For "Da Onkel", reply about 5mt wagons from SOA

[DukeTrout]

Classic example of "chasing the market" instead of anticipating it.

[Guest]

Classic example of "chasing the market" instead of anticipating it.

 

Exactly. This is not a recipe for a winning strategy. I hope they will have some bright moments in the future, or if not, they will go under.

 

I really do keep my fingers crossed for Subaru diesels in the U.S. market.

[Fat Charlie]

I didn't contact SOA through unclemat's link immediately because they had a spot to enter my VIN. That's in my work computer, so I waited. They can think what they want about a spate of angry emails from here, but they know that they sold that car to me. I just sent them back another survey a few months ago. All else being equal, people only get manuals if they care. What do they have here? Current customers who care about the product who are going elsewhere for their next purchase.

 

I still remember seeing my first WRX ad. Damn, I wanted one. Wanted one, wanted one, wanted one. Then a few months before I was ready to buy one, the 05s came out. I slid into the Legacy in a heartbeat. Years of yearning, months of waiting, a few hours on the internet and phone. Not too many people are genuinely happy with their cars, but I hop out of mine with a smile every day. Now they don't want my money any more.

 

My wife hates driving. When I met her, she didn't know that her 84 K-car was a POS. The first "car" she actually liked was her Xterra. Yay. At least I got her hooked on MTs. Even she got an evil grin the first time she drove my GT.

 

SUVs are a bad loophole (PT Cruisers are light trucks? WTF?) that's bound to close. Subaru's wagons are iconic. They could be king of the wagons when the trend shifts, but they'd rather try to be halfhearted SUVs. It's sad to watch.

[P06781]

[

 

I really do keep my fingers crossed for Subaru diesels in the U.S. market.

 

So do I , I love the mpg of my jetta tdi but need the awd.

Jim

[Vimy101]

I didn't contact SOA through unclemat's link immediately because they had a spot to enter my VIN. That's in my work computer, so I waited. They can think what they want about a spate of angry emails from here, but they know that they sold that car to me. I just sent them back another survey a few months ago. All else being equal, people only get manuals if they care. What do they have here? Current customers who care about the product who are going elsewhere for their next purchase.

 

I still remember seeing my first WRX ad. Damn, I wanted one. Wanted one, wanted one, wanted one. Then a few months before I was ready to buy one, the 05s came out. I slid into the Legacy in a heartbeat. Years of yearning, months of waiting, a few hours on the internet and phone. Not too many people are genuinely happy with their cars, but I hop out of mine with a smile every day. Now they don't want my money any more.

 

My wife hates driving. When I met her, she didn't know that her 84 K-car was a POS. The first "car" she actually liked was her Xterra. Yay. At least I got her hooked on MTs. Even she got an evil grin the first time she drove my GT.

 

SUVs are a bad loophole (PT Cruisers are light trucks? WTF?) that's bound to close. Subaru's wagons are iconic. They could be king of the wagons when the trend shifts, but they'd rather try to be halfhearted SUVs. It's sad to watch.

 

Nice post.

[Guest]

Nice post.

 

+1

 

Fat Charlie and MtnSub are my two favorite wagonistas!

[Fat Charlie]

You can call me a wagonista. I'm really just a lazy guy who wants to use the best tool for the job. I can only afford one car, so it's got to be a veritable Victorinox (WARNING: C2H4OH LEVEL DANGEROUSLY HIGH). I want a car that does everything. My GT wagon comes close. With fresh snow tires, RWD is fine. I'm still running the factory rubber at 45K. I've had two freakish spinouts in the snow with two different FWD cars, so AWD was on my list. You can drive anything spiritedly, but power makes a lot of things possible- especially when moving through traffic. You can't put the kids and the dogs in the back seat together and you can't put either in the trunk, so it's got to be a wagon. I want the car to do what I tell it to do when I tell it to do it, so it's got to have a manual.

 

At my budget, it was a Legacy. All the stuff we need for the baby means an Impreza wouldn't cut it. Luckily, they were selling the Legacy here that year. I'm offended that they stopped offering it. It doesn't cost anything to have it available for order. Some dealerships will order a few. Some customers will order some more. It offends me that we're exporting the package I want and they won't sell it here.

 

I hate stupidity and inefficiency, especially when it costs me. I was lucky to get my car. Now they won't sell it here, so when I need another one I have to look to Europe. It hurts me to see a great product denied to us by one of the lowest of life forms, car salesmen. The factory's making it, there are customers who want it. Why are these car salesmen refusing to sell cars? Sure, the Outback has a higher margin, but I'm not an Outback customer. I'm not an automatic customer. I'm apparently not a Subaru customer any more, either. Manuals don't dilute the market, they attract customers.

 

Sorry, guys. I hadn't known that they dropped the manual in my car until the last couple of days. While it feels neat to think of my car as a collector's item, I'm still upset.

[Vimy101]

^ Another good post. Many of my same thought processes except for the kids and dog so I was shopping sedans. Also, my budget topped out at $40k. However, the deal I found for my Spec.B could not be beat.

 

Its ironic that I got my car because the LGT isn't world beater when it comes to sales figures (read demand) but that same lack of demand will drive (pardon the pun) you awat from the brand.

 

Also, you don't have to go to Europe. Canada is right there. All laws are harmonized. Some Canadians have taken advantage of exchange rates to buy US market vehicles. Their import stories will (should) mirror yours if you decide to stay with the brand. However, you're probably good to go for 200k so you have some years to go before you even have to start thinking about "Fat Charlie's" next fine ride.

[Max Rebo]

Also, you don't have to go to Europe. Canada is right there. All laws are harmonized. Some Canadians have taken advantage of exchange rates to buy US market vehicles. Their import stories will (should) mirror yours if you decide to stay with the brand.

 

Are you sure about that? I recall that the VW R32 was not sold in Canada due to some stupid regulations they had. It was not federalized for sale.

 

Maybe things have changed in the past couple of years?

[DKB_SATX]

More philistines... the writer seems to be shocked that there is such a thing as a high-performance wagon (Audi RS6 passing a 911 on the Nurburgring.) Couldn't help it, I had to reply.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/09/video-nurburgring-in-8-29-in-a-wagon/

[Vimy101]

Are you sure about that? I recall that the VW R32 was not sold in Canada due to some stupid regulations they had. It was not federalized for sale.

 

Maybe things have changed in the past couple of years?

 

Cars produced in NA are good for all NA markets. The VW I'm assuming is an import.

[Max Rebo]

Ah... I didn't consider that. Even if VW/Audi had to federalize according to country, I can't imagine why there would be different requirements between the US and Canada, whereas a Subaru built in the US meets both US *and* Canada regulations?

 

It's not making a lot of sense to me at the moment...

 

There has to be something we're missing when comparing the two automakers and the criteria to meet regulations.

[red beast]

ex-squeeze me.

 

i got the 3.0r because i didn't want a suv and i wanted the height.

 

it gets through snow and some flooded areas while still retaining some cornering ability that big, fat, slob suv's lack.

 

 

plus there are some mods to make it better.

 

 

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/423426/rbarty1web.jpg

[coxx]

love that car Red Beast. It's so different. I hardly ever see those

[tytek]

i love my wagon, but i might get a sedan after the suby expires; 335i here i come!

[red beast]

love that car Red Beast. It's so different. I hardly ever see those

 

so does that mean it will go up in value?

 

no more red

 

"3.0r" badge for 1 year

 

guessing a 100 reds made for 2005?

[Vimy101]

Ah... I didn't consider that. Even if VW/Audi had to federalize according to country, I can't imagine why there would be different requirements between the US and Canada, whereas a Subaru built in the US meets both US *and* Canada regulations?

 

It's not making a lot of sense to me at the moment...

 

There has to be something we're missing when comparing the two automakers and the criteria to meet regulations.

 

That's just the way things work out. There could be many reasons for it

but what they are I have no idea. Suffice to say that cars produced in NA

(Canada, US, Mexico) that meet emmision requirements can be sold

in any NA country.

[Guest]

I exchanged several e-mails today with a SOA representative. Let me summarize what I 've gathered from the correspondence:

 

1. SOA did "intense" research and concluded there is no market for Legacy GT wagon w/manual transmission. They know the market very well and analyzed it very accurately.

 

2. They also decided that given limited numbers of 2.5i wagons w/manual it is not worth (sic!!!) to list it on their website and they think it is enough to list it in their printed brochure .

 

3. The fact that SIA manfactures LGT wagon 5mt is irrelevant to SOA - it does not make it any less expensive to offer on the U.S. market. Subaru of Canada orders them and pays for them.

 

4. If not the Outback, the Legacy would have been long gone.

 

5. Perhaps one day market may change and Outback will not be as popular and they will find market for Legacy.

 

6. While there have been no official decision of discontinuing LGT wagon for MY2008 from several pharses I can infer they will actually kill it.

 

I think Jon from CT is right as far as Legacy wagon demise is concerened. However another insider - Kostamojen - claims otherwise.

 

Bottom line - there is no hope for LGT MT wagon - unless some corporate maverick from Japan forces them to sell Legacy STI. But that most likely will be sedan anyway. Yes, I think the only way to convenice them is to really to keep telling them people would buy a premium wagon and pay a premium price accordingly.

[IwannaSportSedan]

These sound like justifications to me. Something they have convinced themselves of.

 

Without the Outback, the Legacy would be gone??? What kind of statement is that?

 

Without the Outback and Legacy, what would they sell besides WRX?

 

Do they honestly think that we are stupid enough to belieive that Subaru would not sell a mid-size car platform in this country, at all?

 

Intense market research.... sure. No one here is claiming that the MT Legacy GT Wagon is going to be a sales leader, but there are obviously people who are pissed off, and probably buying volvos instead. Lies, damned lies, and statistics...

 

The polls predicted a landslide senate race in Virginia, too, and it was less than 8000 votes out of over 2 million cast that made the difference. Statistics were wrong, no matter who puts how much faith in them.

 

Sure... manufacturing costs don't mean anything to SOA vs SOC... it's all that marketing material and advertizing cost that went into the Legacy GT wagon with a manual transmission that made it too damn expensive to offer in the US. BS.

 

Perhaps, and "maybe someday" don't get back lost sales. perhaps maybe if they offered a blue Legacy GT with a black interior they would have sold me a new one. Perhaps didn't happen, and they didn't get my money. not potential profit lost. REAL REVENUE lost.

 

Reacting to a changing market means you are always a step behind. Creating demand takes work, and money, and if you do it right, it makes you money in return. I am not saying that the 5MT GT wagon would do that. But it is indicative of SOA's whole approach to selling cars in the US. Just enough to get by.

 

If they go one step further and cut off the Legacy wagon altogether... I would have no reservation of hope for the corporate culture at SOA being able to offer any truly comprehensive and complete product line. I still hold to the notion that 2005 was a banner model year, with the introduction of the new body style turbocharged Legacy. It has gone down hill ever since.

 

 

Slightly off topic...

Red Beast's car is kickin'. Now that I own one that color... I kinda want to put the outback body kit on my lowered turbo Legacy; with red side sills and a JDM corazon or K2 Riez bumper set with fender flares. Lowered, stg-2 Turbo, manual transmission "widebody" GRP Legacy FTW

[Guest]

Subaru does not make product decisions without doing the research first.

We do conduct intense research, market analysis, focus groups, surveys,

customer/dealer feedback, previous model years' sales, etc. We know the

market because we have the facts to evaluate it precisely and accurately.

The production of the 5MT Legacy Wagon at SIA does not make it any less of

n expense for us to offer it in the U.S. Subaru Canada bears the expense of

production of that vehicle, not Subaru of America. If they choose to offer this

model in their market, that would be their individual business decision, and

along with that, at their own expense.

Nobody here at Subaru has anything bad to say about the Legacy model.

We all love it dearly. Unfortunately, business needs sometimes necessitate

very difficult decisions. Without these decisions, we would not be able to

stay in business.

On a more positive note, we all know that the market changes continually.

Perhaps one day the Outback will not be as popular, and we will find a market

for the Legacy wagon again. Until that time, we can only cater to the markets

that exist, we cannot sell to a market that does not exist.

Ever since the early 1990's when the Legacy was introduced, the Legacy

wagon has endured the most struggles in sales and marketing. Had it not been

for the introduction of its big brother the Outback model, the Legacy would

have been gone a long time ago.

The number of conversations you can have online and in the real world is

not necessarily representative of the national market as a whole. The

Subaru market varies considerably across the nation, from areas that

have never even heard of Subaru, to areas where Subaru's outnumber

Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans on the road. While one consumer might be

able to survey a few dozen people at most and draw his or her own

conclusions, we can survey hundreds of thousands and draw more accurate

conclusions.

Since we produce very few of the 2.5i wagons with manual transmission,

they are not advertised on the website. They are however listed as a

model in our brochures.

 

(...)

 

While I do not know all the details or exact reasons, our marketing and

product planning departments make these decisions based on several

factors and after intense research.

Frankly, I am very impressed with Subaru's customer service that they took time to discuss these issues and answer my questions. OTOH, indeed it feels like they would not accept there there is a slight possibiity they handled marketing of Legacy as whole and wagons in particular inefficiently and could have sold more of them.

 

But, maybe we are wrong and have totally skewed view of the U.S. market.... maybe only few people want these cars. It is still hard to believe though, given poor-to-non-existant marketing.

 

As you said, IWSS, you win if you create market and trends, not just follow them. Case in point: "Tribeca. Flying vagina and 5 years too late."

 

It's just sad and perplexing.

[Guest]

Unclemat, feel free to send my comments with your communications to SOA

 

I am done with talking to SOA. Well, except maybe if I could find my way to someone higher in the food chain there.

 

Please contact them directly. Please include your name and VIN of your Subaru.

 

I think I've done more than they could have expected any customer to do as far as helping them advertising these cars (and they didn't treat me very nicely when I had an issue with a dealer, but well).

 

Well, myself I plan to keep my fantastic 05 LGT MT wagon for long time and most likely acquire another (used) one. Later on, I'll see. Well, these cars last long so maybe they will outlast the years of darkness at SOA. If not, I hope there will be other choices.

[Fat Charlie]

Only a few people want these cars, period. Subaru is a niche brand, which makes this call even more stupid. A niche brand building cars but refusing to sell them- because it would be to a niche market?

 

"Subaru Canada bears the expense of production of that vehicle, not Subaru of America."???

WTF? A transmission option currently in production is prohibitively expensive to whom? Is there a separate plant producing nothing but LGT wagons with manuals? I hate car salesmen.

 

"Had it not been for the introduction of its big brother the Outback model, the Legacy would have been gone a long time ago."

For the love of God- the Outback is not a model. It is a trim level. What he's actually saying is "Had it not been for a widely popular premium trim level with a great profit margin, Subaru would have been gone a long time ago." This guy reminds me of every asshole Jeep customer who wanted something for "my Laredo."

"Is it a Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cerokee or Liberty?"

"It's a Laredo."

"Yes. Is it a Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cerokee ot Liberty?" The only ones dumber were the ones who had a "Jeep Sport."

 

And then I start thinking, does my next car have to be an A4 wagon? The BMW 3 wagon is a great package, especially if you don't buy every option in the list. I'm getting ahead of myself, but the car is just a machine. What I plan on replacing it with is always a factor in when to replace it. I'm going to have it for several years, but what other makes do I need to pay attention to? I didn't buy a Subaru until 3 years after the WRX came out, but I was watching Subaru. In late 04 I was still in the desert, but I was watching Subaru. When I got home, I hadn't even started drinking before I was shopping for my LGT. I picked it up on my last day of out-processing from active duty. I love my car. It's wonderful and I don't feel disappointed with it at all. I had two Accord sedans in a row. I'm prety certain I won't have two Subarus in a row.

[DukeTrout]

I have to admit I am encouraged by the depth of their communications with unclemat, even if I'm discouraged by the content.

 

Frankly, from what isn't said in their communications, as much as what is being said, I think there is a simple, personal, political reason for the direction SOA is taking with the LGT wagon. I've seen that kind of behavior within my own company, and had to excuse it to customers. I don't excuse it any more. Sometimes it makes me unpopular, but I'll take honesty over popularity these days.

 

My guess is that somewhere in the upper-level politics between Subaru corporate and SOA, there is a conflict. Someone at Subaru brass asked someone at SOA sales why they don't sell more sporty wagons, implying that they can't sell their way out of a wet paper bag. SOA sales guy said that wagons don't sell in the US, then manipulated the marketing and supply of the LGT 5MT wagon and eventually the LGT wagon in general in order to prove his/her point. Even the way the numbers are quoted in the quarterly sales reports, so that it is pretty much impossible to decipher how many LGT wagons are sold, were/are manipulated to this end.

 

Yes, I'm an amateur conspiracy theorist, but it's scary how often I'm right.

 

It would be interesting to crunch the SOC numbers in comparison to SOA. With the LGT 5mt wagon and the funky pricing they have due to currency changes, that would be a nice model to look at for the viability of a LGT sport wagon in the US.