING. THAT IS WHY BMW went back to use to cast iron and Porsche uses Ceramic Carbon for GT cars. Keefe

[ih8vtec13]

[quote name='Xenonk']The real bling is behind ZMI rotors if they are going make the car just for show. For those who never seen what ZMIs look like, here they are: [url]http://worxtuning.com/ZMI.htm[/url] [url]http://www.bavauto.com/se1.asp?dept_id=216[/url] [img]http://www.corral.net/photopost/data/532/1414IMG_5083-med.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.bavauto.com/assets/imglib500/zmi-brake-kit.jpg[/img] "Stop your BMW and traffic with these titanium brakes! This is the brake kit James Bond would use (if he still drove a BMW). By simply bolting on this ZMI brake system, you’ll experience not only superior stopping power but also better handling and faster acceleration. The rotors are made from titanium for superior strength, better heat dispersion and amazing weight savings. (Example: for a 97 M3, a 13” rotor weighs about 5 lb. vs. 17 lb. for stock) The billet aluminum calipers (7 lb. vs. 12 lb. for stock) feature internal porting for safer fluid transfer. Kit also includes brackets, stainless steel brake lines, Mintex performance pads and a cool, aluminum case. " COST: ZMI Titanium Brake Kit - Front & Rear = $7,994.95 NOTE: THESE ARE FOR SHOW, THEY WILL SUCK WHEN USED FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING. THAT IS WHY BMW went back to use to cast iron and Porsche uses Ceramic Carbon for GT cars. Keefe[/QUOTE] that is the sickest looking brake kit i have ever seen

[Jimbo]

[quote name='Ken S']GT brakes: [b]12.3"[/b] vented discs (front), [b]11.3" vented[/b] discs (rear) OB brakes: [b]11.5"[/b] vented discs (front), [b]10.6" solid[/b] discs (rear) Ken[/QUOTE] Will GT brakes fit on the OBXT, any changes required? If so would be worthwhile to buy them off someone who was upgrading their LGT brakes to larger ones?

[Xenonk]

well, also dont forget to check for wheel clearance issues. Keefe

[apexjapan]

[quote name='Xenonk']Paul, Do you happen to know if the Non-Brembo JDM brakes are the same as the USDM one? If they are the same, do you know any JDM brake pads that are way better than say a set of stock pads.. I am hoping for something that is at the level for Gymkhana/LIGHT Track use with no need for warm-up time.. and I would also like to know if you know any dedicated track pad that is rotor-friendly (non-scoring) track pads for USDM/JDM-non-Brembo type calipers? Any help on that is appreciated. Keefe[/QUOTE] The brakes are the same, so finding pads will not be too hard. Let me chase that information down. I know they are out there, but it'll be separating the dross from the gold that is the tough part. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[Xenonk]

PAUL! THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR CONFIRMING THAT! At least I know what to look for in the JDM market for brake pads, whatever you can find I appreciate it!! Keefe

[PimpFro]

[quote name='apexjapan']Any sort of brake caliper kits, even Brembo, will void the warranty on your braking system. It's a no-brainer in the case of calipers, no way would your subaru dealer warranty any other parts on there. And then how they effect your rotors, pads, and brake fluid systems is also impossible for them to warranty. Ditto for ABS - one of the reasons many aftermarket braking systems actually increase braking distance is because they mess up the ABS tuning. When it comes to braking, the four areas that matter the most are: Swept area Rotor size Brake pad material Tires Not in any particular order. Subaru already addressed 95% of concerns by upping the size of the brake pads and rotors - this increases the swept area (amount of pad on the rotor) and the fade resistance (size of the rotor to dissipate heat). The main weakness right now is the pad material, which isn't too hot over in America, it sounds like. Oh, and the tires, which don't have enough traction to use those big brakes well at all. You would get far more for your money from a decent set of tires than you would from brake calipers. That's the thing - 4-pot brake calipers are usually bought because they look good. People assume they do better braking, but they really don't, they simply increase caliper rigidity and fade resistance. It's just that most people put in better brake pads, brake lines and fluid at the same time - and it's those latter three things that really increase braking performance. When the calipers allow for bigger brake pads which increase swept area, you will see some gains there. But I've raced the heavier twin turbo Legacy with smaller rotors and pads, with the heavy cast iron 4-pots from Subaru, and never had a problem with brakes even at high speed circuits such as twin ring motegi. That's because I did have the other upgrades - lines, fluid, pads, rotors - done, and that's what is necessary for performance braking. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url][/QUOTE] Thanks a bunch man for the info well i can tell you i am not gonna be wasting any money to just void my warranty, possibly mess up my ABS and get a minor gain in braking power. thanks man. now i notice that you were helping Xenonk get better pads, i would definetly like to hear about those too. thanks for you help again.